City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

I have yet to see a single justification for hitting a child thus far in this thread. .
Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.

Hitting children at the wrong time, in the wrong way, for the wrong reason may be an obvious abuse of a child, but I should like to see you demonstrate that it is more damaging than quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behaviour. Bad parenting is determined by outcome and intent, not by appearance.
 
Ummm, not a single person is honest a hundred percent of the time.

Nor hitting a child because he lies is the answer always.

Of course it's not *always* the answer, but the point is: if you never hit your child, ever, then what offense at school would lead you to sanctioning their hitting your child? No offense is grave enough to warrant your inflicting corporal punishment, but (apparently) there are offenses where one would sanction another person's doing the same thing?

Can someone provide me with a hypothetical situation in which a child's misbehavior would not be enough to warrant a paddling at home, but would be enough to give permission for it to be done at school?

If your child deserves a paddling, the teachers should let you know it, and then you should sack up and do it yourself. If you feel that your child never deserves one, no problem, but then he doesn't deserve one no matter who administers it. Talk about the basics of limited government: the government should not be spanking our children.
 
Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.

Hitting children at the wrong time, in the wrong way, for the wrong reason may be an obvious abuse of a child, but I should like to see you demonstrate that it is more damaging than quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behaviour. Bad parenting is determined by outcome and intent, not by appearance.

Good points.


Mordea and Bells have both outlined some stories of very bad administration and teachers.

My own experience with teachers- in several different states in the USA, From California, Maryland, Texas and others has been very positive and friendly.

I think Most ANY of them would be absolutely appalled at the thought of beating children senseless.

I think perception is playing a very large part in disagreements here.

Bells and Mordea describe teachers as something out of a "Brick In The Wall" video.

But my and my sons experience with teachers is strongly suggestive that these people would be weak handed with a paddle.

If my experience had been as Bells or Mordea describe, I undoubtedly would be opposed to the very idea.

I think a lot of us need to really step back and ask ourselves how accurate our perceptions are.

I had GREAT teachers. They encouraged, helped, took personal time to tutor students. Kind of teachers that hugged you at the end of the day and bought students gifts at the end of the year to say goodbye.

My English teacher in high school bought EVERYONE in my class a gift card for $50 at Barnes and Noble.
That's a lot of students at $50 a pop!

The idea of them maniacally swatting children is foreign to me.
 
The idea of them maniacally swatting children is foreign to me.

Of course the average teacher would not maniacally do that, but not every teacher is the average. Not every teacher has sex with students, but some sure do. I have difficulty believing this rule allowing paddling only applies to the "good teachers" rather than "all teachers."

Since it is undeniably true that parents have the power to administer corporal punishment on their own children, why do school personnel need to be given the authority as well? Are parents too lazy to spank their kids when the school suggests it?
 
It's the lazy way

Ophiolite said:

Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.

It's a short-term convenience for the authority figure.
 
Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.

Hitting children at the wrong time, in the wrong way, for the wrong reason may be an obvious abuse of a child, but I should like to see you demonstrate that it is more damaging than quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behaviour. Bad parenting is determined by outcome and intent, not by appearance.
But this presents a false dilemma. I doubt anyone is advocating quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behavior.

Further the good outcome implicit in

Bad parenting is determined by outcome and intent, not by appearance.
is very hard to track. How do we know what children who are hit will avoid trying in the future - as one example amongst many. I am sure that sexually abusing children who do naughty things would rapidly getting them to shut up in class.
 
I have difficulty believing this rule allowing paddling only applies to the "good teachers" rather than "all teachers."
According to the OP, paddling can be done ONLY By Administration.
Not by any or all teachers.

When I was in school, only the principle or vice principle could do it and there had to be witnesses.

Since it is undeniably true that parents have the power to administer corporal punishment on their own children, why do school personnel need to be given the authority as well? Are parents too lazy to spank their kids when the school suggests it?

Some parents are against spanking as a disciplinary action. Others ARE too lazy. Lastly, parents don't sit with students in class.

How do we know what children who are hit will avoid trying in the future - as one example amongst many.
No one knows at this time.

Spanking is a VERY OLD means of discipline.
Were it as bad as some suggest, the world would have been overrun with psychotic parent haters millenia ago.

The average parent that does spank is not abusive and the average children coming out of homes that use spanking turn out normal.

Often, they laugh later in life talking about a heavy handed parent.

However, physically abusive parents are demonstrated to cause mental harm and anguish to young people that grow up mentally scarred from the abuse.

Additionally, very Sensitive children can be mentally harmed by normal spanking.

I am sure that sexually abusing children who do naughty things would rapidly getting them to shut up in class.

So would killing them. Going to ridiculous extremes is just silly.
 
No one knows at this time.

Spanking is a VERY OLD means of discipline.
Were it as bad as some suggest, the world would have been overrun with psychotic parent haters millenia ago.
I doubt many of the anti-spankers think this is the result of spanking. Many people justify even their own sexual abuse by their parents. How much more so when you get to behavior that much of society considers the norm and which was clearly the norm not that long ago. I think the effects vary and are not so simple and often the problematic results do not end up being conscious ideas about their own parents, but rather trust in the world, trust in communication to resolve issues, ideas about the need for violence, fear of challenging authority and so on.

The average parent that does spank is not abusive and the average children coming out of homes that use spanking turn out normal.
as far as I can tell normal is problematic out there. Normal tends to go along with authority, does not use critical thinking, has poor intuition, can be easily manipulated into supporting war - for example - thinks that brand name clothing is better than other clothing and ends up repeating the mistakes their parents made.
Often, they laugh later in life talking about a heavy handed parent.
And laughter can have a lot of things at the root of it.
However, physically abusive parents are demonstrated to cause mental harm and anguish to young people that grow up mentally scarred from the abuse.
I don't think spanking is the same as a beating. Nor do I think a teacher groping a child or comment on the child's nice rack is the same as a rape.

Additionally, very Sensitive children can be mentally harmed by normal spanking.
So how does a parent decide whether their child is one of these?


So would killing them. Going to ridiculous extremes is just silly.
Perhaps spanking is a silly extreme. It only seems not extreme because we are used to it. Further, I was responding to him mentioning outcomes. People tend to be very narrow on issues like this about what the outcomes are. If we go back to the OP, I really doubt that when the city saw 'major improvement' they weighed in many of the likely effects - some more long term - of this kind of policy.

Humans seem to have to learn that effectiveness is often a short cut. Take anythign from antibiotics to the drug war. Sure it got rid of that infection very fast, but how was their immune system after a childhood with this approach and what kinds of microorganisms are we creating. Sure, we got that drug dealer in prison for 20 years. People tend to focus on cause and effects with humans in Newtonian terms (and short term ones at that). And then they get proud of all their major improvements. The outcomes they focus on. My examples are not meant to be direct analogies. I do think antiobiotics should be used, but probably much, much less. On the other hand, I think the whole drug war needs to be torn up from the routes. The main idea of the analogy was this 'effectiveness' evaluation
that I think tends to be naive and self-serving.

And when will people actually face their fear of not having control?

The onus in on those in favor of spanking. They need to show that it is necessary and not just based on a belief passed on, like a religious one, and used out of habit.

Spanking is actually illegal in Sweden and they still manage to have a decent society. And, not coincidentally, a very secular one.
 
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neverfly said:
Who ever said anything about "CANING?"
The OP, describing the hitting of children with wooden sticks of various shape. Something wrong with the term? I believe it was and remains one of the standard terms for such punishment in English boarding schools, such as here where it is used for hitting with anything from a hairbrush to a stick of ash.
In the US we have "paddling", and the same people who refer to "paddling" with specialty wooden implements also refer to "spanking" with hairbrushes and belts - as here . We may clearly choose our terms from a wide selection, and "caning" is my choice.
neverfly said:
Children turn out fine raised in all kinds of ways - some of them. So there is no reason to choose a way that seems to produce a disproportionate number of adults who have not turned out fine.

These two statements completely contradict each other.
No, they don't. You aren't following the argument.

Given two ways of raising lots of children who turn out fine, why would you choose the way that seems to have raised the largest proportion of children who have not? And if the proportions are more or less equal, why would you choose the more clearly abusive way?
neverfly said:
Those statements, yours and mine, do not conflict. My argument only requires that my anecdotal part be accurate - which it is.

If it is anecdotal, of COURSE you will claim it is accurate.
That does not mean it actually IS accurate. It only means that from your experience, you guess it Should be accurate.
It is a statement about my own personal, anecdotal experience. It is accurate, about that. It is not a guess about what my own experience has been.
neverfly said:
This, is anecdotal, and based upon the idea that SPANKING was used instead of Physically Abusive parents.

You do not know the difference so you lump it all into one group.
It is not me who does not know whatever difference you find significant, but the people telling me about their childhoods. They describe it as "spanking" and the like, and they give it it credit for teaching them right from wrong. They say this while sitting in jail cells, talking to me in truck cabs in which I am driving because the State no longer licenses them to drive trucks, describing from bar stools how their wives or workmates or passing strangers pushed them to violence, explaining in line at the temp agency how their estranged parents were not to blame for their various hardships and crimes and mistakes, and so forth.

neverfly said:
But my and my sons experience with teachers is strongly suggestive that these people would be weak handed with a paddle.

If my experience had been as Bells or Mordea describe, I undoubtedly would be opposed to the very idea.

I think a lot of us need to really step back and ask ourselves how accurate our perceptions are.
The question is not the accuracy of your perceptions, but your apparent belief that they contradict other people's equally accurate perceptions of their different experiences.

Bad teachers, sadistic and unjust and incompetent and abusive administrators, mean adn insecure and sleazy school officials of various kinds exist. You advocate giving them permission to hit schoolchildren with pieces of wood, on their own judgment and for their own reasons.
 
Bells sent me a link to read. I will comment further after reviewing it. I see that people have responded to me, however, there may be no sense in refuting those comments should it turn out the link sent persuades me to reconsider my position.
 
Ophiolite said:
Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.
It's a short-term convenience for the authority figure.
If one of the parties is perceiving themselves as an authority figure rather than a mentor then it is not being done in the right context. In short your 'objection' describes one of the situations I have specifically excluded.

Doreen said:
But this presents a false dilemma. I doubt anyone is advocating quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behavior.
But strong, definitive rejection of corporal punishment in the face of any opposition generates such quiescent acceptance in the actions (or rather inactions) of less confident parents. The vigorous rejection of corporal punishment implicitly favours 'doing nothing'. The dilema is created by those anti-corporal punsihment activists.

How do we know what children who are hit will avoid trying in the future
How do we know how children who are not hit will wind up doing in future? Your question has to be asked of all possible activities and inactivities in the parenting spectrum. You cannot use it and the alleged absence of an answer to justify a position either for or against.

Note: I have no opinion on the application of corporal punishment to children. Bells said no one had offered a justification. I gave her one. I do think the anti-arguments presented have been logically flawed and that does not incline me to support them.
 
ophiolite said:
If one of the parties is perceiving themselves as an authority figure rather than a mentor then it is not being done in the right context. In short your 'objection' describes one of the situations I have specifically excluded
So you specifically exclude the situation described in the OP?

Does your included situation have any provision for the perceptions of the whackee, as opposed to the self-perception of the whacker? That is, if the vice-principal in charge of hitting the misbehaved perceives themselves as a "mentor", and the misbehaving hit perceives said hitter as an "authority figure" or worse, is there some kind of adjustment factor in your evaluation protocol that takes the disagreement into account? How about the opinions of bystanders?
ophiolite said:
How do we know how children who are not hit will wind up doing in future? Your question has to be asked of all possible activities and inactivities in the parenting spectrum. You cannot use it and the alleged absence of an answer to justify a position either for or against.
You can, if you place the burden of proof on the advocacy of hitting. Which seems reasonable to me, considering the evidence from the general society.
 
(chortle!)

Ophiolite said:

If one of the parties is perceiving themselves as an authority figure rather than a mentor then it is not being done in the right context. In short your 'objection' describes one of the situations I have specifically excluded.

When you get to the point that you are mentoring the child by directing violence against him, you are exercising authority.
 
When you get to the point that you are mentoring the child by directing violence against him, you are exercising authority.

Whenever you make someone do something whether they want to or not you are exercising authority. Teachers are mentors, but they are also authority figures.
 
But strong, definitive rejection of corporal punishment in the face of any opposition generates such quiescent acceptance in the actions (or rather inactions) of less confident parents. The vigorous rejection of corporal punishment implicitly favours 'doing nothing'. The dilema is created by those anti-corporal punsihment activists.
I've just seen absolutely no evidence of this. I see the anti-corporal punishment group as having a wealth of literature and practices related to doing something and how to do this something in the face of problems with children or setting limits to dissuading them from certain behavior. I have seem them (myself included) living out these practices actively. This seems a hallucination to me. Sure, there are people in that camp who do nothing but whine or say don't with no follow through. But there can be a inherent passivity in some who use CP. It is often a shortcut, in fact. It is often less action than the actions taken by people who use other approaches.
How do we know how children who are not hit will wind up doing in future?
Well, look at the Swedes. It is not only culturally taboo but illegal there. Of course some do it. But you are looking at a people that in general see CP as bad, have made laws in support of this belief and general consensus is against it. Nevertheless they are doing fairly well by most measures.

Your question has to be asked of all possible activities and inactivities in the parenting spectrum. You cannot use it and the alleged absence of an answer to justify a position either for or against.
See above. But also the more force used the more justification one needs to have. Tradition should not carry some epistemological weight.

Note: I have no opinion on the application of corporal punishment to children. Bells said no one had offered a justification. I gave her one. I do think the anti-arguments presented have been logically flawed and that does not incline me to support them.
If I really had no reason to support or reject two policies I would tend to be better inclined toward the one that was less violent. If there was a great deal of evidence it was better and it was clear the people who advocated the use of force were taking into account the full range of effects, that might be a different matter.
 
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No disagreement here

CutsieMarie89 said:

Whenever you make someone do something whether they want to or not you are exercising authority. Teachers are mentors, but they are also authority figures.

I would definitely agree. I have much respect for Ophiolite; I don't think he's intentionally shorting me. To the other, though, that was all I could come up with; the hair he chose to split doesn't balance out on my scale. Maybe I'm calibrated wrongly on that one.
 
Done for the right reasons, in the right context and the right way, it generates desirable improvements in behaviour.
But does it?

For some children, it can work. But for others it does not.

My one issue with corporal punishment, especially that in schools, is that we are using violence to teach children that violence and bad behaviour is bad. I find that discomforting. We have seen study after study say the same thing. The desirable improvement in behaviour is usually short term and will usually apply to that particular behaviour. But in the long term, we are teaching children that violence is somehow acceptable to get a desired result. Is that acceptable? I personally don't think it is.


Hitting children at the wrong time, in the wrong way, for the wrong reason may be an obvious abuse of a child, but I should like to see you demonstrate that it is more damaging than quiescent acceptance of inappropriate behaviour. Bad parenting is determined by outcome and intent, not by appearance.
There appears to be this inherent belief that by not smacking or hitting a child, that one is doing nothing and allowing the child to continue with the same bad behaviour. I don't smack my children but if they do something bad or behave badly, they stop after we speak to them and they don't do it again.

Why is that? Is smacking the only option available in the hope of correcting a child's bad behaviour?

My husband's best friend is a primary school teacher. He sees children in all shapes and sizes, who come from a variety of backgrounds. One thing he has noticed is that children who are smacked by their parents tend to have more violent tendencies. Some of these parents smack their children in the school when dropping or picking up their children. With some, any little thing results in a smack. Child does not get in the car fast enough, smacked across the backside. It is these children, as he has found, who tend to be more violent towards other children, in that when another child does not do as they want them to do, they smack them. A letter is sent home to the parents or the parent is advised of the violent episode when they arrive to pick up their child and what happens? They are then smacked for having hit another child. It doesn't work that way. Instead of explaining to the child why hitting is bad, they hit the child and tell them not to hit. What kind of message does it send to the child?

Children, far and wide, need solid encouragement and explanation, for pretty much everything. Simply resorting to a few whacks across the backside is an easy way out that sends a child the message that to get the desired result, one can simply use violence to achieve those means.

I have yet to see a single study that finds that smacking a child will obtain a desirable behavioural outcome in the long term. Every study I have seen points to the complete opposite. That children are not only mentally scarred by the corporal punishment they faced, but that they then go on to repeat the same pattern of behaviour when they grow up and have children. It is a cycle and one we have seen time and again where violence in the household is concerned.

I was smacked rarely by my parents as a child. It didn't work to be honest. My behaviour did not change as a whole. It just made me more wary of my parents as a child. I was virtually beaten until I was black and blue at school by a teacher who used violence to get the desired behavioural attitude she felt was correct. If her students got things wrong or did not do things exactly as she commanded, she hit us. The worst and this was just before her actions were discovered and I was removed from her class before she was fired, was when I was hit with a ruler 46 times in a day. I was also pinched on both arms, until I had these raised bruises on my arms. The behaviour that sparked her need to get me to tow the line? I failed a maths quiz. Now, prior to said quiz, I was always whacked across the back and the back of my hands with the sharp end of a very long wooden ruler. So when it came to the math quiz, I was in such terror that I got 46 questions wrong out of 100. Prior to starting in her class, maths was one of my best subjects. I'd get one or two questions wrong, but usually came out with the equivalent of an A in each quiz. Once I entered her class, those one or two questions started to grow, simply because I was hit each time I got an answer wrong. I laugh it off now, but I will never forget this particular teacher and what she did to us in that classroom. They were her rules and she was allowed to set the behavioural rules in her classroom. The weird thing is that she was never angry when she hit us. She never yelled at us. The result of her attempts to correct us with corporal punishment? I have hated maths ever since. I never again got an A in maths. What was once a favourite subject became one that would quite literally have me crying as a child before each class and as soon as maths stopped becoming a compulsory subject, I dropped it entirely. And even now, 30 years later, I can still feel the sting of each time she hit me with the sharp edge of that ruler across my back and backside and across the back of my hands. It is entirely psychological and I accept that and I try to laugh it off. But the damage she did to me as a child is still carried by me now, even 30 years later. She was not arrested for it. It was her classroom and therefore her rules. She was dismissed for being a bit too forceful with said rules.

I can't accept that resorting to violence against child is the answer. As adults, we consider being smacked assault. But for some bizarre reason, we seem to accept that it is okay to use the same type of violence against children. I have asked Neverfly this question several times now in this thread, and he has avoided answering it each time. Why is it assault to smack an adult but not assault to smack a child? There are countless of studies that states corporal punishment has a detrimental long term affect on children. Yet we still allow it and justify it as a means to correct bad behaviour. It reeks of hypocrisy.
 
I can't accept that resorting to violence against child is the answer. As adults, we consider being smacked assault.
That is not true. If someone smacked your behind, (nothing sexual just to cause pain) you'd have a ridiculously hard time trying to get the police to do anything other than wonder why you called them. I know this from personal experience, a woman called the police on her stepdaughter (17) for slapping her butt and the police stood around and scratched their heads. No arrest was made.

But for some bizarre reason, we seem to accept that it is okay to use the same type of violence against children.
So yes, for the exact same reason it is acceptable to use this type of violence against children.

I have asked Neverfly this question several times now in this thread, and he has avoided answering it each time. Why is it assault to smack an adult but not assault to smack a child?
I don't know why Neverfly has never answered you, but it is considered assault to slap, kick, or punch a child just as it is for adults.

There are countless of studies that states corporal punishment has a detrimental long term affect on children. Yet we still allow it and justify it as a means to correct bad behaviour. It reeks of hypocrisy.

What are the detrimental long term effects? I would like to see if I exhibit any of these. If I do then maybe I'll change my personal stance.
 
That is not true. If someone smacked your behind, (nothing sexual just to cause pain) you'd have a ridiculously hard time trying to get the police to do anything other than wonder why you called them. I know this from personal experience, a woman called the police on her stepdaughter (17) for slapping her butt and the police stood around and scratched their heads. No arrest was made.
That's not necessarily the same situation. If I came up to you, forced you to bent over my knee and with an open palm smacked you with the intent to cause pain, the police would probably put me in handcuffs and take me in. It would be an assault.

So yes, for the exact same reason it is acceptable to use this type of violence against children.
we're just used to it. Or, some people are. I see no evidence we need to raise it to a use of physical force.

What are the detrimental long term effects? I would like to see if I exhibit any of these. If I do then maybe I'll change my personal stance.
It would vary. Some would be conformist. Many would think twice before disagreeing with authorities. Many would find they tended to trust authorities figures - rather than question them. But others might act out and be more violent, less easy to handle. People react to violence in different ways.
 
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