Does God make mistakes?

[lightgigantic]

List of Genetic Diseases

so, assuming that one doesn't have any of these conditions, they are not flawed?

 

[spidergoat]

Nope. Do the parents of Down's Syndrome children also have Down's Syndrome?

 

[Lori_7]

so, assuming that one doesn't have any of these conditions, they are not flawed?

the baseline is flawed.

 

[lightgigantic]

Nope. Do the parents of Down's Syndrome children also have Down's Syndrome?

so if one has offspring that don't have any of these conditions, then one is not flawed?

 

[spidergoat]

False. One is still flawed because it depends on who you mate with. You could have normal children, then marry someone else, and then have flawed children. This applies, believe it or not, to the pious, like Sarah Palin.

 

[lightgigantic]

the baseline is flawed.

two points

- I don't think genetics is the baseline (since even the genetically perfect still suffer immensely under the grip of conditioned nature)

- "flawed" is not the best word to describe it, ... unless of course one is harboring the desire to usurp the position of god (which is arguably what the living entity finds so alluring about conditioned nature in the first place)

 

[lightgigantic]

False. One is still flawed because it depends on who you mate with. You could have normal children, then marry someone else, and then have flawed children. This applies, believe it or not, to the pious, like Sarah Palin.

So one is flawed to the degree that genetically abhorrent offspring appear in one's family tree?

 

[Lori_7]

two points

- I don't think genetics is the baseline (since even the genetically perfect still suffer immensely under the grip of conditioned nature)

- "flawed" is not the best word to describe it, ... unless of course one is harboring the desire to usurp the position of god (which is arguably what the living entity finds so alluring about conditioned nature in the first place)

what genetically perfect? isn't our conditioned nature a result of genetics as well? what is genetically perfect? i think sin is genetic and it makes us suffer. not only in our own skin, but by what we're conditioned to as well. and i think when sin is eradicated from our genetics, we will be able to commune without suffering at all.

perhaps that is perfection. 777.

 

[lightgigantic]

what genetically perfect?

someone who doesn't score a tick on spidergoat's list I guess

isn't our conditioned nature a result of genetics as well? what is genetically perfect? i think sin is genetic and it makes us suffer. not only in our own skin, but by what we're conditioned to as well. and i think when sin is eradicated from our genetics, we will be able to commune without suffering at all.

perhaps that is perfection. 777.

I think its more that genetics is a consequence of conditioned nature, since its all about being outfitted with a material body to better pursue one's material desires

 

[Lori_7]

someone who doesn't score a tick on spidergoat's list I guess

i think it goes way beyond that, to an existence that we can't really even imagine. but that doesn't mean we can't look at the indicators and believe in the possibility.

I think its more that genetics is a consequence of conditioned nature, since its all about being outfitted with a material body to better pursue one's material desires

which came first, the body or the desire?

 

[spidergoat]

So one is flawed to the degree that genetically abhorrent offspring appear in one's family tree?

Exactly. And genetics cannot be our fault. Our fault, as stated in the Bible, is knowledge of good and evil.

 

[NMSquirrel]

About 15 years.

and before that where were you with god?
or
where was god in your life?
he is always with us, even if we don't see him..when one becomes a christian we learn where to look..

How do you equate " understanding of God through scripture" with "doing as you're told"

i think of bible thumpers..ones who quote the bible like it was written by gods own hand..
its not a rule book..its a guide..

When someone brings the argument "God allows babies to be raped", either that or He is not omnipotent, or omniscient. It suggests they are basing it on scripture. So I base my counter argument on the same, or a blend of different scriptures.
jan.

i have noticed on here that when atheist argue against the bible, there focus tends to be on the old testament..its hard to get their heads out of it..i posted a verse awhile back..

 

[Big Chiller]

You're judging God on human terms but He isn't judged on any terms. One way to look at this is God absolutely owns all His creations that's not how we own things He owns everything absolutely in that nothing can exist without Him so He has absolute rights over everything else.

Which is what earthly despots have thought and said also. But notice you are justifying God via an ownership metaphor. And you have just justified an unloving God who owns children but doesn't give a shit if they are tortured to death, which is God's right since he owns them. Fine, he owns them and it's his right, but he isn't loving.

Loving is unGodly though because love is something we do out of needs and we have needs due to circumstances we can't control. That means loving is a weakness or limitation. God can do good for someone, He can also do bad for someone.
It should be noted that we love or hate due to circumstances we can't control.

 

[lightgigantic]

i think it goes way beyond that, to an existence that we can't really even imagine. but that doesn't mean we can't look at the indicators and believe in the possibility.

My point is that you can label them flaws of a sort, but even people who don't have them are flawed (or more precisely, tortured by their material desires) so there is a grander or more subtle aspect to conditioned nature than one's body or the hereditary issues that gave rise to it

which came first, the body or the desire?

desire (which consequently gives rise to corporeal existence and a host of other desires)

 

[lightgigantic]

Exactly

then it doesn't explain why people/couples who don't have them experience what you could call "flaws" well outside the prospect of giving rise to genetically abhorrent children

And genetics cannot be our fault.

really?
You have some idea how genetics stands aloof from notions of karma?

Our fault, as stated in the Bible, is knowledge of good and evil.

or to put it another way, the pursuit of material desire in an inferior universe that bestows birth, death, old age and disease

 

[spidergoat]

what genetically perfect? isn't our conditioned nature a result of genetics as well? what is genetically perfect? i think sin is genetic and it makes us suffer. not only in our own skin, but by what we're conditioned to as well. and i think when sin is eradicated from our genetics, we will be able to commune without suffering at all.

perhaps that is perfection. 777.

No, conditioning is culture, not instinct. The Bible says sin is the result of knowledge, so as long as one remains innocent like an animal, one is free of sin. So sin takes place in the brain (Jesus said it's a sin even to think of doing something bad), we aren't born with it. In science, there is no such thing as perfection genetically, but that view differs from the religious outlook.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Then I really don't understand your perspective.
How do you read scripture then? Do you pick and choose - "I relate to this, I don't relate to that"?

um..what does relate mean to you?

Everyone is afraid of God ... or not?

i'm not afraid of God.(that doesn't mean im gonna go spit in his yard)
you gotta respect anyone who can put up with all the bull humanity has to offer..

Although lately, a desire occured to me to have an attitude like this woman - watch the 4' video (.happiness-project.com/).

i was waiting for the punch line..it never came..

I mean - she seems genuinely happy and confident about the prospect of spirituality and having a spiritual master. Isn't that wonderful?

You too can have a spiritual life without God, call 1-800-666-SATN, we will show you how, free of charge, at no cost to you..just sign here and it will be yours..

by what she said in the video..someone could use Pee Wee Herman as a spiritual master???

Most people I have met who are into spirituality are heavy and grim, or disturbed and insecure,

which one am I?

or something other unappealing to me.

i can accept that

But then issues of showing proper respect comes in, and the consequences of offending. Asking questions is often deemed disrespectful.

only by those that don't know how to answer you..

This is why I prefer to talk to everyone in open forums, even though per se this is not a proper medium for that. But this here is at least a relatively neutral ground.

there is too much gunfire to be neutral..:shrug:

In person, or in private, I would not dare to have such conversations with devotees as I have here, or at least be very uncomfortable, for fear of causing offense.

only by those that don't know how to answer you..

In thinking yourself good/worthy/competent

i don't know about any of that..

enough to not constantly having to fear you will cause offense or otherwise do something wrong.

that's gonna happen no matter what..

you have a right to be here." - I feel very challenged by that.

are you talking generally to all christians or to someone specific?

Well, I would be told something to the effect of "You are just too stupid to understand, but know that this is right!!"

only by those that don't know how to answer you..
(is that considered spamming my own post?)

 

[NMSquirrel]

lol..lori..i clicked your link..it ended as i read the last post..

 

[wynn]

What ideas? All I see are indoctrinated cult members spewing forth their doctrines of hatred and ignorance causing endless conflict, telling us how to live and then doing the exact opposite of what they preach.

But perhaps it is not so bad.
Perhaps this is simply the "human condition", and shouldn't be taken so seriously.

One mangy dog barking at another mangy dog - kind of silly, come to think of it.

If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch!

 

[wynn]

“ How do you read scripture then? Do you pick and choose - "I relate to this, I don't relate to that"?

It has to resonate with reality.

But that means you deem yourself knowledgeable of "reality"!
That is bold!

For instance you read something like "do unto other as you would have them do unto you" or words to that effect. And you relate that to yourself. You then see everything through that perspective (if you choose to).

To me, this means that you see yourself as an instance worthy and relevant enough to function as a source of perspective.

No. But I have an intense willingness to do so (against which I seem helpless), in hindsight and in foresight.

Then that's the part you need to work out,

Yes. And it seems to go back to "thinking myself good/worthy/competent enough to not constantly having to fear I will cause offense or otherwise do something wrong". Which I have so much trouble with.

What if someone told you that "parochial" meant a type of fish, having now read the definition?

I'd probably think I read the wrong definition, especially if the person telling me that "parochial" meant a type of fish would be a theist or someone toward whom I would feel fear.

Most people I have met who are into spirituality are heavy and grim, or disturbed and insecure, or something other unappealing to me.

Why?

I'm not sure I understand what your "why" is referring to.

Who is we?

Ha!
It's "they", actually.

But then issues of showing proper respect comes in, and the consequences of offending. Asking questions is often deemed disrespectful

But you should still ask in order to become clear of the point.

Then I would have to value my clarity above offending others!

This is why I prefer to talk to everyone in open forums, even though per se this is not a proper medium for that. But this here is at least a relatively neutral ground.

So now you have answers and access to answers, what is your position?

I haven't decided yet.

I think of myself as "good" and "worthy"?
How in the rings of Saturn did you arrive at that conclusion?

Perhaps because I am from Pluto ...

Apart from that, where does the "sacrilige lie in your description?

From the perspective of my upbringing, it is a sacrilege, an act of utter vanity to talk like you often do - "It has to resonate with reality" or "But you should still ask in order to become clear of the point".

"You can never hate yourself enough. You can never think yourself stupid enough. The best thing for you to do would be to just disappear. You should go to a dark corner and die of shame." - that is what I usually hear in my mind.
Anything that doesn't sound like that seems like a sacrilege, an act of vanity.