indeed. the appearance of the idea of hell in christianity was borrowed from zoroastrianism, mithraism, and greek religion.
Darwin's Theory is False
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
phlog says:
In the bible Jesus speaks more about hell than he does about heaven. That's where it comes from. Also, in the Book of Revelation there is the "Lake of Fire" where many unfortunate individuals supposedly spend thier eternity along with the devil and the angels that fell.
By the way Isaac Newton went off the deep end and calculated that the present age would end this century, and usher in the great tribulation. I have read this anyway. Newton spent a good part of his later years in Jerusalem, studying the manuscripts and using numerology. He also learned some of the languages needed to interpret the oldest manuscripts. Some christians consider his behavior to be rather bizarre -- like he lost his marbles. I think it's interesting but I'm not going to pin my hopes on it.
In the bible Jesus speaks more about hell than he does about heaven. That's where it comes from. Also, in the Book of Revelation there is the "Lake of Fire" where many unfortunate individuals supposedly spend thier eternity along with the devil and the angels that fell.
By the way Isaac Newton went off the deep end and calculated that the present age would end this century, and usher in the great tribulation. I have read this anyway. Newton spent a good part of his later years in Jerusalem, studying the manuscripts and using numerology. He also learned some of the languages needed to interpret the oldest manuscripts. Some christians consider his behavior to be rather bizarre -- like he lost his marbles. I think it's interesting but I'm not going to pin my hopes on it.
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newton specifically said that he COULD NOT gather meaning from most of those texts "without considerable help from an adding machine the likes of which has not graced this earth."
basically, he studied kabbalah.
and again, look to the old scriptures for facts. those are the texts jesus used, are you too good for them?
and again, jesus NEVER said "hell". he likely used the word "sheol", which was probably translated into "hades" from the greek.
do you honestly know that little about your religion?
basically, he studied kabbalah.
and again, look to the old scriptures for facts. those are the texts jesus used, are you too good for them?
and again, jesus NEVER said "hell". he likely used the word "sheol", which was probably translated into "hades" from the greek.
do you honestly know that little about your religion?
DI,
The bible is as clear about hell as it is heaven.
The Lake of Fire in Revelation where the beast, and false prophet are is called a place of "eternal torment". Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10,14 People end up there too:: Rev 20:15
If I start posting Bible -- people will say I'm preachy, so I'll give you the verses. Here is the reference I commonly use:
Speed Bible Concordance
When I enter "hell" in the search engine I come up with about 57 verses, many in the old testament.
It is also provided in hebrew and greek if you would like to search the oldest manuscripts.
Jesus is pretty clear about hell in Mark 9:43-48. It's definately not a place someone wants to be.
The bible is as clear about hell as it is heaven.
The Lake of Fire in Revelation where the beast, and false prophet are is called a place of "eternal torment". Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10,14 People end up there too:: Rev 20:15
If I start posting Bible -- people will say I'm preachy, so I'll give you the verses. Here is the reference I commonly use:
Speed Bible Concordance
When I enter "hell" in the search engine I come up with about 57 verses, many in the old testament.
It is also provided in hebrew and greek if you would like to search the oldest manuscripts.
Jesus is pretty clear about hell in Mark 9:43-48. It's definately not a place someone wants to be.
Woody said:
Liar, there are about 25 verses:
Woody said:
the word "hell" NEVER appears in the Torah. i can personally guarantee that one to you.
why am i bothering?
the jewish concept of "hell" (or the closest thing to it) is that you will have a time of learning after death, before you can move on.
thats it.
no fire.
no LAKE of fire.
knowledge.
as a side note:
"hell" may appear in english (probably other) translations of the Torah, but written in the hebrew language, it never makes itself known.
woody, learn to read hebrew...then come see me.
"hell" may appear in english (probably other) translations of the Torah, but written in the hebrew language, it never makes itself known.
woody, learn to read hebrew...then come see me.
DI,
What about the new testament verses I gave you? You'll need to know Greek for them.
Specifically: The Lake of Fire in Revelation where the beast, and false prophet are is called a place of "eternal torment". Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10,14 People end up there too:: Rev 20:15
Also, Mark 9:43-48 when Jesus talks about it.
The Jehovah's Witnesses agree with your interpretation of hell. All christian denominations agree on hell, and the catholics have added "pergatory."
Being that Jesus spoke more on hell than he did on heaven, it's really not even a debate concerning hell. Like I said before, it really doesn't matter to me because I'm not going there, and if it is indeed non-existent like you say, then it's not a concern, so why debate what all christians consider to be plainly odvious from reading the bible?
By the way, in christian doctrine, hell and sheol are not the same thing:
hell
sheol
Here's a quote from the Wikipedia:
The Christian idea of Hell is different from the Sheol of Judaism. The nature of Hell is described in the New Testament on several occasions. For example, in Matthew 3:10-12, 5:22 and 29-30, 7:29, 8:12, 22:13 and 33, 25:30 and 41-46, Luke 3:9, 12:5, 13:28, 16:19-28, and the Book of Revelation 12:9, 14:9-11, 19:20, 20:10 and 14-15, 21:8; in the Book of Revelation Hell is also mentioned as the "abyss" and "the Earth".
This debate is over.
as a footnote: According to the bible Jesus changed the abode of the dead after he died. Before he died it was a place for all souls both righteous and unrighteous, but it was divided into two parts with a great chasm between them (Luke 16: 18-31). The righteous were comfortable but they weren't able to access God. After Jesus died, the righteous were set free, and Jesus took the keys to death and hell with him (Rev 1:8).
What about the new testament verses I gave you? You'll need to know Greek for them.
Specifically: The Lake of Fire in Revelation where the beast, and false prophet are is called a place of "eternal torment". Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10,14 People end up there too:: Rev 20:15
Also, Mark 9:43-48 when Jesus talks about it.
The Jehovah's Witnesses agree with your interpretation of hell. All christian denominations agree on hell, and the catholics have added "pergatory."
Being that Jesus spoke more on hell than he did on heaven, it's really not even a debate concerning hell. Like I said before, it really doesn't matter to me because I'm not going there, and if it is indeed non-existent like you say, then it's not a concern, so why debate what all christians consider to be plainly odvious from reading the bible?
By the way, in christian doctrine, hell and sheol are not the same thing:
hell
sheol
Here's a quote from the Wikipedia:
The Christian idea of Hell is different from the Sheol of Judaism. The nature of Hell is described in the New Testament on several occasions. For example, in Matthew 3:10-12, 5:22 and 29-30, 7:29, 8:12, 22:13 and 33, 25:30 and 41-46, Luke 3:9, 12:5, 13:28, 16:19-28, and the Book of Revelation 12:9, 14:9-11, 19:20, 20:10 and 14-15, 21:8; in the Book of Revelation Hell is also mentioned as the "abyss" and "the Earth".
This debate is over.
as a footnote: According to the bible Jesus changed the abode of the dead after he died. Before he died it was a place for all souls both righteous and unrighteous, but it was divided into two parts with a great chasm between them (Luke 16: 18-31). The righteous were comfortable but they weren't able to access God. After Jesus died, the righteous were set free, and Jesus took the keys to death and hell with him (Rev 1:8).
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I dont know where I said that in the post below, I was just asking you, what you believed.Woody said:geeser says,
You don't believe there is a hell. So I'm not going there when I die, right?
I would appreciate an answer, thank you.geeser said:
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The Devil Inside said:
Thankyou. All these translations are after modern 'Hell' was invented. If they are translating 'Gehenna' as 'Hell' that is incorrect. 'Purgatory' is the closest Christian analog of 'Gehenna'. (With Gehenna actually being the contraction of a real place name, where the bodies of wrong doers were burned, isntead of recieving proper burial.)
In those quotes supplied by 'Mythbuster' I still see no reference to 'eternity' spent in hell, nor a description of Hell. Seems 'Hell' has been been passed as a reference. That said, it's description varies from culture to culture. One man's hell isn't the same as another.
Some translations of Revelations use the word 'Hades' (in conjunction with the 'Lake of Fire') which is a steal from Greek mythology. Just what has a pantheistic religion's underworld have to do with Christianity?
Sorry Woody, you are going to have to at least _try_ to shw where 'Hell' is explained (not just referred to) and how long people are expected to stay there. Modern translations as proof aren't really acceptable, I suggest you go back to the Hebrew and Demotic versions, and substantiate your claims from the horses mouth.
woody, i am not a christian. i am jewish.
why would i attribute any fact to a document that was "tacked on" by a bunch of europeans?
jesus was a kickass guy, but he didnt do half of the things you are talking about, as it is all heresay from paul and his cronies.
why do you insist on ignorance?
why would i attribute any fact to a document that was "tacked on" by a bunch of europeans?
jesus was a kickass guy, but he didnt do half of the things you are talking about, as it is all heresay from paul and his cronies.
why do you insist on ignorance?
Woody said:
Far from it, did you take the time to actually read those verses? They mention the word 'Hell' and being cast into 'Hell' and fire, but this really could just be the same as 'Gehenna' the PHYSICAL place where wrongdoers bodies were burned, instead of being buried properly. You really are going to have to try and get something to illustrate Hell.
Come on, there's a lot of real nitpicking going on here. Of course anything Woody quotes from the Bible can be dismissed as "Paul's cronies" or (from my point of view) "Moses never wrote the Torah anyway". This is kind of irrelevant. And in any case, Woody has in fact made his original post a lot more tolerant of different points of view, an accomodation I have yet to see anybody acknowledge.
Woody has a personal faith in the nature of Hell. Now, I still want to know from Woody why he continues to worship a God who treats those against him to infinite punishment? You said that it gave God no pleasure to send any soul to Hell. Well, obviously we can see a parallel there with a kindly compassionate judge who nontheless has to send a miscreant to prison, with the intention of protecting society, doling out a modicum of punishment and hopefully teaching the criminal a lesson - but at any rate, protecting society by subjecting someone to the somewhat antediluvian custom of locking him up in a Victorian building for a period of years.
But that isn't what God is doing. It may well give Him no pleasure to damn erroneous souls, but look what he's condemning them to! The kind of punishment that Hell represents - sheol, gehanna, wtf who cares, it would be regarded as cruel and unusual in any civilised society. The play and motion picture Judgement at Nuremberg was precisely about the culpability of judges in Germany who did nothing but uphold the Law - and send innocent men, women and children to horrendous treatment, torture, starvation, medical experimentation, or simply mass murder.
Maybe God didn't create Hell, but his punishments put him in the pantheon of the world's greatest villains - and I'm not saying this from an atheistic point of view, but simply from an objective one. When I believed in God, I did not believe in Hell, and St John the Divine can just go f himself.
So I ask the question again, Woody - do you really love and worship the God that can do that - an eternity of pain - to a single sapient soul in the Universe?
"Cruciatis in crucem. Eas in crucem" ("To hell with your punishments. To hell with You") President Jed Bartlet talks to God, The West Wing.
Woody has a personal faith in the nature of Hell. Now, I still want to know from Woody why he continues to worship a God who treats those against him to infinite punishment? You said that it gave God no pleasure to send any soul to Hell. Well, obviously we can see a parallel there with a kindly compassionate judge who nontheless has to send a miscreant to prison, with the intention of protecting society, doling out a modicum of punishment and hopefully teaching the criminal a lesson - but at any rate, protecting society by subjecting someone to the somewhat antediluvian custom of locking him up in a Victorian building for a period of years.
But that isn't what God is doing. It may well give Him no pleasure to damn erroneous souls, but look what he's condemning them to! The kind of punishment that Hell represents - sheol, gehanna, wtf who cares, it would be regarded as cruel and unusual in any civilised society. The play and motion picture Judgement at Nuremberg was precisely about the culpability of judges in Germany who did nothing but uphold the Law - and send innocent men, women and children to horrendous treatment, torture, starvation, medical experimentation, or simply mass murder.
Maybe God didn't create Hell, but his punishments put him in the pantheon of the world's greatest villains - and I'm not saying this from an atheistic point of view, but simply from an objective one. When I believed in God, I did not believe in Hell, and St John the Divine can just go f himself.
So I ask the question again, Woody - do you really love and worship the God that can do that - an eternity of pain - to a single sapient soul in the Universe?
"Cruciatis in crucem. Eas in crucem" ("To hell with your punishments. To hell with You") President Jed Bartlet talks to God, The West Wing.
interesting.
however, i have no obligation to be understanding to anyone that practices (in my opinion) a false religion (this does NOT apply to all religions that are not my own.).
however, i have no obligation to be understanding to anyone that practices (in my opinion) a false religion (this does NOT apply to all religions that are not my own.).
phlog says:
I'm not quoting the O/T, I'm quoting the N/T. I have provided the examples, and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you don't accept the N/T then fine -- a lot of people would say they are both garbage.
If I agreed that hell/sheol is a place of nonexistance, then I would become a Jehovah's Witness. I have discussed this subject with them on numerous occasions, and I hear no new arguement. So I'm starting to lose interest, and I have no interest in becoming a JW.
I'm not quoting the O/T, I'm quoting the N/T. I have provided the examples, and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you don't accept the N/T then fine -- a lot of people would say they are both garbage.
If I agreed that hell/sheol is a place of nonexistance, then I would become a Jehovah's Witness. I have discussed this subject with them on numerous occasions, and I hear no new arguement. So I'm starting to lose interest, and I have no interest in becoming a JW.
Silas said,
Woody says: yes. I too was on the list. Either you are for God or you are against him. If you are for Him He becomes a part of you, but it is voluntary -- like love should be. If you are against Him, your sin becomes a part of you when you die, and the wrath of God abides on you. (john 3:36). He is rather pissed off about it, and there is nothing to appease his anger -- it is never satisfied. Jesus appeased God's anger, and allowed fellowship to be restored with him again. Apart from Jesus, their is no way to bridge the gap, and no final solution that both appeases God's anger and satisfies his love. God still loves the sinner in hell and he even loves satan, but there is no solution to His delimma, forever, apart from the atonement which the world rejects. This idea was embodied in the animal sacrifices in the O/T, and the final sacrifice to end all sacrifices in the NT. Ever noticed that Jews don't offer sacrifices anymore?
This is indeed a sad state of affairs for both the creator and the created. All God ever wanted was fellowship with man. Now what does he do with those who refuse to fulfill his wish? If He annihilates them to nonexistance then he doesn't really love them. But it really pisses him off that they are around, not only because of what they have done, but because of what they are, and they (sinners) can not change what they are, only God can do that, but they won't let him -- now and forever -- because the change requires faith. If a person dies without faith then they will never have faith. So there is no solution for them but separation from God, and this is Hell -- eternal separation from God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Watchtower --the official Jehovah's Witness site.
I have no interest in becoming a JW.
Woody says: yes. I too was on the list. Either you are for God or you are against him. If you are for Him He becomes a part of you, but it is voluntary -- like love should be. If you are against Him, your sin becomes a part of you when you die, and the wrath of God abides on you. (john 3:36). He is rather pissed off about it, and there is nothing to appease his anger -- it is never satisfied. Jesus appeased God's anger, and allowed fellowship to be restored with him again. Apart from Jesus, their is no way to bridge the gap, and no final solution that both appeases God's anger and satisfies his love. God still loves the sinner in hell and he even loves satan, but there is no solution to His delimma, forever, apart from the atonement which the world rejects. This idea was embodied in the animal sacrifices in the O/T, and the final sacrifice to end all sacrifices in the NT. Ever noticed that Jews don't offer sacrifices anymore?
This is indeed a sad state of affairs for both the creator and the created. All God ever wanted was fellowship with man. Now what does he do with those who refuse to fulfill his wish? If He annihilates them to nonexistance then he doesn't really love them. But it really pisses him off that they are around, not only because of what they have done, but because of what they are, and they (sinners) can not change what they are, only God can do that, but they won't let him -- now and forever -- because the change requires faith. If a person dies without faith then they will never have faith. So there is no solution for them but separation from God, and this is Hell -- eternal separation from God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Watchtower --the official Jehovah's Witness site.
I have no interest in becoming a JW.
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Belief in God(s) is also the result of a blind evolutionary process.