Then what do you consider free will to be, and how do you think it manifests?
Conservation of souls?
- Thread starter James R
- Start date
He's already given evidence, which you reject without discussion. So he is asking what evidence do you require.
So...?
An atheist observation no doubt.
Seriously. What else are you going to think?
How does an atheist recognise God?
Jan.
It has to do with whether events, even just thoughts, are the result of a deterministic universe of cause and effect or whether we have personal agency to change things other than what could have resulted from cause and effect. You could be paralyzed, blind and deaf, and this question would still exist. It's more an issue of philosophical action rather than practical action. Are we really able to make novel choices?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
No. It is an empirical observation.
"I see stuff" is empirical.
"I see God putting stuff there" or I see "physics putting stuff there" are both rationalizations of the empirical observation.
Stuff is stuff - until and unless you posit a cause for it. And that posit requires evidence in order to be rational.
You, jan, do that - just like any atheist or theist does. For you, it happens to be instant and automatic, but you still do it. i.e. "I see stuff. It's there because God put it there".
And just for good measure:
is an ad hom. It tries to imply that the observer's observation is less valid because of who they are. That's a logical fallacy.
After work I spent the afternoon just kicked back on a brick wall downtown, watching people, drinking coffee and enjoying the sun. Probably sounds ordinary to most people, but it felt exceptional to me.
How is that evidence of God?
That isn't true. I picked up on somebody else's request for evidence. I haven't seen anything to reject. As for as I can see, Bowser hasn't presented any evidence for his beliefs - in fact, he doen't seem to need any evidence for his own satisfaction. I can respect that.
What I don't respect is pretending that there is evidence when there isn't.
The same way that theists recognise unicorns.
How can it be anything else? When you look at the whole of life--everything--do you believe it an accident? I know that is highly simplified for someone searching for meaning where there is none, but it's the best I can offer in words without writing my own book. It's like looking at a cloud. It's as confused as can be in form and meaning, yet it is a cloud. Just like you are you. There's no rime or reason to your existence, yet here you are, being you.
Like I said, an atheist observation.
You explain it how you like, other people explain it how they like. But it is nothing more than conscious experience.
Your rationalisation of it requires evidence. Do you have any?
What is the need in saying "God put it there"? When you see a park bench, do say "a human put it there?
Really?
I'll take you seriously when you address the real ad homs directed at Bowser.
Jan.
So going back to my post #314
Here is my list of 5 items I can look at, which are part of your all there is, and not see god
Just like your list I looked and - did not see god - and provided explanations as to origins
- Eye worm Acanthamoeba castellanii, a parasite which lives in the eye
- HIV virus
- Volcano Krakatoa thtps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1883_eruption_of_Krakatoa
- Cymothoa exigua, or the tongue-eating louse, is a parasitic isopod of the family Cymothoidaeh ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymothoa_exigua
I'm sure we could Ping Pong list - you see god / creator - I see physics / biology / neutrality
- Tornado Alley is a colloquial term for the area of the United States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_Alley
you see god in those?
You really really don't see any other options?
Your not even going to give physics a chance? not even a hearing?
PHYSICS - you know uncaring, non thinking, non anthropomorphic Sky Daddy
PHYSICS the one area where every scientists in the field is trying as hard as they can to make more and more accurate measurements of everything in the Universe to nail down how it works. In other words looking for evidence
Religious persons don't need to build anything like a CERN
With nothing more than the unaided eyeball, mystery of the Universe solved
"Sky Daddy, thank you for our daily bread and this bountiful world with grass and
as well as the exceptional
Amen
Really??? Sky Daddy, with all associated baggage, sounds more likely than physics?
I appreciate what you're saying but you are using a different meaning of free will.
You are looking at it from pure cause and effect, and in what you say I do not disagree.
But whether someone considers freewill illusory or not, it still exists, just as a mirage isn't what it appears to be but it still exists in its own way.
A magic trick still exists, even if it isn't what it appears to be.
So, irrespective of whether one is considering freewill illusory or real, it remains curtailed the fewer available options there are, up to the point that there is but one option, and then no freewill, illusory or otherwise.
You keep building a God personality "Sky Daddy." The only person that can be associated with God is you, and even that is a an artificial wrapper.
That's you being evasive again. You profess to know what I think but you can't tell us what you think.
Not an accident but the inevitable result of how the physical universe works.
I'm not searching for meaning. Are you admitting that there is none? You sound like somebody searching for buried treasure who's thrilled when you find a rusty washer.
And all phenomena is explained as such, including yourself? Are you an expression of the physical universe?
I don't believe there is any hidden meaning in life or existence. It simply IS.
Perhaps I find treasure where you find rusty washers.
Yes.
If you're satisfied with rusty washers, that's fine. I can find a use for rusty washers too - I just don't pretend they're treasure.
I don't think it's an accident at all. I also don't think it was formed by some supernatural entity, though. We now understand much of how life and the universe works - and there is no requirement for an external intelligence to create it all.
That does not, of course, mean that the universe, our planet, life is any more amazing.
Would a bowl of oatmeal be a rusty washer, or would it be treasure? How about the moment you open your eyes in the morning? Would that be a rusty washer or a treasure? Sitting behind your computer responding to my posts--rusty washer or treasure?
My attitude is, Bob, every moment is treasure.
Who said it is external? Are you an external intelligence, something separate from the whole? Looking at you, I can imply quite a lot about the Universe...God.