Darwin's Theory is False
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
Godless says:
GL you don't seem to be getting it.
Let's say they are 100% wrong, they are crazy, and they have incredible visions.
An insane missionary sees you burning in flames (but it is only an insane vision) and he tries to put you out with a water hose. You get all wet and (he in his own mind) sees the flames extinguished. He honestly believes he saved your life because he is totally insane.
Were his intentions ingenuine?
What would you think if he did nothing? Later you really do catch on fire, and he still does nothing. What's the difference to him?
This is called philanthropy. There is nothing wrong with it, but then again there isn't much of it anyway. Do you know anyone that gives sacrificially in this manner?
GL you don't seem to be getting it.
Let's say they are 100% wrong, they are crazy, and they have incredible visions.
An insane missionary sees you burning in flames (but it is only an insane vision) and he tries to put you out with a water hose. You get all wet and (he in his own mind) sees the flames extinguished. He honestly believes he saved your life because he is totally insane.
Were his intentions ingenuine?
What would you think if he did nothing? Later you really do catch on fire, and he still does nothing. What's the difference to him?
This is called philanthropy. There is nothing wrong with it, but then again there isn't much of it anyway. Do you know anyone that gives sacrificially in this manner?
per stretched:
“ “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; etc.”
Leveticus
* The point is, God COMMANDS his favourites to have slaves/bondsmen/(insert apologetic term here). Your tangent is inqonsequential. ”
Quote Woody:
“If you study that period of history, most nations had slaves. It was very common, as well as multiple wives -- Abraham had several. Who are you to say slavery was wrong in that economy?”
* Why would morality change over time Woody? Why are there no slaves today? Because it is morally unacceptable. It has in fact ALWAYS been morally unacceptable. In the context of the period in history, whether slavery was or was not acceptable at the time, is unimportant. If God condoned slavery THEN, he condones slavery TODAY. Otherwise your god is fickle and certainly not omnipotent.
W:
“Whether you want to admit it or not, we are slaves in our own country. Your per centage of slavery depends on your tax bracket. All slaves throughout history were "taxed" 100% (they worked for no disposable income) -- this includes african american slaves. I'm a 35% slave when I count sales tax and property tax. What per centage of a slave are you? Stop paying your taxes and see what happens. You will become a 100% slave in the pen.”
* No Woody, you get something in return for your taxes. Streets, schools, water availability, electricity availability, social security, etc. We are also protected as individuals by laws and human rights. (methinks that is changing however) The slaves we are talking about had NO rights whatsoever, and could be slowly starved to death at will. (this would be however, economically unfeasible).You are comparing cherry tomatoes with watermelons.
“ “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; etc.”
Leveticus
* The point is, God COMMANDS his favourites to have slaves/bondsmen/(insert apologetic term here). Your tangent is inqonsequential. ”
Quote Woody:
“If you study that period of history, most nations had slaves. It was very common, as well as multiple wives -- Abraham had several. Who are you to say slavery was wrong in that economy?”
* Why would morality change over time Woody? Why are there no slaves today? Because it is morally unacceptable. It has in fact ALWAYS been morally unacceptable. In the context of the period in history, whether slavery was or was not acceptable at the time, is unimportant. If God condoned slavery THEN, he condones slavery TODAY. Otherwise your god is fickle and certainly not omnipotent.
W:
“Whether you want to admit it or not, we are slaves in our own country. Your per centage of slavery depends on your tax bracket. All slaves throughout history were "taxed" 100% (they worked for no disposable income) -- this includes african american slaves. I'm a 35% slave when I count sales tax and property tax. What per centage of a slave are you? Stop paying your taxes and see what happens. You will become a 100% slave in the pen.”
* No Woody, you get something in return for your taxes. Streets, schools, water availability, electricity availability, social security, etc. We are also protected as individuals by laws and human rights. (methinks that is changing however) The slaves we are talking about had NO rights whatsoever, and could be slowly starved to death at will. (this would be however, economically unfeasible).You are comparing cherry tomatoes with watermelons.
Ophiolite:
“He was a Canadian academic, a Professor of English, who came to prominence for his dissection of the media.”
* Ahhh... that McLuhan ... "Understanding Media" McLuhan. `60`s Media guru who rubbed shoulders with John, Yoko and the Pope.
“He was a Canadian academic, a Professor of English, who came to prominence for his dissection of the media.”
* Ahhh... that McLuhan ... "Understanding Media" McLuhan. `60`s Media guru who rubbed shoulders with John, Yoko and the Pope.
Stretched says:
Slaves also got a free place to sleep, food, and water.
Kidnapping is an offense in the bible, but I can not find where slavery is.
Slaves are human beings, so if they are being starved to death they are being murdered, which is morally wrong.
I feel that slavery is reprehensible in our culture, however, our culture does not represent all of humanity. I think the cast system in India is reprehensible "forced" discrimination, but you and I are in no position to judge their culture.
I think discrimination is reprehensible, but as a christian I expect to receive it, and the bible teaches that I will receive it.
So your call on slavery is your judgement of another culture. Whether you want to admit it or not we are all slaves to something, and we must choose our master. Your master is "self." You feel this is the only ethical choice -- that you have the right to be God. I feel you have this right, but the choice is not ethical.
So in the end, slavery isn't a sin, but kidnapping or "man-stealing" is a sin. The african slaves were kidnapped, the Jewish slaves were not. Their own families voluntarily sold them into slavery, and received economic compensation.
I can not agree with everything the Jewish people have done, such as Abraham's multiple wives that God did not espressly forbid in the bible until Moses' day. I do not see Jesus condemning the form of slavery that existed in the day of Moses, and there were probably slaves in Jesus' day as well.
This was the social/ political system of that day. Slaves had some rights as human beings. Punishment unjustly administered to a slave was morally wrong. You will find that if you search the scriptures.
In addition our own culture has it's own slavery institutions, which include the penal institutions, and mental institutions, where people are kept captive against their own will. We justify our slavery by saying these people are put away to protect our society. The criminals, we say, earned their slavery. The mentally insane however did not.
So the onus is on you, stretched, to define goodness. Goodness to who?
Slaves also got a free place to sleep, food, and water.
Kidnapping is an offense in the bible, but I can not find where slavery is.
Slaves are human beings, so if they are being starved to death they are being murdered, which is morally wrong.
I feel that slavery is reprehensible in our culture, however, our culture does not represent all of humanity. I think the cast system in India is reprehensible "forced" discrimination, but you and I are in no position to judge their culture.
I think discrimination is reprehensible, but as a christian I expect to receive it, and the bible teaches that I will receive it.
So your call on slavery is your judgement of another culture. Whether you want to admit it or not we are all slaves to something, and we must choose our master. Your master is "self." You feel this is the only ethical choice -- that you have the right to be God. I feel you have this right, but the choice is not ethical.
So in the end, slavery isn't a sin, but kidnapping or "man-stealing" is a sin. The african slaves were kidnapped, the Jewish slaves were not. Their own families voluntarily sold them into slavery, and received economic compensation.
I can not agree with everything the Jewish people have done, such as Abraham's multiple wives that God did not espressly forbid in the bible until Moses' day. I do not see Jesus condemning the form of slavery that existed in the day of Moses, and there were probably slaves in Jesus' day as well.
This was the social/ political system of that day. Slaves had some rights as human beings. Punishment unjustly administered to a slave was morally wrong. You will find that if you search the scriptures.
In addition our own culture has it's own slavery institutions, which include the penal institutions, and mental institutions, where people are kept captive against their own will. We justify our slavery by saying these people are put away to protect our society. The criminals, we say, earned their slavery. The mentally insane however did not.
So the onus is on you, stretched, to define goodness. Goodness to who?
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W:
“This was the social/ political system of that day. Slaves had some rights as human beings. Punishment unjustly administered to a slave was morally wrong. You will find that if you search the scriptures.”
* “Some” rights. Their value was the same as animals. Commodity. Monetary value. That was the only right they had. They were worth more alive than dead.
W:
“In addition our own culture has it's own slavery institutions, which include the penal institutions, and mental institutions, where people are kept captive against their own will. We justify our slavery by saying these people are put away to protect our society. The criminals, we say, earned their slavery. The mentally insane however did not.”
* Oh, boy. Perhaps we should just let all the criminals free Woody? This comparison is disturbingly naïve.
W:
“So the onus is on you, stretched, to define goodness. Goodness to who? “
* Que?
“This was the social/ political system of that day. Slaves had some rights as human beings. Punishment unjustly administered to a slave was morally wrong. You will find that if you search the scriptures.”
* “Some” rights. Their value was the same as animals. Commodity. Monetary value. That was the only right they had. They were worth more alive than dead.
W:
“In addition our own culture has it's own slavery institutions, which include the penal institutions, and mental institutions, where people are kept captive against their own will. We justify our slavery by saying these people are put away to protect our society. The criminals, we say, earned their slavery. The mentally insane however did not.”
* Oh, boy. Perhaps we should just let all the criminals free Woody? This comparison is disturbingly naïve.
W:
“So the onus is on you, stretched, to define goodness. Goodness to who? “
* Que?
Hipparchia
Registered Senior Member
The site relates to missionaries working in a Western setting and seeking to convert Jews in that setting. It has nothing to do with missionaries who go out into the Third World and as part of their missionary work offer material as well as spiritual aid. Why are you raising it?Godless said:
I have to say your approach on this has all the appearance of intellectual dishonesty, which I believe is the politically correct way of referring to deliberate deception. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent still.
click
click
I realize that not all are like this, however their main motive for doing what they are doing is to convert to their religion. Hence this is not truly a humanitarian thing they are doing, the humanitarian helps without strings attached, like when the US government steped in to help, they didn't come to convert to our way of life or religion, they simply came to help.
humor
Godless
Hipparchia
Registered Senior Member
Godless,
in the post of yours which I questioned your first item is about debating techniques used to convince Western Jews to convert. I want to stick with that first item on your first post. In what way does it justify your contention about Christian Missionaries? I contend it does not and that we should therefore discard it from your argument. Do you agree to this? Please do not continue to do what you have done in every post since my first one - i.e post more unrelated links and refuse to answer the direct question relating to those specific links.
in the post of yours which I questioned your first item is about debating techniques used to convince Western Jews to convert. I want to stick with that first item on your first post. In what way does it justify your contention about Christian Missionaries? I contend it does not and that we should therefore discard it from your argument. Do you agree to this? Please do not continue to do what you have done in every post since my first one - i.e post more unrelated links and refuse to answer the direct question relating to those specific links.
Look who's talking
Debating techniques, or treachery?
I read most of that site, what it amounts to is missionaries using their rhetoric trying to convince a sister religion "basically" to convert from judaism, to christianity. Basically what I've been saying all along. Missionaries go to third world countries, to convert the people to christianity, they start by helping, but if these people refuse their religious rhetoric, they either leave, or deny them any further aid. This is not humanitarian, a humanitarian helps a society of people, with out trying to "influence" their religion, behavior, culture, faiths or beliefs. This people do nothing of the kind. they go under the quise of "humanitarianism" but in reality they are just trying to get converts to christianity.
I think that said it all!. Don't you think?
Godless
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Oh! hell with editing again.
BTW I found another site, that speaks about the same thing basically. Feast your eyes on my rhetoric.
Jews for Judaism
* It is extremely disconcerting to realize that the conversion of the Jewish community has been, and continues to be, the focus and fulfillment of the spiritual needs of millions of people.
For centuries, attempts have been made to foster the conversion of the Jewish people to Christianity. In the past, these efforts have resulted in the Crusades, the Talmud Trials (in France and Germany), and in hostile acts which insisted on conversion at the pain of death in numerous countries in Europe. The Jewish community has always resisted these attempts at forcible conversion.
However, those seeking to convert Jews to Christianity have changed their tactics in recent decades. Rather than force Jews to learn to live as Christians, the Hebrew-Christian Movement has created a religious setting that supposedly allows -- and even encourages -- Jews to retain their Jewish identities while at the same time embracing Jesus. In short, they have redefined Jewish custom and practice, and joined them to the beliefs of Christian fundamentalism, thus corrupting true Jewish belief. Their tactics are subtle and insidious. It can be difficult for the modern Jew to recognize them as corrupting influences on Jewish life.Ref.
Missionaries bring conflict when they are not wanted. They should just leave people be, let them believe their religion, get the hell out, or suffer the consequences. India under fire
*THIS PAGE EXPOSES THE EVIL FORCES THAT ARE AGAINST THE HINDU PEOPLE. EACH OF THESE PERSONS
AND OR ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF LEADING EFFORTS AGAINST OUR MOVEMENT THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS OR OTHERWISE. THEIR CRIMES ARE CRIMES AGAINST THE HINDU PEOPLE.
KNOW YOUR ENEMIES! KNOW WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWNFALL OF BHARAT!...and prepare yourselves for the duty towards your religion and nation.
-HinduUnity.org
The Pope - Crime: One of the biggest enemies of Hinduism. He has vowed to harvest India into Christianity. This devil is the backbone of all the immoral, unethical and forceful conversions in India. Hindus need to be aware about the forces at work to tear Hinduism apart. The Vatican, which the Pope is head provides huge amounts of money for missionary activities, particularly in India. The money is hundreds of millions of dollars. These missionaries do anything they can to convert. They purposely pass of misinformation about Hinduism, use monetary incentives and these are two of the mildest methods. The Pope has said in no uncertain terms that he will 'harvest India to Christianity'. This automatically makes the Pope an enemy of Hindus. Our heritage and culture is so rich, it is something to be preserved and appreciated. Why do they want to wipe Hindu culture of the face of the Earth? Conversion to Christianity robs so much of a Hindu. Our scriptures cover the same conduct as Christianity (albeit with more reasoning) but the most important robbery is of freedom. In Hinduism one can has the opportunity to question beliefs and choose which to be adopted and still be a Hindu. With Christianity you have to accept the Bible and Christ or you will go to hell! The bible famously quotes Christ as saying:
'None come to God accept through me'
But in the Bhagwad Geeta Shree Krishna says
'People can come to me through all paths'
It is not our intention to insult Christianity - but doesn't a system which believes that sincerity of worship, nobility of thought and action and unselfishness (among other qualities) get a person to God regardless of whom they decide to worship make more sense? Isn't such a system of reason based religion something to be preserved and protected at all costs? It would promote peace between religions but alas Christianity cannot see it (Muslims of course need no mention). ref.
You want any bright idea? get rid of the freaking missionaries, and peace shall come to these countries in religious conflicts.
Godless
BTW I found another site, that speaks about the same thing basically. Feast your eyes on my rhetoric.
Jews for Judaism
* It is extremely disconcerting to realize that the conversion of the Jewish community has been, and continues to be, the focus and fulfillment of the spiritual needs of millions of people.
For centuries, attempts have been made to foster the conversion of the Jewish people to Christianity. In the past, these efforts have resulted in the Crusades, the Talmud Trials (in France and Germany), and in hostile acts which insisted on conversion at the pain of death in numerous countries in Europe. The Jewish community has always resisted these attempts at forcible conversion.
However, those seeking to convert Jews to Christianity have changed their tactics in recent decades. Rather than force Jews to learn to live as Christians, the Hebrew-Christian Movement has created a religious setting that supposedly allows -- and even encourages -- Jews to retain their Jewish identities while at the same time embracing Jesus. In short, they have redefined Jewish custom and practice, and joined them to the beliefs of Christian fundamentalism, thus corrupting true Jewish belief. Their tactics are subtle and insidious. It can be difficult for the modern Jew to recognize them as corrupting influences on Jewish life.Ref.
Missionaries bring conflict when they are not wanted. They should just leave people be, let them believe their religion, get the hell out, or suffer the consequences. India under fire
*THIS PAGE EXPOSES THE EVIL FORCES THAT ARE AGAINST THE HINDU PEOPLE. EACH OF THESE PERSONS
AND OR ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF LEADING EFFORTS AGAINST OUR MOVEMENT THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS OR OTHERWISE. THEIR CRIMES ARE CRIMES AGAINST THE HINDU PEOPLE.
KNOW YOUR ENEMIES! KNOW WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWNFALL OF BHARAT!...and prepare yourselves for the duty towards your religion and nation.
-HinduUnity.org
The Pope - Crime: One of the biggest enemies of Hinduism. He has vowed to harvest India into Christianity. This devil is the backbone of all the immoral, unethical and forceful conversions in India. Hindus need to be aware about the forces at work to tear Hinduism apart. The Vatican, which the Pope is head provides huge amounts of money for missionary activities, particularly in India. The money is hundreds of millions of dollars. These missionaries do anything they can to convert. They purposely pass of misinformation about Hinduism, use monetary incentives and these are two of the mildest methods. The Pope has said in no uncertain terms that he will 'harvest India to Christianity'. This automatically makes the Pope an enemy of Hindus. Our heritage and culture is so rich, it is something to be preserved and appreciated. Why do they want to wipe Hindu culture of the face of the Earth? Conversion to Christianity robs so much of a Hindu. Our scriptures cover the same conduct as Christianity (albeit with more reasoning) but the most important robbery is of freedom. In Hinduism one can has the opportunity to question beliefs and choose which to be adopted and still be a Hindu. With Christianity you have to accept the Bible and Christ or you will go to hell! The bible famously quotes Christ as saying:
'None come to God accept through me'
But in the Bhagwad Geeta Shree Krishna says
'People can come to me through all paths'
It is not our intention to insult Christianity - but doesn't a system which believes that sincerity of worship, nobility of thought and action and unselfishness (among other qualities) get a person to God regardless of whom they decide to worship make more sense? Isn't such a system of reason based religion something to be preserved and protected at all costs? It would promote peace between religions but alas Christianity cannot see it (Muslims of course need no mention). ref.
You want any bright idea? get rid of the freaking missionaries, and peace shall come to these countries in religious conflicts.
Godless
Godless said:
The bible says it's ok to sell yourself into slavery, and we still do it today. Think about it next time you buy a house or car on credit terms.
The only difference is you can declare bankruptcy for failure to pay a debt. In biblical times you were sold into slavery to compensate the debt. It was in a time before the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, corporations, banks, and such. All loans were personal loans from one person to another. Bankruptcy was not an option -- perhaps rightfully so because of the damage it caused the lending party without any kind of fiduciary protection.
Oh, I want to thank Godless for his reference verse that he provided to help clarify matters:
Matthew 18:25:
Bankruptcy was not an option -- there were no banks.
This, by the way, is the model for hell.
"What shall a man give in return for his own soul?" "Every infraction against every dot and tittle of the law shall be paid for in full."
In hell every man is held captive by his own sin, thus making him a "sin slave." It may have been fun on earth, but not in hell.
Matthew 18:25:
Bankruptcy was not an option -- there were no banks.
This, by the way, is the model for hell.
"What shall a man give in return for his own soul?" "Every infraction against every dot and tittle of the law shall be paid for in full."
In hell every man is held captive by his own sin, thus making him a "sin slave." It may have been fun on earth, but not in hell.
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