Does God make mistakes?

[wynn]

So do I, but it becomes tedious to keep using prefaces when you are engaged in a long discussion with a person, or a history of discussions with the same people. I expect them to know where I'm coming from.

Interesting. To me, this implies you have quite a bit of trust and respect for yourself, the other person and the idea of discussing things.

I seem to be coming more from the "from scratch" side of things - ie. everything needs to be established anew in each instance of communication.
I try to be ready for everything at all times - which is of course exhausting ...

You don't have to. But the issue of an individual's certainty about their statements is directly connected to the topic of discussion.

I don't understand what you mean by that.

Doreen has brought this up earlier in the thread.

When a person claims something, phrasing it in an objective form, by the act of doing so, they imply they have certainty about the topic of discussion.

Stating, for example, "God doesn't make mistakes" can thus be taken to imply that the maker of that statement has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God.
Stating or implying that one has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God is quite a bold thing to do, isn't it?
(It would be different if one stated "I think that God does not make mistakes"; this would not be a claim to absolute knowledge.)

You should feel just as threatened by the regime/machinary that pushes to axe God from the human pysche, if not more so.
Because once that occurrs, the soul of humans will become hell-bound.
At least with fire and brimstone preachers, we still have a chance to use our mind, and free will, to look things up for ourselves.

Point taken. I suppose I have been taking for granted that my craving for a higher purpose has received some kind of answer, as opposed to the inquiry being written off as "mere biomechanical impulses".

I do constantly, and they have no answer for my arguments, much like the atheists. Their reasoning (like the atheists) is based on doctrines thought out by humans, taken from scripture, then modified to fit that particular time.
When the doctrine is put against the scripture, it becomes very obvious. And the adherent is then faced with a dilema. Do they get back to the original meaning, or do they carry on with their doctrine, meaning they have some serious dot-joining to do.

Ha! Elsewhere, Adstar claimed to believe in eternal damnation. Then I asked him on the grounds of what he believes that, whether it is on the grounds of inerrancy of the KJV - and he doesn't say anything!

So yes, to me, it is an act of absolute confidence in one's own abilities to choose some Vedic scripture over some mainstream version of the Bible.

That makes no sense to me at all, unless you are refering to some kind of national law which prohibits the reading of other scriptures.

It goes back to what I have been getting at all along, about making statements about God in the objective form.

Although I suppose the problem doesn't exist for you, already because you firmly believe that God loves everyone and doesn't give people ultimatums to "get things right in this lifetime or burn in hell forever". As such, you have a lot of breathing and experimenting space.
The doctrine of eternal damnation has great philosophical consequences.

I know this probably seems awkward or idle to you, but I assure you that to people like Doreen and myself, it is anything but that.
I still get panic and anxiety attacks (although they are milder lately) if I study Vedic scriptures, fearing I am making a mistake and will burn in hell for all eternity if I turn away from Christianity.

The thing is, I don't, and I see no reason to, unless a gun is being held to my head, and even then, i don't know for sure how i would react.
What would it take to get you out of that place?

Some reason to believe that the proposed alternative is indeed a *better* alternative - and not just going from one bad situation to another bad situation.

And what are you prepared to do for your own sake?

That depends on what the alternative would mean to me.
If it is just another kind of misery, then I am not prepared to do much.

My experiences with devotees have mostly not been positive or inspiring, and I do not see any kind of positive future for myself among devotees. I also do not see any kind of positive future for myself in the domain of "natural theology" or any other path either.

And to me, it doesn't.
To me it seems like common sense to make somee enquiry as to the nature of the soul. And to read all authoritative literature which gives explanation, then decide for myself.

"Deciding for yourself" implies some meta-philosophy that you already have independently of whatever literature you read, a meta-philosophy which you do not doubt, and which you intend to keep, regardless of the religious tradition you would adopt.
As such, the religious tradition would always remain an addition or an imposition on you.

There are no boundaries other than those we set for ourselves.

!
Is this from scripture or from your own meta-philosophy?

I am having the impression that you give yourself primacy even over scripture - which seems rather sacrilegious.

But perhaps when a person isn't fully realized, assuming such primacy is exactly what they have to do, as the only other option is faking transcendental realization.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Interesting. To me, this implies you have quite a bit of trust and respect for yourself, the other person and the idea of discussing things.

It implies all that?

I seem to be coming more from the "from scratch" side of things - ie. everything needs to be established anew in each instance of communication.
I try to be ready for everything at all times - which is of course exhausting ...

Hi, I'm Jan Ardena.
I am a theist.

Doreen has brought this up earlier in the thread.
When a person claims something, phrasing it in an objective form, by the act of doing so, they imply they have certainty about the topic of discussion.

Are you certain of what you just said, or is it just a feeling you have about it?
Do you have any proof of evidence to validate your statement?
Do you know the mind of every person why you make that statement?

You see how silly it can get.

Stating, for example, "God doesn't make mistakes" can thus be taken to imply that the maker of that statement has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God.

And what can "God allows babies to be raped" imply, by that same logic?

Stating or implying that one has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God is quite a bold thing to do, isn't it?

Yes.

(It would be different if one stated "I think that God does not make mistakes"; this would not be a claim to absolute knowledge.)

It would also be different if one stated "i think God allows babies to be raped".

Although I suppose the problem doesn't exist for you, already because you firmly believe that God loves everyone and doesn't give people ultimatums to "get things right in this lifetime or burn in hell forever". As such, you have a lot of breathing and experimenting space.

My understanding of God is based on scripture, not belief.
I can not believe in God, and understand that God does not make mistakes.
Just like I can understand that Popeye the sailorman gains strength through eating spinach.
How do you think the smart atheists construct their arguments against God?

Some reason to believe that the proposed alternative is indeed a *better* alternative - and not just going from one bad situation to another bad situation.

What?
Better food, health care, housing...?

That depends on what the alternative would mean to me.
If it is just another kind of misery, then I am not prepared to do much.

What do scriptures mean to you?

My experiences with devotees have mostly not been positive or inspiring, and I do not see any kind of positive future for myself among devotees.

That's a pity.

"Deciding for yourself" implies some meta-philosophy that you already have independently of whatever literature you read, a meta-philosophy which you do not doubt, and which you intend to keep, regardless of the religious tradition you would adopt.

Religion, to me, is one thing.
I look for the oneness in it. That way it becomes very simple.
All scriptures affirm God is perfect and complete, so why would I look
to find reasons to discriminate between scriptures. It is in my interest to understand how He is perfect, despite apparent contradictions. Otherwise I wont learn anything.

As such, the religious tradition would always remain an addition or an imposition on you.

There is only religious tradition, in my thinking. From the topmost, service to the most high, to the bottom most, thinking I am God and I must be served.
And all the variations in between.

Is this from scripture or from your own meta-philosophy?

It is my own understanding.

I am having the impression that you give yourself primacy even over scripture - which seems rather sacrilegious

.

Give me an example, explaining why, please?

jan.

 

[(Q)]

If you want to talk of a person taking the war path with their soap box and an accurate location of hatred, you're the man. The irony is that you can't see how you embody the very qualities you claim you are against.

LOL! It must then be your god given right to promote the hatred of your religion and attack everyone and anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. Yeah, that's real irony. There's no one here but YOU.

 

[wynn]

It implies all that?

Well, I inferred it, given my perspective of things.

Hi, I'm Jan Ardena.
I am a theist.

Hello Jan Ardena.

Are you certain of what you just said, or is it just a feeling you have about it?
Do you have any proof of evidence to validate your statement?
Do you know the mind of every person why you make that statement?

You see how silly it can get.

Point taken.
I suppose I have an automatic fear of the objective form - even though I myself cannot avoid it.
I mean, if I would be able to handle the matter in an actual philosophical manner, there would not be all that anxiety attached to it that I normally feel, would there?.

Stating, for example, "God doesn't make mistakes" can thus be taken to imply that the maker of that statement has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God.

And what can "God allows babies to be raped" imply, by that same logic?

The same - namely that the maker of that statement has full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God.
So per this logic, some atheist saying "God allows babies to be raped" would be considered to have full or at least the necessary and the sufficient knowledge of God - which is absurd.

It would also be different if one stated "i think God allows babies to be raped".

It would yes, it would relativize/contextualize the statement.

My understanding of God is based on scripture, not belief.

But you still believe that you have an adequate, sound understanding of scripture, or at least that you are on the way to such.
You don't constantly doubt that you understood everything wrongly, do you?

I can not believe in God, and understand that God does not make mistakes.
Just like I can understand that Popeye the sailorman gains strength through eating spinach.

If I am understanding you correctly, you mean that in order to intellectually discuss theistic topics, it is not necessary to believe anything about them.

(I can't do that - I feel like scriptures have arms, and if I just look or think of a verse, I feel held by those arms (or better: captured or captivated), obligated to believe/accept/not disagree.)

How do you think the smart atheists construct their arguments against God?

Ha!
Excellent question! I don't know how they do that.

Some reason to believe that the proposed alternative is indeed a *better* alternative - and not just going from one bad situation to another bad situation.

What?
Better food, health care, housing...?

Better in terms of happiness; better in terms of not having to pretend all is well.

That depends on what the alternative would mean to me.
If it is just another kind of misery, then I am not prepared to do much.

What do scriptures mean to you?

Good question!
I am not sure.
I just feel that pull that I described above, and then I feel an extra obligation to those who claim to know or represent scriptures.

Religion, to me, is one thing.

By "religion", do you mean here something like 'process of reconnecting with God'?

I look for the oneness in it. That way it becomes very simple.
All scriptures affirm God is perfect and complete, so why would I look
to find reasons to discriminate between scriptures.

I suppose you have somehow early on dismissed the sectarian, man-centred view of religion.

It is in my interest to understand how He is perfect, despite apparent contradictions. Otherwise I wont learn anything.

Why do you want to learn about these things? What good do you hope for or expect from learning about these things?
How did you come to be convinced that learning about these things is a worthy goal?

I am having the impression that you give yourself primacy even over scripture - which seems rather sacrilegious

Give me an example, explaining why, please?

Right above:

Is this from scripture or from your own meta-philosophy?

It is my own understanding.

I mean - you seem to have an existence and identity separate from scriptures, and you seem to be allright with that.
Such a view is rather new (and rebellious-looking) to me.
I suppose I grew up with the notion that religion/spirituality is about annihilating the individual, rendering his identity obsolete or irrelevant.

 

[lightgigantic]

LOL! It must then be your god given right to promote the hatred of your religion and attack everyone and anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. Yeah, that's real irony. There's no one here but YOU.

and that's precisely the point : you think that a disagreement on the platform of ideas is an automatic qualifier for hatred ... usually by falsely assigning what warrants a variety of stances to a monolithic status (hence the obvious irony in new atheism being the secular equivalent of fundamental Christianity)
:shrug:

 

[NMSquirrel]

wow..good disscusion..too many posts i wanna reply to..

Better in terms of happiness; better in terms of not having to pretend all is well.

bingo..so why cant ppl accept the fact that we are all screwed up..there will always be a struggle..if we don't get it externaly, we will internalize it.
um..actually...we do both very well..
how much of that struggle do we do to ourselves?
what is happiness?
isn't it all just a struggle for our worth?

Hi, I'm Jan Ardena.
I am a theist.

hey Jan, so how long have you been a theist?

My understanding of God is based on scripture, not belief.

scary..doing as your told then?

Is this from scripture or from your own meta-philosophy?

don't need meta-philosophy to look for the common denominators..

The Hebrew and Christian God most definitely makes mistakes and these mistakes are easy to read in the Tanak and Christian bibles

Tanak?..link please

Could be? Although if aliens if defined as any lifeform that is not from earth, then I guess it would have to be..

how long would aliens have to be on earth to be considered from earth?

I suppose I grew up with the notion that religion/spirituality is about annihilating the individual, rendering his identity obsolete or irrelevant

hmm..i dont think god wants a bunch of zombies..

How do you think the smart atheists construct their arguments against God?

Excellent question! I don't know how they do that.

someone once told me, when you see someone you don't like,figure out why you don't like them,90 % of the time its something you don't like about yourself..(i tend to tell it with 99% due to my own experiances)

usually by falsely assigning what warrants a variety of stances to a monolithic status (hence the obvious irony in new atheism being the secular equivalent of fundamental Christianity)

i had to read that at least 5 times..lol

there would not be all that anxiety attached to it that I normally feel, would there?.

think,feel,know,believe..

were you treated as worthless when those feelings were first present?
then it wasn't from god (IMO),god won't tell you, you are worthless..ppl do..
jesus died for us..he thought we were worth dying for..

 

[Big Chiller]

You're judging God on human terms but He isn't judged on any terms. One way to look at this is God absolutely owns all His creations that's not how we own things He owns everything absolutely in that nothing can exist without Him so He has absolute rights over everything else.

It's not about judging God; it's about explaining and understanding the nature of God and man, and the relationship between them.

Ah but God doesn't have a nature (behavior) He creates our nature and I was referring to evaluating God's side in this relationship which cannot be done.

 

[Jan Ardena]

NM,

hey Jan, so how long have you been a theist?

About 15 years.

My understanding of God is based on scripture, not belief.

scary..doing as your told then?

How do you equate " understanding of God through scripture" with "doing as you're told"

When someone brings the argument "God allows babies to be raped", either that or He is not omnipotent, or omniscient. It suggests they are basing it on scripture. So I base my counter argument on the same, or a blend of different scriptures.

jan.

 

[Alan McDougall]

If we just look at humanity, in isolation then god does make mistakes because we are very flawed, so like us this not infinite god is in a long learning curve

Surly the bible scriptures below indicate a mistake by god

<< Genesis 6 >>
New International Version

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Flood

1When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend witha man forever, for he is mortalb; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

9This is the account of Noah.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14So make yourself an ark of cypressc wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.d 16Make a roof for it and finishe the ark to within 18 inchesf of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

But you still believe that you have an adequate, sound understanding of scripture, or at least that you are on the way to such.

No.
If i come to terms with something, it is becuase I can relate to it in real life.
Or it relates to philosophy, science, or art.

You don't constantly doubt that you understood everything wrongly, do you?

For someone who is not english, you have a brilliant understanding of the english language. Do you constantly doubt your understanding?

If I am understanding you correctly, you mean that in order to intellectually discuss theistic topics, it is not necessary to believe anything about them.

Yes.

(I can't do that - I feel like scriptures have arms, and if I just look or think of a verse, I feel held by those arms (or better: captured or captivated), obligated to believe/accept/not disagree.)

That sounds more like a fear of them.
I wonder if that is why atheists act the way they do about God?

How do you think the smart atheists construct their arguments against God?

Ha!
Excellent question! I don't know how they do that.

I think firstly, they look for something they deem negative (by ditching the context) that will play havoc with theirs, and folks sensibilities and emotions such as "God allows babies to be raped". This is always a confidence booster.
Then they replace that vacancy with information such as science, philosophy, and other academic pursuits.

Better in terms of happiness; better in terms of not having to pretend all is well.

What do you do for kicks in your neck of the woods?

I feel an extra obligation to those who claim to know or represent scriptures.

That's okay, so would I.
But if what they're saying doesn't add up, to your understanding, then question them.
If for some reason you can't, then I doubt your problem is to do with religion.

By "religion", do you mean here something like 'process of reconnecting with God'?

yes.

I suppose you have somehow early on dismissed the sectarian, man-centred view of religion.

I haven't dismissed it, i try to see it for what it is.

Why do you want to learn about these things? What good do you hope for or expect from learning about these things?
How did you come to be convinced that learning about these things is a worthy goal?

To try and understand who/what am I, why I am here, what happens when I leave, who/what is God, and what is my relationship to Him.
In a world where everything is temporary, that seems to be the most worth while pursuit IMO. Other pursuits just lead to taking care of the temporary body and things related to it. Not that I mind, but that's not enough for me.

I don't understand where the sacrilege come into it.

I mean - you seem to have an existence and identity separate from scriptures, and you seem to be allright with that.

That's a strange observation, given that I relate all of my points to scriptures.

Such a view is rather new (and rebellious-looking) to me.

My rebeliousness is due to the fact that I do relate everything to scripture.

I suppose I grew up with the notion that religion/spirituality is about annihilating the individual, rendering his identity obsolete or irrelevant.

Your upbringing smacks of atheism despite being fundamentalist.
You would think that stange wouldn't you, atheism and christian fundamentalism wrapped up in bed together.

jan.

 

[wynn]

But you still believe that you have an adequate, sound understanding of scripture, or at least that you are on the way to such.

No.
If i come to terms with something, it is becuase I can relate to it in real life.
Or it relates to philosophy, science, or art.

Then I really don't understand your perspective.

How do you read scripture then? Do you pick and choose - "I relate to this, I don't relate to that"?

For someone who is not english, you have a brilliant understanding of the english language.

I had to look up what "parochial" means!

Do you constantly doubt your understanding?

No. But I have an intense willingness to do so (against which I seem helpless), in hindsight and in foresight.
Someone could tell me the Pancatattva consists of twelve members, and I would probably take it seriously, starting to wonder where I got it wrong to think there are five.

(I can't do that - I feel like scriptures have arms, and if I just look or think of a verse, I feel held by those arms (or better: captured or captivated), obligated to believe/accept/not disagree.)

That sounds more like a fear of them.

Everyone is afraid of God ... or not?

Although lately, a desire occured to me to have an attitude like this woman - watch the 4' video ( http://www.happiness-project.com/ha...tual-master-who-is-your-spiritual-master.html ).
I mean - she seems genuinely happy and confident about the prospect of spirituality and having a spiritual master. Isn't that wonderful? Most people I have met who are into spirituality are heavy and grim, or disturbed and insecure, or something other unappealing to me.

What do you do for kicks in your neck of the woods?

We don't.

I feel an extra obligation to those who claim to know or represent scriptures.

That's okay, so would I.
But if what they're saying doesn't add up, to your understanding, then question them.

But then issues of showing proper respect comes in, and the consequences of offending. Asking questions is often deemed disrespectful.

This is why I prefer to talk to everyone in open forums, even though per se this is not a proper medium for that. But this here is at least a relatively neutral ground.
In person, or in private, I would not dare to have such conversations with devotees as I have here, or at least be very uncomfortable, for fear of causing offense.

I don't understand where the sacrilege come into it.

In thinking yourself good/worthy/competent enough to not constantly having to fear you will cause offense or otherwise do something wrong.

I mean - you seem to have an existence and identity separate from scriptures, and you seem to be allright with that.

That's a strange observation, given that I relate all of my points to scriptures.

I suppose you think you have a right to be in this Universe, and this goes without saying for you. I can't relate to it.
In "Desiderata", it says "You are a child of the universe / no less than the trees and the stars; / you have a right to be here." - I feel very challenged by that.

You would think that stange wouldn't you, atheism and christian fundamentalism wrapped up in bed together.

Well, I would be told something to the effect of "You are just too stupid to understand, but know that this is right!!"

 

[Doreen]

Everyone is afraid of God ... or not?

I just was doing some reading about Hinduism and was reminded of a distinction or actually a couple of distinctions....

1)

Numinous (pronounced /ˈnjuːmɨnəs/, from the Classical Latin numen) is an English adjective describing the power or presence of a divinity. The word was popularised in the early twentieth century by the German theologian Rudolf Otto in his influential book Das Heilige (1917; translated into English as The Idea of the Holy, 1923). According to Otto the numinous experience has two aspects: mysterium tremendum, which is the tendency to invoke fear and trembling; and mysterium fascinans, the tendency to attract, fascinate and compel. The numinous experience also has a personal quality to it, in that the person feels to be in communion with a Holy other. The numinous experience can lead in different cases to belief in deities, the supernatural, the sacred, the holy, and the transcendent.

So we have one distinction between finding God an intimidating Other and and an attractive other.

but also
2)

Mystical -- Mystical experiences are in many ways the opposite of numinous experiences. In the mystical experience, all 'otherness' disappear and the believer becomes one with the transcendent. The believer discovers that he or she is not distinct from the cosmos, the deity or the other reality, but one with it.

To me a numinous experience is a mystical one, so I have some trouble with definitions here, taken from Wiki, but the distinctions between
fear and attraction experiences of the divine
and
God as Other, Self as God

both run through many religious traditions.

Sorry about the tangent.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

How do you read scripture then? Do you pick and choose - "I relate to this, I don't relate to that"?

It has to resonate with reality.
For instance you read something like "do unto other as you would have them do unto you" or words to that effect. And you relate that to yourself. You then see everything through that perspective (if you choose to).

I had to lonok up what "parochial" means!

So from now on you will know what it means.

No. But I have an intense willingness to do so (against which I seem helpless), in hindsight and in foresight.

Then that's the part you need to work out,

Someone could tell me the Pancatattva consists of twelve members, and I would probably take it seriously, starting to wonder where I got it wrong to think there are five.

That's understandable. It would be reasonable to think you have been misinformed. What if someone told you that "parochial" meant a type of fish, having now read the definition?

Everyone is afraid of God ... or not?
Although lately, a desire occured to me to have an attitude like this woman - watch the 4' video ( http://www.happiness-project.com/ha...tual-master-who-is-your-spiritual-master.html ).

Okay.

I mean - she seems genuinely happy and confident about the prospect of spirituality and having a spiritual master. Isn't that wonderful?

She seems happy, anyway.

Most people I have met who are into spirituality are heavy and grim, or disturbed and insecure, or something other unappealing to me.

Why?

We don't.

Who is we?
Then what do you do to pass your time, aside from posting on sciforums?

But then issues of showing proper respect comes in, and the consequences of offending. Asking questions is often deemed disrespectful

But you should still ask in order to become clear of the point.

This is why I prefer to talk to everyone in open forums, even though per se this is not a proper medium for that. But this here is at least a relatively neutral ground.

So now you have answers and access to answers, what is your position?

In person, or in private, I would not dare to have such conversations with devotees as I have here, or at least be very uncomfortable, for fear of causing offense.

read above.

In thinking yourself good/worthy/competent enough to not constantly having to fear you will cause offense or otherwise do something wrong.

I think of myself as "good" and "worthy"?
How in the rings of Saturn did you arrive at that conclusion?
Apart from that, where does the "sacrilige lie in your description?

I suppose you think you have a right to be in this Universe, and this goes without saying for you. I can't relateto it.

I don't know whether I have a "right" to be here.
All I know is that I am here.
And you know that too.

In "Desiderata", it says "You are a child of the universe / no less than the trees and the stars; / you have a right to be here." - I feel very challenged by that.

It's quite flowery, but of no real consequence.

Well, I would be told something to the effect of "You are just too stupid to understand, but know that this is right!!"

Sounds so close to; if you don't accept the theory of evolution it is because you are stupid.

jan.

 

[(Q)]

and that's precisely the point : you think that a disagreement on the platform of ideas is an automatic qualifier for hatred ...

What ideas? All I see are indoctrinated cult members spewing forth their doctrines of hatred and ignorance causing endless conflict, telling us how to live and then doing the exact opposite of what they preach. One has to think before they can come up with ideas.

 

[lightgigantic]

What ideas? All I see are indoctrinated cult members spewing forth their doctrines of hatred and ignorance causing endless conflict, telling us how to live and then doing the exact opposite of what they preach. One has to think before they can come up with ideas.

and the irony is that you are in the same boat

 

[Jan Ardena]

Alan McDougall,

If we just look at humanity, in isolation then god does make mistakes because we are very flawed, so like us this not infinite god is in a long learning curve

How is humanity flawed?

Surly the bible scriptures below indicate a mistake by god

They indicate that people made mistakes.

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

How is humanity flawed?

Genetically.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Genetically.

How?

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

List of Genetic Diseases
Achromatopsia (inability to see color)
Adrenal Hypoplasia Congenita (reduction in adrenal gland function)
Adrenoleukodystrophy (progressive brain damage)
Aicardi Syndrome (partial or complete absence of a key structure in brain)
Albinism/Hypopigmentation (no melanin pigment in eyes, skin and hair)
Alexander Disease (neurodegenerative disease)
Alpers' Disease (degenerative disease of the central nervous system)
Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency (decreased A1AT activity in blood & lungs)
Alzheimer's (degenerative disease starting with memory loss)
Amblyopia (poor or indistinct vision)
Angelman Syndrome (intellectual and developmental delay, seizures)
Anencephaly (absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp)
Aniridia (underdevelopment of the eye's iris)
Anophthalmia (congenital absence of one or both eyes)
Ataxia Telangiectasia (immunodeficiency disorder)
Autism (brain development disorder)
Bardet-Biedl Syndrome (obesity, pigmentary retinopathy, polydactyly, mental retardation, hypogonadism, and renal failure)
Barth Syndrome (metabolism distortion, delayed motor skills, stamina deficiency, hypotonia, chronic fatigue, delayed growth)
Batten Disease (fatal, autosomal recessive neurodegenerative disorder)
Best's Disease (progressive vision loss)
Bipolar Disorder (a category of mood disorders)
Bloom Syndrome (breaks and rearrangements in the chromosomes)
Branchio-Oto-Renal (BOR) Syndrome (autosomal disorder of kidneys, ears, and neck)
Canavan Syndrome (progressive damage to nerve cells in the brain)
Carnitine Deficiencies (metabolic disorders)
Cerebral Palsy (physical disability in human development)
Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disease (loss of muscle tissue and touch sensation)
Cleft Lip/Cleft Palate (abnormal facial development during gestation)
Coffin Lowry Syndrome (mental retardation and delayed development)
Coloboma (hole in one of the structures of the eye)
Color Blindness
Congenital Heart Defects
Congenital Hip Dysplasia (Dislocation)
Connective Tissue Disorders
Cooley's Anemia/ Thalassemia (formation of abnormal haemoglobin molecules)
Corneal Dystrophy (non-inflammatory, bilateral opacity of cornea)
Cornelia de Lange Syndrome (severe developmental anomalies)
Cystic Fibrosis (progressive disability due to multisystem failure)
Cystinosis (autosomal recessive disorder of the renal tubules)
Developmental Disabilities
Diabetes
Down Syndrome (impairment of cognitive ability, physical growth & facial appearance)
Duane Syndrome (inability of the eye to turn out)
Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (defect in collagen synthesis)
Epidermolysis Bullosa (extremely fragile skin & recurrent blister formation)
Familial Dysautonomia (disorder of the autonomic nervous system)
Familial Mediterranean Fever (inflammatory disorder)
Fanconi Anemia (short stature, skeletal anomalies, bone marrow failure)
Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva (disease of the connective tissue)
Fragile X Syndrome (X-linked mental retardation)
G6PD (Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase) Deficiency Anemia
Galactosemia (inefficient metabolism of the sugar galactose0
Gaucher Disease (deficiency of the enzyme glucocerebrosidase)
Gilbert's Syndrome (high levels of unconjugated bilirubin in bloodstream)
Glaucoma (diseases of the optic nerve)
Hemochromatosis (excessive absorption of dietary iron)
Hemoglobin C Disease (abnormal hemoglobin)
Hemophilia/Bleeding Disorders (inefficient control over blood clotting or coagulation)
Hirschsprung's Disease (enlargement of the colon)
Homocystinuria (disorder of the metabolism of the amino acid methionine)
Huntington's Disease (abnormal body movements)
Hurler Syndrome (deficiency of alpha-L iduronidase)
Klinefelter Syndrome (small testicles and reduced fertility)
Krabbe Disease (fatal degenerative disorder of nervous system)
Leber Congenital Amaurosis (loss of vision)
Leukodystrophies (progressive degeneration of the white matter of brain)
Long Q-T Syndrome (heart problem)
Macular Degeneration (loss of central vision)
Marfan Syndrome (disorder of the connective tissue)
Marshall-Smith Syndrome (unusual accelerated skeletal maturation)
McCune-Albright Syndrome (disorder of bones, hormones & skin pigmentation)
Menkes Disease (disorder that affects copper levels in the body)
Metabolic Disorders
Mitochondrial Disease
Mucolipidoses
Mucopolysaccharide Disorders
Muscular Dystrophy (progressive muscle weakness)
Neonatal Onset Multisystem Inflammatory Disease (uncontrolled inflammation in multiple parts of the body)
Neurofibromatosis (grow of tumors in nerve cells - Schwann cells)
Niemann-Pick Disease (disorder affecting lipid metabolism)
Noonan Syndrome (heart malformation, short stature, learning problems)
Optic Atrophy (loss of some or most of the fibers of the optic nerve)
Osteogenesis Imperfecta (no protein - collagen, or the ability to make it)
Peutz-Jeghers Syndrome (benign hamartomatous polyps in gastrointestinal tract)
Phenylketonuria (PKU) (deficiency in enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase)
Polycystic Kidney Disease (multiple cysts in both kidneys)
Pseudoxanthoma Elasticum (fragmentation and mineralization of elastic fibers in tissues)
Progeria (accelerated aging)
Ptosis (drooping upper eyelid or breasts)
Rentinitis Pigmentosa
Scheie Syndrome (absence or malfunctioning of lysosomal enzymes)
Schizophrenia (impairments in the perception or expression of reality)
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency (SCID) (crippling of adaptive immune system)
Sickle Cell Anemia (abnormal, rigid, sickle shape of red blood cells)
Skeletal Dysplasias (abnormal bone and cartilage development)
Smith-Magenis Syndrome (developmental disorder)
Spherocytosis (production of bi-concave disk shaped red blood cells)
Spina Bifida (incompletely formed spinal cord)
Spinocerebellar Ataxia (progressive in-coordination of gait)
Stargardt Disease (Macular Degeneration) (progressive vision loss)
Stickler Syndrome (disorders affecting connective tissue, mainly collagen)
Tay-Sachs Disease (usually affects nervous tissue of the brain)
Treacher Collins Syndrome (craniofacial deformities)
Tuberous Sclerosis (causes benign tumors in various body parts)
Turner's Syndrome (only one X chromosome in each cell of a female)
Urea Cycle Disorder (deficiency of one of the enzymes in the urea cycle causing irreversible brain damage and/or death)
Usher's Syndrome (deafness and a gradual vision loss)
Velocardiofacial Syndrome (deletion of a small piece of chromosome 22)
von Hippel-Lindau Disease (abnormal growth of tumors in body parts)
Werner Syndrome (premature aging)
Williams Syndrome ("elfin" facial appearance, with a low nasal bridge)
Xeroderma Pigmentosum (deficient ability to repair damage caused by ultraviolet (UV) light)
XXX Syndrome (an extra X chromosome in each cell of a female)
XYY Syndrome (an extra Y chromosome in each cell of a male)

 

[Lori_7]

List of Genetic Diseases
Achromatopsia (inability to see color)
Adrenal Hypoplasia Congenita (reduction in adrenal gland function)
Adrenoleukodystrophy (progressive brain damage)
Aicardi Syndrome (partial or complete absence of a key structure in brain)
Albinism/Hypopigmentation (no melanin pigment in eyes, skin and hair)
Alexander Disease (neurodegenerative disease)
Alpers' Disease (degenerative disease of the central nervous system)
Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency (decreased A1AT activity in blood & lungs)
Alzheimer's (degenerative disease starting with memory loss)
Amblyopia (poor or indistinct vision)
Angelman Syndrome (intellectual and developmental delay, seizures)
Anencephaly (absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp)
Aniridia (underdevelopment of the eye's iris)
Anophthalmia (congenital absence of one or both eyes)
Ataxia Telangiectasia (immunodeficiency disorder)
Autism (brain development disorder)
Bardet-Biedl Syndrome (obesity, pigmentary retinopathy, polydactyly, mental retardation, hypogonadism, and renal failure)
Barth Syndrome (metabolism distortion, delayed motor skills, stamina deficiency, hypotonia, chronic fatigue, delayed growth)
Batten Disease (fatal, autosomal recessive neurodegenerative disorder)
Best's Disease (progressive vision loss)
Bipolar Disorder (a category of mood disorders)
Bloom Syndrome (breaks and rearrangements in the chromosomes)
Branchio-Oto-Renal (BOR) Syndrome (autosomal disorder of kidneys, ears, and neck)
Canavan Syndrome (progressive damage to nerve cells in the brain)
Carnitine Deficiencies (metabolic disorders)
Cerebral Palsy (physical disability in human development)
Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disease (loss of muscle tissue and touch sensation)
Cleft Lip/Cleft Palate (abnormal facial development during gestation)
Coffin Lowry Syndrome (mental retardation and delayed development)
Coloboma (hole in one of the structures of the eye)
Color Blindness
Congenital Heart Defects
Congenital Hip Dysplasia (Dislocation)
Connective Tissue Disorders
Cooley's Anemia/ Thalassemia (formation of abnormal haemoglobin molecules)
Corneal Dystrophy (non-inflammatory, bilateral opacity of cornea)
Cornelia de Lange Syndrome (severe developmental anomalies)
Cystic Fibrosis (progressive disability due to multisystem failure)
Cystinosis (autosomal recessive disorder of the renal tubules)
Developmental Disabilities
Diabetes
Down Syndrome (impairment of cognitive ability, physical growth & facial appearance)
Duane Syndrome (inability of the eye to turn out)
Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (defect in collagen synthesis)
Epidermolysis Bullosa (extremely fragile skin & recurrent blister formation)
Familial Dysautonomia (disorder of the autonomic nervous system)
Familial Mediterranean Fever (inflammatory disorder)
Fanconi Anemia (short stature, skeletal anomalies, bone marrow failure)
Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva (disease of the connective tissue)
Fragile X Syndrome (X-linked mental retardation)
G6PD (Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase) Deficiency Anemia
Galactosemia (inefficient metabolism of the sugar galactose0
Gaucher Disease (deficiency of the enzyme glucocerebrosidase)
Gilbert's Syndrome (high levels of unconjugated bilirubin in bloodstream)
Glaucoma (diseases of the optic nerve)
Hemochromatosis (excessive absorption of dietary iron)
Hemoglobin C Disease (abnormal hemoglobin)
Hemophilia/Bleeding Disorders (inefficient control over blood clotting or coagulation)
Hirschsprung's Disease (enlargement of the colon)
Homocystinuria (disorder of the metabolism of the amino acid methionine)
Huntington's Disease (abnormal body movements)
Hurler Syndrome (deficiency of alpha-L iduronidase)
Klinefelter Syndrome (small testicles and reduced fertility)
Krabbe Disease (fatal degenerative disorder of nervous system)
Leber Congenital Amaurosis (loss of vision)
Leukodystrophies (progressive degeneration of the white matter of brain)
Long Q-T Syndrome (heart problem)
Macular Degeneration (loss of central vision)
Marfan Syndrome (disorder of the connective tissue)
Marshall-Smith Syndrome (unusual accelerated skeletal maturation)
McCune-Albright Syndrome (disorder of bones, hormones & skin pigmentation)
Menkes Disease (disorder that affects copper levels in the body)
Metabolic Disorders
Mitochondrial Disease
Mucolipidoses
Mucopolysaccharide Disorders
Muscular Dystrophy (progressive muscle weakness)
Neonatal Onset Multisystem Inflammatory Disease (uncontrolled inflammation in multiple parts of the body)
Neurofibromatosis (grow of tumors in nerve cells - Schwann cells)
Niemann-Pick Disease (disorder affecting lipid metabolism)
Noonan Syndrome (heart malformation, short stature, learning problems)
Optic Atrophy (loss of some or most of the fibers of the optic nerve)
Osteogenesis Imperfecta (no protein - collagen, or the ability to make it)
Peutz-Jeghers Syndrome (benign hamartomatous polyps in gastrointestinal tract)
Phenylketonuria (PKU) (deficiency in enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase)
Polycystic Kidney Disease (multiple cysts in both kidneys)
Pseudoxanthoma Elasticum (fragmentation and mineralization of elastic fibers in tissues)
Progeria (accelerated aging)
Ptosis (drooping upper eyelid or breasts)
Rentinitis Pigmentosa
Scheie Syndrome (absence or malfunctioning of lysosomal enzymes)
Schizophrenia (impairments in the perception or expression of reality)
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency (SCID) (crippling of adaptive immune system)
Sickle Cell Anemia (abnormal, rigid, sickle shape of red blood cells)
Skeletal Dysplasias (abnormal bone and cartilage development)
Smith-Magenis Syndrome (developmental disorder)
Spherocytosis (production of bi-concave disk shaped red blood cells)
Spina Bifida (incompletely formed spinal cord)
Spinocerebellar Ataxia (progressive in-coordination of gait)
Stargardt Disease (Macular Degeneration) (progressive vision loss)
Stickler Syndrome (disorders affecting connective tissue, mainly collagen)
Tay-Sachs Disease (usually affects nervous tissue of the brain)
Treacher Collins Syndrome (craniofacial deformities)
Tuberous Sclerosis (causes benign tumors in various body parts)
Turner's Syndrome (only one X chromosome in each cell of a female)
Urea Cycle Disorder (deficiency of one of the enzymes in the urea cycle causing irreversible brain damage and/or death)
Usher's Syndrome (deafness and a gradual vision loss)
Velocardiofacial Syndrome (deletion of a small piece of chromosome 22)
von Hippel-Lindau Disease (abnormal growth of tumors in body parts)
Werner Syndrome (premature aging)
Williams Syndrome ("elfin" facial appearance, with a low nasal bridge)
Xeroderma Pigmentosum (deficient ability to repair damage caused by ultraviolet (UV) light)
XXX Syndrome (an extra X chromosome in each cell of a female)
XYY Syndrome (an extra Y chromosome in each cell of a male)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_-A8JAx4D8