Duty to Convert

[P. M. Thorne]

JCarl writes: Sorry I had to do it, but how do you pull God away from the Bible?

For now, I am not sure what to say except that I discuss God, without mentioning the Bible, to see where someone is. If he/she mentions the Bible, then I assume they are of some Christian belief, and depending upon how they present themselves I can usually tell whether they are church-going. It takes very little conversation to know how adamant they are, and whether they want to share or preach. I do not usually mention the Bible until they do. Why? Because, if one does not believe the Bible, quoting it will only annoy or confuse them.

JCarl: “You said that it isn't your job to tell people about Jesus……”

Did I say that?

JCarl: Hey I got no problem with philosophy and the reading/studying of it. But I feel if you--by "you" I mean anybody who is a Christian--want to take some philosophy and apply it to your life, it should line up with what the Bible says and stand up for what the Bible says to be true.

What if I read Neitzsche and Schopenhauer, atheists, both? I repeat, Spinoza made no claims to be a Christian. (Remember, God spoke through the jaw bone of an ass, according to scripture.)

JCarl: We're only able to have this stuff by the Holy Spirit guidance. It can't be on our own.

I hope you are not saying that only Christians can behave themselves. Remember, the sun shines on the just and the unjust, according to scripture.

Jcarl: Worry about it? Nah. But I personally strive to become more complete in Christ. I am always in need of grace, but I work to become more like Him, for His glory.

Our differences probably lie mainly in our approach, so to speak. You say you “need” grace; I say, we “have” grace; you say you strive, and to me it is more about being willing to receive; you say that you work to become more like Him, for His glory. I say that everything we are taught is for our own edification, and therefore, it stands to reason, that if we are “in good shape” we can do better with ourselves and with others, thereby glorifying God.

THIS IS IMPORTANT, J: We may commence with self discipline, succeeding and failing, striving and hoping, but as we learn the essence of His power and the depth of His love, we do what we do because we love God. Then, and then only do we truly experience the hope of our salvation, the richness of our calling, and the peace of our relationship with the One who created all things, who is above all, through all, and within us all. Whereas you may skip over other things I say, try not to misread this. It is so very important.

JCarl:We just did a thing about this in youth. Three "tests" of living out Christianity are: 1) Can the person tell you when they began a relationship with Christ? 2) Did their life change in anyway at all? 3)Does their lifestyle--their everyday lifestyle--reflect Christ.

Who are those who would test you? Guidance is good, and this is what adults should do, by example and by their words. But I do not like this “Are you really a Christian?” testing thing. Sorry.

As regards all you had to say about accepting Christ to avoid Hell…... Hmm. There is just no way that I believe anything to avoid going to Hell. And this was true even before I studied about Hell. If I were to compare, living is much scarier than dying.

K. Carl: “Depends on what you mean by "accept what is". To just say that," I'm imperfect," and to accept that…………….”

Sorry, I thought you would know what I meant. My bad. IMO: By “accepting what is” I meant accepting what God has done. We do not “find” God, he is always here. We do not lose Him; He cannot be lost. When we draw “away from God,” or “near to God” that is but a symbolic statement. The drawing away is in attitude and behavior, but He is always there. Drawing near, is in attitude and behavior, He is always near. It has all been done, grace is already at work. The main difference between us and an unbeliever is that we believe. This does not mean we will be richer, wiser, healthier, or safer. It simply means that we believe. Beyond that, I do not know. I have observed no other consistent differences. If you have you are one step ahead of me. Not that “believing” is any small matter; it is not, but I think many would have the differences be more tangible, when they are truly not.

JCarl “Crucifying the flesh,”

(symbolic) I understand that part, based upon scripture.

JCarl: if we are to expose ourselves, or anyone else for that matter, to stuff that can sweep us away from Christ's teaching before we are firmly planted in the Word of God, we are making a big mistake.

Yes, but still, we must never assume that we have fully apprehended. Anyone can trip and fall, regardless of how deep are the roots. We are not trees, and the world is not a hurricane. The busyness of this earth is enough in itself to stifle even the best of us; therefore, we must always give most earnest heed to whether we are putting “first things first.” Things can sneak up on us! Yes, they can, and usually do, if we are not watchful. There are many old Christians who are depressed and discouraged, trying hard to hang on. We must always keep some part of us as a little child, enthusiastic, believing, seeking to learn, and laughing at our own goofiness, shortcomings and so forth. We must stay pliable; because as Tso says, “if we become brittle, we will break.”
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YOU WROTE: I looked in Strong's Concordance and I didn't see that phase "nation founded by people who believed in Christ," so if you could tell me where that is I would be most appreciative.
Nevertheless, I think I know what that verse is probably saying. It's probably saying that there is no nation that is founded by man's principles that at the same time, believed in Christ. That's my guess.

This was in answer to my statement as follows:

“ We remember there was no United States when these verses were written; that is, no “nation founded by people who believed in Christ,” no “God Bless America,” song. Much of this nation (USA) is Christian, at least in name. To get our intent across—I think, using the word –world- too freely could seem contradictory. If you disagree, so be it. This is just another of my pet concerns. (I suppose if no one questions you, then go for it.) ”

NOW I SAY THIS: Where did I say any of that was in the Bible? I did not. I think you missed my point. I was simply saying that –at the time the Bible was written—there was no Christian Nation, and so forth. You must have been tired, or……..?


JCarl: Also, if you say that salvation is a process, then what are the steps in this process?

As you have said: Studying, living each day to be better than the previous one, growing in grace, growing in love, allowing ourselves to have the mind of God, learning tolerance, learning obedience, learning to learn, growing in patience, figuring things out for ourselves………………..

Sanctification means “setting apart,” this is a given. So, where does it say to work out your sanctification with fear and trembling? You sure pick your way of interpreting scriptures!

JCarl:When I exercise, I am making something that I already have stronger, so that it shows more. ………. Does that make sense?

Sure, and you think that is not a process?
>
Oh my; I think we had best leave Abraham be for the time being.
>

JCarl: I cannot think of one ritual that doesn't have some symbol behind it.

Okay! I will give you that one.

JCarl: Yeh the Holy Spirit works in both the Bible and me. But just speaking of myself, I couldn't by myself show others Christ. It would take the Holy Spirit, and a Bible is helpful.

This made me laugh. Well, at least you prioritized the HS ahead of the B. Oh my, and what about others? Would their bodies not house the Holy Spirit; or do you just assume that anyone who is not waiving the Christian flag is a heathen. (That sounds really awful, but I really want to know, because evangelizing Christians will most often talk to a person as thought that person just fell out of the well and bumped his head on the pulley!)
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………

“ Ah, it is a matter of words, but I still prefer the word “transformed,” because if that does not happen, there will be no conforming to his teachings. Right? Of course, it is right! -----from PMT ”

JCarl responds: I simply take the two as synoyms and leave it at that………

What synonyms? Conform and transform do not share the same meanings! One can conform to all manner of things without being transformed. The transformation is what makes it real. Once transformed, we conform to God’s will; however, if the conformation takes place without a transformation, then the conformation would be in deeds only. Beside this, we must consider the translation.

Transformed: Rom. 12:2 (and Matt. 17:2 & Mark 9:2 “transfigured”) 3339, metamorphos/transfigure
In other words, the same Greek word, #3339 was used in these verses in KJ translation.

Transformed: II Cor. l l:14 …~speaking of the devil and his angels 3345 …. transfigure/disguise
Transforming: II Cor. 11:13 (ditto) (ditto)
We see in II Cor. that KJ, for a different Greek word, used the same translation, still clear for the most part.

Conform: Rom. 8:29 ( & Phil. 3:10 “conformable”) .. 4882 ..in company with/on an errand
Conform: Rom. 12:2 …4964.. conform to the same pattern

Now, to our dictionary on conform and transform:

Transform: Change form, appearance, function, character.

Conform: make similar, bring into agreement, to act in accordance with rules.


PMT wrote:So, you like ending with a verse. Here is one of my favorites, and has been since I was fourteen. See what you think.“Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the Lord said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.” For what ever reason, that verse had a real impact, even at that young age.pmt ”

JCarl responded: Different I will say that.

AND PMT ASKS: So, what message did you get from it?____________________________
JCarl WRITES: Alright. I'll email you or something.

I did a special post on this, yestereday.

You will notice that I responded to some degree at least on your entire postings last. If you decide to email, the messages could be more specific so that we are not trying to cover so much at once. Take care. Chow!

 

[P. M. Thorne]

NEILDO-----

I was reading your last long post again, and noticed this, from you: “Note: I'd really like to know what knowledge you have of God, just to hear your side of it all. And it's not to help prove or disprove any argument and whatnot. Send me a PM or something.”

What is a PM?

You know I would be happy to share, but never with any intention of converting you. I too like to hear others’ points of view. Therefore, you need not admonish me about preaching. I try to convert no one. My aim is and has been, to encourage others to think, and this seems to be your main theme as well. Therefore, I think we can assume that in this we agree. QUOTE: “I'd rather people do the things they do because they came to their own conclusion, . . . than ‘just because.”

I am rather relaxed in where I stand, but I had my period of venting. I think this was because for years, I had listened in silence, lest I offend, while I was actually being questioned and offended. Then one day a thought occurred to me, like "Why is it okay for ME to be offended?" Now, I respond to such goings on, but I always try to respond in love. Not that I always succeed, but I try, and trying does make a difference. I still become a bit perturbed if someone implies that I am not up to par with them, and right then, I put the brakes on my temper. I do rather well, working both sides, so to speak, because all I want from it, if anything, is more understanding in this world of ours.

One thing I notice is that many who call themselves Atheists or Agnostics are just as avid in their preaching as any born again enthusiast. Another thing I notice is that many assume that if you believe A then you believe B, and so forth, and not only so, but that if you believe anything it is probably wrong. I guess what I am saying, is that any time we wish to change the behavior of another, we may crowd very close to becoming that which we are against.

In any event, I would still like to know what a PM is.
Chow!

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Neildo wrote: 128 have the reason why he left philosophy and his rules of conduct.

Who left philosophy? Not Spinoza....

Here is a bit from Volume 8, The Story of Civilization:

We love Spinoza especially among the philosophers because he was also a saint, because he lived, as well as wrote, philosophy. The virtures praised by the great religions were honored and embodied in the outcast who could find a home in none of the religions, since none would let him conceive God in terms that science could accept. Looking back upon that dedicated life and concentrated thought, we feel in them an element of nobility that encourages us to think well of mankind. Let us admit half of the terrible picture that Swift drew of humanity; let us agree that in every generation of man's history, and almost everywhere, we find superstition, hypocrisy, corruption, cruelty, crime, and war: in the balance against them we place the long roster of poets, composers, artists, scientists, philosophers, and saints. That same species upon which poor Swift revenged the frustrations of his flesh wrote the plays of Shakespeare, the music of Bach and Handel, the odes of Keats, the Republic of Plato, the Principia of Newton, and the Ethics of Spinoza, it built the Parthenon and pained the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel; it conveived and chreished, even if it crucified Christ. Man did all this, let him never despair.

Interesting comments, I thought.

Glad you are having fun. ------- pmt

 

[alain]

"What is a PM? "

lol, Personal Messege

 

[Neildo]

Who left philosophy? Not Spinoza....

Sorry, I botched that. It should be "..why he left everything FOR philosophy". I typed it right in the post before than one, and mistyped it in the 2nd, heh.

I was reading your last long post again...

Hey, I'm not the only one!

Another thing I notice is that many assume that if you believe A then you believe B, and so forth, and not only so, but that if you believe anything it is probably wrong.

Yeah, I know whatcha mean about generalizations. I'm an agnostic who believes in a higher being.

As for anything we believe in which we have no true knowledge or proof of, and us most likely being wrong in those beliefs, that's correct. However, I don't see anything wrong with that so long as there's some sort of positive message in those beliefs and the person doesn't get too involved with it where it all IS taken as truth. I learned a lot from Mother Goose and Brothers Grym, but I'm not naive enough to take those myths as actual fact.. unless there is proof shown to me, heh.

I guess what I am saying, is that any time we wish to change the behavior of another, we may crowd very close to becoming that which we are against.

Lol, I know whatcha mean again.

- N

P.S. And yes, PM means "Private Message".

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Okay, you guys, just laugh at me if you like! I rather thought that was what it meant, but I try to assume nothing, (even if I look a bit uninformed, or out of things; eh, so what? Now, I suppose I need to figure out how to do that. Hmm. I seem to recollect seeing that option somewhere. Adios.

pmt .....PS/ N- I know you are not the only one who writes long msgs. I was just attempting to differentiate from the short one. Interesting, how we are so suspicious of one another. This is because we are, in truth, strangers, I am sure.

 

[Neildo]

pmt .....PS/ N- I know you are not the only one who writes long msgs. I was just attempting to differentiate from the short one. Interesting, how we are so suspicious of one another. This is because we are, in truth, strangers, I am sure.

Nah, not suspicious, I was just having fun with it, hence the smilies.

- N

 

[pavlosmarcos]

I am very busy refuting lies and clearing misconceptions in other threads.

THIS IS CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT YOU SAY NEXT

Islam does not tell us that we have a duty as such to convert people to Islam, Islam tells us to make people aware of Allah Almighty, but never forcing them to convert or making it a duty:

AND I SUGGEST YOU PRACTISE WHAT YOU PREACH

I like to give my opinion, and not push my views, something you should learn.
when you answer this, if you do,there's no need for you to be abusive, as I have not.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Proud Muslim no longer exists.
He is gone from this forum.
I would not advice that you wait for an answer from him.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

dreamwalker
if this is true then it's good news, as his views were somewhat bia'sed,
however he wont be forgotten will he .

 

[MarcAC]

If you're religious, do you feel that you have a duty to try to convince other people to join your faith? Why, or why not? Is it more important to convert non-believers, or people of other religions?

As a Christian I see my duty to convert as a corollary of my belief. It's like this ad I've seen a few times on TV with regards to drugs. The girl stands by the peer on the shore of the lake and sees her friend struggling in the water, crying for help, drowning but simply turns her back. It's just like that for a Christian who cares at all about another human soul, and just like that when you see your friends destroying their physical health with drugs and you don't try to convince them to stop. The question is how far would or should you go? How do you try to stop someone from committing suicide? Present some verbal arguments and let them choose if they make sense? Do anything in your power to stop them including putting them in straight jackets and declaring them mentally unstable? As Okinrus said earlier it is our duty as Christians to present our arguments and live our lives then leave it up to the individual to make the choice. That's the whole point of free will. It is not our duty to ride around with swords slaughtering any who aren't for Christ in some Christian crusade, or bombing buses, or twin towers, or barracks. What would be the point of free will if we did that?

 

[P. M. Thorne]

JCarl....I was just double checking to make sure I answered everyone. FYI ..When I said email, I suppose I should have said PRIVATE MESSAGE. This way you need not disclose your email address. Or, (aside from your story of Abraham, and wanting to know my thoughts on Hell), we can just go with the way we have been doing it, but I did try to shorten it. Anyhow, I have to go, so I can keep some promises. Have a good one!

 

[Yazdajerd]

Dear vienna,
I want to thnk you for trying to convince others since you are a negative person. A doctor doesn't hide his newly discovered cure or he would be a murderer!!
The verses you mentioned from the Quran are all out of context.
First those that deal with how to face the infidels are talking about rules of war and how to face your enemy on the battlefield not their houses.....By God, what do you expect from a man on the field, to throw his sword and tell his enemy let's talk logic while they rip him opoen with their swords!!!!
The other verses talking about the people of the book refer, as it is uasual in the Quran, to the Jews mainly. What do you want from the muslims, to trust the jews of Yathrib who time over time didn't live up to the agreements and tried to kill the prophet several times and sided with opressors of Mecca against them although they had a mutual defence agreement...... you wont trust your brothr if he did that!!!!!
The other part deals with day of judjement which is not relevant to the issue here!!

 

[Yazan]

If someone is trying to kill himself, are you going to stop him?
I guess yes
But the question in here is why?
Is it just a duty?
Are you trying to behave as a hero?
I guess any of those who will, are going to do it because they believe that this guy is just going to harm himself by taking such a step. It is not going to bring him any good.

Therefore, if I believe that my religion is the right one, brings happiness to humanity, preventing disbelievers from going to hell, yes for sure it is a duty to convert them to my religion.
But not because I believe that I’m always right, and others should follow me

 

[jcarl]

This will be my last post on this thread. PMT, we'll continue this in some other fashion.

For now, I am not sure what to say except that I discuss God, without mentioning the Bible, to see where someone is. If he/she mentions the Bible, then I assume they are of some Christian belief, and depending upon how they present themselves I can usually tell whether they are church-going. It takes very little conversation to know how adamant they are, and whether they want to share or preach. I do not usually mention the Bible until they do. Why? Because, if one does not believe the Bible, quoting it will only annoy or confuse them.[/B]

Ok, sounds reasonable. I personally tend to be slightly more aggressive than you, but theres the difference betw. you and me.

JCarl: “You said that it isn't your job to tell people about Jesus……”

Did I say that?

You implied it:

JCarl: But it is still our job to show the love of Christ. That means witnessing(all forms)

Our job? I think I will give up, because we have really different thoughts on this. I do not wish to battle points. I told you what I think, and you disagree, so there it is.

or at least that's what I took it to mean.

JCarl: Hey I got no problem with philosophy and the reading/studying of it. But I feel if you--by "you" I mean anybody who is a Christian--want to take some philosophy and apply it to your life, it should line up with what the Bible says and stand up for what the Bible says to be true.

What if I read Neitzsche and Schopenhauer, atheists, both? I repeat, Spinoza made no claims to be a Christian. (Remember, God spoke through the jaw bone of an ass, according to scripture.)

Let me say it this way(Speaking only for myself): Around my age is the time when I start to form my "worldview"--that is, how I view man, society, and whatnot. Now if I--as a Christian--were to attempt to apply some philosopher's ideas on man, society, whatever to my view of the world, those ideas ought to line up with what the Bible says. If something Spinoza says fits that mold, then run with it--that's my feeling. If it doesn't then leave it alone.

Now it is one thing to read someone's ideas and another to agree with or believe them--that is, to accept them as truth and apply them. Am I making sense?

JCarl: We're only able to have this stuff by the Holy Spirit guidance. It can't be on our own.

I hope you are not saying that only Christians can behave themselves. Remember, the sun shines on the just and the unjust, according to scripture.

No I'm not saying that at all. It is my experience--however limited it might be--that if I try to do something with the attitude of "I can do this all by myself, w/o God's help" I am probably going to mess it up. This especially is true when it comes to what the Bible says. The Bible says,"Don't lie." For me to say," by my own will power, I will not lie," is the foundation for failure. That's my take on it.

THIS IS IMPORTANT, J: We may commence with self discipline, succeeding and failing, striving and hoping, but as we learn the essence of His power and the depth of His love, we do what we do because we love God. Then, and then only do we truly experience the hope of our salvation, the richness of our calling, and the peace of our relationship with the One who created all things, who is above all, through all, and within us all. Whereas you may skip over other things I say, try not to misread this. It is so very important.

Very encouraging. Now all I have to do is put that into practice.

JCarl:We just did a thing about this in youth. Three "tests" of living out Christianity are: 1) Can the person tell you when they began a relationship with Christ? 2) Did their life change in anyway at all? 3)Does their lifestyle--their everyday lifestyle--reflect Christ.

Who are those who would test you? Guidance is good, and this is what adults should do, by example and by their words. But I do not like this “Are you really a Christian?” testing thing. Sorry.

Don't think that it was a "how to judge" session. We were given a magnifying glass so as to see if other people's faith proved true, but the more important part of the lesson was when we turn the magnifying glass on ourselves. The idea was How do we individually stand up to this test. If God were to examine our lives by this rubric, how would we stand up?

J. Carl: “Depends on what you mean by "accept what is". To just say that," I'm imperfect," and to accept that…………….”

Sorry, I thought you would know what I meant. My bad. IMO: By “accepting what is” I meant accepting what God has done. We do not “find” God, he is always here. We do not lose Him; He cannot be lost. When we draw “away from God,” or “near to God” that is but a symbolic statement. The drawing away is in attitude and behavior, but He is always there. Drawing near, is in attitude and behavior, He is always near. It has all been done, grace is already at work. The main difference between us and an unbeliever is that we believe. This does not mean we will be richer, wiser, healthier, or safer. It simply means that we believe. Beyond that, I do not know. I have observed no other consistent differences. If you have you are one step ahead of me. Not that “believing” is any small matter; it is not, but I think many would have the differences be more tangible, when they are truly not.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks PMT

JCarl: if we are to expose ourselves, or anyone else for that matter, to stuff that can sweep us away from Christ's teaching before we are firmly planted in the Word of God, we are making a big mistake.

Yes, but still, we must never assume that we have fully apprehended. Anyone can trip and fall, regardless of how deep are the roots. We are not trees, and the world is not a hurricane. The busyness of this earth is enough in itself to stifle even the best of us; therefore, we must always give most earnest heed to whether we are putting “first things first.” Things can sneak up on us! Yes, they can, and usually do, if we are not watchful. There are many old Christians who are depressed and discouraged, trying hard to hang on. We must always keep some part of us as a little child, enthusiastic, believing, seeking to learn, and laughing at our own goofiness, shortcomings and so forth. We must stay pliable; because as Tso says, “if we become brittle, we will break.”

This is all true.
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YOU WROTE: I looked in Strong's Concordance and I didn't see that phase "nation founded by people who believed in Christ," so if you could tell me where that is I would be most appreciative.
Nevertheless, I think I know what that verse is probably saying. It's probably saying that there is no nation that is founded by man's principles that at the same time, believed in Christ. That's my guess.

This was in answer to my statement as follows:

“ We remember there was no United States when these verses were written; that is, no “nation founded by people who believed in Christ,” no “God Bless America,” song. Much of this nation (USA) is Christian, at least in name. To get our intent across—I think, using the word –world- too freely could seem contradictory. If you disagree, so be it. This is just another of my pet concerns. (I suppose if no one questions you, then go for it.) ”[/B][/Quote]

Ah I get what my problem was. I interpreted the phrase "these verses" as to say: ...when the following verse(s) were written. Your quote of "nation founded..." seemed to confirm this. Silly me.

You must have been tired, or……..?

Probably was.

JCarl: Also, if you say that salvation is a process, then what are the steps in this process?

As you have said: Studying, living each day to be better than the previous one, growing in grace, growing in love, allowing ourselves to have the mind of God, learning tolerance, learning obedience, learning to learn, growing in patience, figuring things out for ourselves………………..

What happens if you die, say two minutes after you accepted Christ. You haven't had a chance to grow in grace or have the mind of God. Are you still saved? The thief on the cross didn't have a chance to do all these things, but Jesus still told him,"This day you will be with me in Paradise."

Sanctification means “setting apart,” this is a given. So, where does it say to work out your sanctification with fear and trembling? You sure pick your way of interpreting scriptures!

Sanctification can also mean to purify or to make perfect. Now when we accept Christ, we are "made perfect" in that when we come before the judgement seat of Christ, no charge may be brought against us. Scofield defines this as positional perfection, citing Heb. 10:14. Once we get past this and begin to mature spiritually we become more like Christ. This is where all the stuff you mentioned about having the mind of God, and grace, love, etc. comes into play. Scofield defined this as relative perfection, citing Gal. 3:3 and 2 Cor. 7:1 as the broad statements of this.

Now to say"work out your sanctification" would be a redundancy because the working out--the perfecting holiness--is the sanctification. Look at 2 Pet. 1:10 and 2 Cor. 13:5, which have a similar message. He is saying to examine ourselves so as to see if how we are living measures up to the salvation we have been given--that is, if we are indeed showing that we are saved. It seems to me like salvation is assumed in these passages.

JCarl:When I exercise, I am making something that I already have stronger, so that it shows more. ………. Does that make sense?

Sure, and you think that is not a process?

I had the muscles to begin with; the exercising makes them stronger, and shows them to more people.

Oh my; I think we had best leave Abraham be for the time being.

Fine by me.

JCarl: I cannot think of one ritual that doesn't have some symbol behind it.

Okay! I will give you that one.

JCarl: Yeh the Holy Spirit works in both the Bible and me. But just speaking of myself, I couldn't by myself show others Christ. It would take the Holy Spirit, and a Bible is helpful.

Let me clarify. By my own power, I couldn't show others Christ. This is because if all I had was my own power, I wouldn't know Christ to begin with. Instead, Christ in me--working through me--allows others to see Him in me. Wow thats a lot of pronouns, but I THINK it makes sense.

This made me laugh. Well, at least you prioritized the HS ahead of the B. Oh my, and what about others? Would their bodies not house the Holy Spirit; or do you just assume that anyone who is not waiving the Christian flag is a heathen.

No but people are able to see Christ in me. That may lead others to Christ because they may see something in me that is different and they inquire about it. This may prove to someone that I am what I say I am, that I actually live out the Christian life I profess to believe in.

(That sounds really awful, but I really want to know, because evangelizing Christians will most often talk to a person as thought that person just fell out of the well and bumped his head on the pulley!)

lol
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………

“ Ah, it is a matter of words, but I still prefer the word “transformed,” because if that does not happen, there will be no conforming to his teachings. Right? Of course, it is right! -----from PMT ”

JCarl responds: I simply take the two as synoyms and leave it at that………

What synonyms? Conform and transform do not share the same meanings! One can conform to all manner of things without being transformed. The transformation is what makes it real. Once transformed, we conform to God’s will; however, if the conformation takes place without a transformation, then the conformation would be in deeds only. Beside this, we must consider the translation.

Transformed: Rom. 12:2 (and Matt. 17:2 & Mark 9:2 “transfigured”) 3339, metamorphos/transfigure
In other words, the same Greek word, #3339 was used in these verses in KJ translation.

Transformed: II Cor. l l:14 …~speaking of the devil and his angels 3345 …. transfigure/disguise
Transforming: II Cor. 11:13 (ditto) (ditto)
We see in II Cor. that KJ, for a different Greek word, used the same translation, still clear for the most part.

Conform: Rom. 8:29 ( & Phil. 3:10 “conformable”) .. 4882 ..in company with/on an errand
Conform: Rom. 12:2 …4964.. conform to the same pattern

Now, to our dictionary on conform and transform:

Transform: Change form, appearance, function, character.

Conform: make similar, bring into agreement, to act in accordance with rules.[/B][/Quote]

Ok ok I admit it I was mistaken. My kinda took the two together because i have a notion of once your transformed you conform to Christ. Oh darn, I guess this means I have to throw away the "infallible" title.

PMT wrote:So, you like ending with a verse. Here is one of my favorites, and has been since I was fourteen. See what you think.“Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the Lord said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.” For what ever reason, that verse had a real impact, even at that young age.pmt ”

JCarl responded: Different I will say that.

AND PMT ASKS: So, what message did you get from it?

____________________________
No matter how much we do, our work is never done. This side of heaven, our mission of sharing the Gospel is never finished.

 

[Icarus Wings]

I'm an atheist simply because I have no real purpose for a god of any kind. If you make your choices acording to the rules of some book or the word of a deity, its not truly your choice that your making. It is the choice of some otherworldly entity that may or may not exist.
And to a lesser extent, I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my own life. It makes me feel strange that there is something somewhere governing my fate without my consent.
Belief in a religion is fine by me, Hell, you might even be right. But beleif that all other religions are completely wrong is just plain ignorant. I'm sorry, but it is. Vienna, Islam (from what i've gleaned from various Muslims) Is not an inherently violent religion. Just as you, aparently, do not believe in every single part of your Holy Book of choice (Love thy neighbor, anyone?) A Muslim does not nessicerily have to believe in every tennet of his/her faith. For instance, the parts about killing people.
Plus, just as those who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity are not "true Christians", Muslims who commit like attrocities are not "true Muslims"

Anyone who is a member of these faiths correct me if I'm wrong here.
After all, I'm just an atheist and philosopher.

 

[johnahmed]

ISLAM GAINING IN RAWANDA SOURCE =INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE

http://www.iht.com/articles/513696.html

When 800,000 of their Tutsi countrymen were slaughtered in a massacre that began 10 years ago this week, many Rwandans lost faith not only in their government but also in their religion. Today, in what is still a predominantly Roman Catholic country, Islam is the fastest-growing religion.
.
Many people, disgusted by the role some Catholic priests and nuns played in the genocide, have shunned organized religion altogether, and many more have turned to Islam..................................

 

[Al hussein]

I'm an atheist simply because I have no real purpose for a god of any kind. If you make your choices acording to the rules of some book or the word of a deity, its not truly your choice that your making. It is the choice of some otherworldly entity that may or may not exist.
And to a lesser extent, I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my own life. It makes me feel strange that there is something somewhere governing my fate without my consent.
Belief in a religion is fine by me, Hell, you might even be right. But beleif that all other religions are completely wrong is just plain ignorant. I'm sorry, but it is. Vienna, Islam (from what i've gleaned from various Muslims) Is not an inherently violent religion. Just as you, aparently, do not believe in every single part of your Holy Book of choice (Love thy neighbor, anyone?) A Muslim does not nessicerily have to believe in every tennet of his/her faith. For instance, the parts about killing people.
Plus, just as those who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity are not "true Christians", Muslims who commit like attrocities are not "true Muslims"

Anyone who is a member of these faiths correct me if I'm wrong here.
After all, I'm just an atheist and philosopher.

atheist are afraid to admit that there is god to burn in fire of hell
i ask u a ques
how did u come earth(dont say parents) who created your soul
whe u die where do u go? if u are wiped off what was te reason of your comin to earth

 

[Thersites]

atheist are afraid to admit that there is god to burn in fire of hell

God is to burn in fire of hell? Bloody good idea.

i ask u a ques
how did u come earth(dont say parents)

Grandparents.

who created your soul

What evidence do you have that you or I have souls? What do we have them for, if we do? Who or what created whoever or whatever created your (or my) soul?

whe u die where do u go?[/quoite] where were you before you were born?[qupote] if u are wiped off what was te reason of your comin to earth

If you aren't wiped off what was the reason for your coming to earth?

 

[P. M. Thorne]

To Thersites: What kinds of answers are those? What purpose can they serve. I, of course, do not know you, but your question and statements brought something to mind. Durant made a comment about Nietzsche barely escaping being a believer, or something like that. I just have to wonder, when you do not believe in God, are you afraid that you might change your mind and have to deal with people like you? I am kind of kidding, and then I may not be, because so many who tag themselves as being athiestic seem to need constant reinforcement, "lest they slip?" Could this be? Because you surely have a religion which you expound, and protect, with every bit as much vigor as any Bible-thumping evangelical I have ever met. Yeah, you do.

Regards, pmt