City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

[Bells]

That is not true. If someone smacked your behind, (nothing sexual just to cause pain) you'd have a ridiculously hard time trying to get the police to do anything other than wonder why you called them. I know this from personal experience, a woman called the police on her stepdaughter (17) for slapping her butt and the police stood around and scratched their heads. No arrest was made.

Lets say that I am your employer. Lets say that I call you to the front of the reception desk and ask you to bend over and grab onto the edge of the desk as I paddle your backside with a wooden paddle. If I did such a thing, I would be arrested.

If I were your spouse and I smacked you, I would end up being arrested.

If I were your university lecturer and I smacked you on the backside, I would end up being arrested.

Lets say I see you on the street and I grab you and make you bend over and smack your backside, either with my hand or with a paddle. I would be arrested for assault.

But if you are under 18 and I am your teacher or your parent, I would not be arrested. Why is that, do you think?

So yes, for the exact same reason it is acceptable to use this type of violence against children.

And yet, prison guards in jail cannot smack a prisoner in the US. But that same prison guard can go home and smack his kids because they spilled a drink on the floor and he would not be arrested for that, but would be arrested for smacking a murderer. In short, in the US, a prisoner has more rights than a child does against violence.

I don't think it is acceptable to raise one's hand against a child. Do you think it is acceptable?

I don't know why Neverfly has never answered you, but it is considered assault to slap, kick, or punch a child just as it is for adults.

I can slap my child and not be arrested because he is a child and it is deemed corporal punishment. I slap my spouse in the same way and I can be arrested. I can get a wooden paddle and smack my kids behind with it. If I do the same with my spouse, I can be arrested.

Why are children deemed less worthy of protection from violence from their family and educators than adults are against anyone?

It would vary. Some would be conformist. Many would think twice before disagreeing with authorities. Many would find they tended to trust authorities figures - rather than question them. But others might act out and be more violent, less easy to handle. People react to violence in different ways.

This is for the people who are pro corporal punishment..

Do you have a study that shows that smacking or spanking is beneficial in the long term? Every single study I have seen states that it is not beneficial in the long term.

We smack because we were smacked. We smack because it is quick and easy and we don't have to explain to the child why it's wrong. Just a few quick smacks with the hand, belt, spoon or paddle and we're set. The only thing we need to be careful of is to not mark the child physically.. or ensure the mark disappears within a set period of time. Could you imagine your spouse doing that to you?

For those who are pro hitting a child.. I tell you what. If you know an adult person who is hit at home, tell tem that they can either conform to it, they should think twice about disobeying authority, tell them they can also learn to trust the person hitting them because it is for their own good in the long run or they can hit back later on. Because that is what we are telling ourselves when we smack our kids. The same should apply to adults as well, don't you think?

 

[Neverfly]

I don't know why Neverfly has never answered you, but it is considered assault to slap, kick, or punch a child just as it is for adults.

It is assault, by law, to slap an adult on the butt.

It is not assault, by law, to smack your own child on the butt.

I have not avoided answering this question.

I have answered it to the best of my ability. Bells claim that I avoided is typical of what happens when she disagrees with my answer.

The issue here is that those opposed to paddling tend to mix the issue with spanking.

I think this topic should discuss School Paddling ONLY.

Since the OP discusses one particular school, in which only Administrators can paddle, one in which only ONE paddling actually occurred, the discussion would be on topic to discuss that alone.

The various straw men introduced, about spanking, about teachers physically assaulting students etc, are all different issues than the topic at hand.

What Bells linked to that I said I would read, was a court case involving Racially Charged School beatings at African Americans.

Although it may demonstrate racists stepping outside the law, apparently that resulted in a Court ruling, it is not truly relevant to this topic. The OP refers to a school, that again, had ONE paddling occur, on a white kid, no less and demonstrates ZERO racial profiling.

The stories told of abusive teachers: Although I sympathize with anyone that suffered under any, it reminds me of the Pink Floyd Brick in the Wall film.
It just is not demonstrated in real life except in a few isolated cases, that those who are opposed to the idea are quick to link to and proclaim, "Look what happens!"

Which is nonsense. Because there will ALWAYS be a few people that get out of hand. There was a driver a while back that attacked another driver because that other driver had an Obama bumpersticker. That isolated incident does not "prove" that republicans are violent hateful people or that Obama Bumperstickers should be banned.

So WHY is it "more acceptable" to spank a child?

Because unlike adults, children do not reason using fully developed intellect and logic. Fact is, a lot of adults don't even don't.

Even so, a child can head down a self destructive path, utterly oblivious to reality. Sometimes, a child needs something to get their attention.

Ultimately, it can be more harmful for people to believe that ALL children can reason as adults. Some children seem able to. Others seem to but actually don't. Some flat out don't and it's obvious.
There is no Blanket Treatment.
Some kids flat out seem to require a swat even if most don't.

Those that bleed their hearts and oppose the idea, can actually be harming these kids. Those kids grow up- Unhindered, into whatever undisciplined form that can lead to self destructive, manipulative or otherwise harmful behavior.

The OP refers to a school that re-instituted corporal punishment.
This resulted in only one case of paddling.
This seems to have resulted in improved behavior.
If there are people in this thread that disagree that it has demonstrated improved behavior, they must SHOW that the reporter claiming such has lied.
They must show that behavior has not improved.

I have not seen that done, not one bit, in this thread.

Their motive, it seems, is that they are personally appalled at the idea of striking children. And they exaggerate that in their minds as people "Getting off on Beating Children Senseless."

This thread is not a good show. I, for one, am tired of it.

 

[Bells]

I have answered it to the best of my ability. Bells claim that I avoided is typical of what happens when she disagrees with my answer.

You have just advised that violence against children is acceptable.

I think this topic should discuss School Paddling ONLY.

Yes, lets do that Neverfly. Care to answer why you don't smack your own child but would happily delegate for school staff to paddle your son's behind?

What Bells linked to that I said I would read, was a court case involving Racially Charged School beatings at African Americans.

Although it may demonstrate racists stepping outside the law, apparently that resulted in a Court ruling, it is not truly relevant to this topic. The OP refers to a school, that again, had ONE paddling occur, on a white kid, no less and demonstrates ZERO racial profiling.

You failed to grasp the basic gist of it.

What I sent you and have linked in this thread is why corporal punishment fails at law. It points out that prisoners have more rights against being hit than children do against being hit in schools by adults who are supposed to be there to protect them and shelter them from violence. It points out the demographics of those who have faced corporal punishment in US schools and points out that it is not just a racial divide, but also a sexual divide. It points out that in the past it was acceptable to beat a black person and we keep doing it today, so long as we work for a school and the person we are hitting is a child. It points out the hypocrisy of corporal punishment in schools.. places where children are sent to to learn and be protected from violence.. sometimes from violence in the home.. only to have staff be allowed to smack them when they deem it necessary.

The stories told of abusive teachers: Although I sympathize with anyone that suffered under any, it reminds me of the Pink Floyd Brick in the Wall film.
It just is not demonstrated in real life except in a few isolated cases, that those who are opposed to the idea are quick to link to and proclaim, "Look what happens!"

Again, you fail to grasp the simple fact that those who faced corporal punishment as children while attending school also live with those mental scars for years, if not for life. My mother was a school teacher and she never once hit one of her students, nor did she send any of her students to the principals office to be smacked. Do you know why? Because she preferred to speak to the children about their misbehaviour. Sometimes it would take months before she finally broke through that barrier, but she never once had to use violence to break through and she was successful each and every single time. Why is that?

Which is nonsense.

So you discount the opinion of experts as nonsense? From the link I sent you:

In 2002, psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff published meta-analyses that established an association
between parental corporal punishment of children and (1) decreased moral internalization, (2) increased child aggression, (3) increased child delinquent and antisocial conduct, (4) decreased quality of the parentchild relationship, (5) decreased child mental health, (6) increased risk of undergoing conventional physical child abuse; and, upon reaching maturity, (7) increased adult aggression, (8) increased adult criminal and antisocial behavior, (9) decreased adult mental health, and (10) increased risk of abusing one’s own child or spouse.57 She has since theorized that, in light of some of the parallels between the parent-child and teacher-student relationship, these negative impacts may result from school corporal punishment as well.58

It does not require a degree in psychology to figure out that some of these outcomes will indispose children to learn optimally or even minimally. For example, an overly aggressive child or a child plagued by emotional instability is sure to be distracted by more pressing urges and needs than soaking up the school curricula. As a matter of fact, Professor Irwin Hyman, a psychologist who has extensively studied school corporal punishment, has concluded that corporal punishment does indeed interfere with students’ ability to do schoolwork.59

I suppose putting children at risk of these insalubrious outcomes might be warranted if the scientific evidence also disclosed some extraordinary advantage unique to physical punishment, or if there was
no other means of disciplining students. Nobody on either side of the spanking debate wants to deprive children of beneficial discipline or to turn schools into dens of iniquity or chaos. Dr. Gershoff’s metaanalyses do reveal that corporal punishment is correlated with one arguably positive outcome: a smack will cause a child temporarily to cease his or her misconduct.60 Since cessation is fleeting, however, this outcome is hardly the type of advantage that would justify endangering children in the ways identified by Dr. Gershoff.

Moreover, there are more effective alternative disciplinary techniques for controlling children and instilling them with moral values. Schools have at their disposal an array of traditional non-corporal penalties that may be imposed such as expulsion, suspension, detention and parental pick-ups.61 Time-outs, deprivation of privileges, and explaining why misbehavior is unacceptable can readily be adapted to the school context.62 There are also programs especially suitable to employing school resources. These programs include providing character education curriculum, enlisting the assistance of school psychologists and counselors, giving student recognition awards for good behavior, and peer mediation.


(From page 110)
​

I guess we better tell them it's all nonsense.

So WHY is it "more acceptable" to spank a child?

Because unlike adults, children do not reason using fully developed intellect and logic. Fact is, a lot of adults don't even don't.

So their lack of ability to use a fully developed intellect and logic is the basis for using violence against them? I guess we can also start smacking people with dementia and alzheimers as well, since they also do not have or no longer have a fully developed intellect and logic. What about people who are mentally disabled? A few good whacks with a paddle should set them to right, eh Neverfly? Would that be acceptable for you?

What you are saying is that instead of helping them to develop their intellect and logic, instead of teaching them to use their logic, we should simply smack them with a wooden paddle or delegate school staff to whack them with a paddle instead. Nothing like teaching logic than by whacking them a few times with a wooden paddle.

Even so, a child can head down a self destructive path, utterly oblivious to reality. Sometimes, a child needs something to get their attention.

Apply that to an adult or your spouse and you'd be accused of spousal abuse. But a child? Hey, no problems.

Ultimately, it can be more harmful for people to believe that ALL children can reason as adults. Some children seem able to. Others seem to but actually don't. Some flat out don't and it's obvious.
There is no Blanket Treatment.
Some kids flat out seem to require a swat even if most don't.

And so do some adults. 'Damn bitch didn't get dinner ready on time.. She just isn't reasoning like I am reasoning'.. Do you think the damn bitch should get a paddle?

You are saying that because children do not reason as well as you do (like you reason so well), they deserve to be hit with a paddle while at school. And that will somehow get them or teach them to reason as you do.

Those that bleed their hearts and oppose the idea, can actually be harming these kids. Those kids grow up- Unhindered, into whatever undisciplined form that can lead to self destructive, manipulative or otherwise harmful behavior.

Nice, crying 'think of the children' while advocating hitting them with a wooden paddle at school.

Why do you assume that they would grow up "unhindered" if they are not smacked at school Neverfly? You don't think that as adults, that we should be in a position to find a non-violent solution? Are we incapable of that?

The OP refers to a school that re-instituted corporal punishment.
This resulted in only one case of paddling.
This seems to have resulted in improved behavior.
If there are people in this thread that disagree that it has demonstrated improved behavior, they must SHOW that the reporter claiming such has lied.
They must show that behavior has not improved.

We have supported our claims. Thus far, you have not supported yours at all. Here is a small list of organisations in the US that oppose corporal punishment in schools:

Among the forty national organizations opposed to school corporal punishment are the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Bar Association, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the
National Association of Elementary School Principals, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the National Association of Social Workers, the National Education Association, the National Mental Health Association, the National Association of School Nurses, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of State Boards of Education. Center for Effective Discipline, Discipline at School (NCACPS): U.S. Organizations Opposed to School Corporal Punishment, at http://www.stophitting.org/ disatschool/usorgs.php (last visited Sept. 26, 2004).

Footnote 119
​

Please, provide links that not smacking a child at school with a paddle will result in the child growing up to be "undisciplined", "self destructive, manipulative or" exhibit "otherwise harmful behavior".

I await your links with great anticipation.

Their motive, it seems, is that they are personally appalled at the idea of striking children. And they exaggerate that in their minds as people "Getting off on Beating Children Senseless."

I'm sorry, but the idea of striking a child is not appalling to you?

Just so you are aware. Again, from the link I sent you:

At least five human rights treaties have been authoritatively construed to implicitly prohibit not just school corporal punishment of children but all corporal punishment of children.123 Those treaties are the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child,124 the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,125 the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights,126 the European Social Charters,127 and the American Convention on Human Rights.128 That corporal punishment of children is a human rights law violation marks the evolving standards of decency in the international community with respect to right treatment of children and reflects an advance in our comprehension as to what is “humane justice” toward children.

From page 122
​

 

[madanthonywayne]

What I sent you and have linked in this thread is why corporal punishment fails at law. It points out that prisoners have more rights against being hit than children do against being hit in schools by adults who are supposed to be there to protect them and shelter them from violence.

The beating required to discipline an adult would be so severe as to possibly result in permanent damage. Whereas a young child can be disciplined with a level of force that does no permanent damage and would hardly even be noticed by an adult. So there's really no comparison between adults and children on this issue.

Furthermore, very young children often lack the intellectual capacity to even understand other types of punishment.

Again, you fail to grasp the simple fact that those who faced corporal punishment as children while attending school also live with those mental scars for years , if not for life.

Give me a break. When I was in school we all faced the possibility of corporal punishment. No one was scarred. Not even one of my best friends who was a frequent recipient of said punishment.

So you discount the opinion of experts as nonsense? From the link I sent you:

In 2002, psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff published meta-analyses that established an association
between parental corporal punishment of children and (1) decreased moral internalization, (2) increased child aggression, (3) increased child delinquent and antisocial conduct, (4) decreased quality of the parentchild relationship, (5) decreased child mental health, (6) increased risk of undergoing conventional physical child abuse; and, upon reaching maturity, (7) increased adult aggression, (8) increased adult criminal and antisocial behavior, (9) decreased adult mental health, and (10) increased risk of abusing one’s own child or spouse.57 She has since theorized that, in light of some of the parallels between the parent-child and teacher-student relationship, these negative impacts may result from school corporal punishment as well.58

It does not require a degree in psychology to figure out that some of these outcomes will indispose children to learn optimally or even minimally. For example, an overly aggressive child or a child plagued by emotional instability is sure to be distracted by more pressing urges and needs than soaking up the school curricula. As a matter of fact, Professor Irwin Hyman, a psychologist who has extensively studied school corporal punishment, has concluded that corporal punishment does indeed interfere with students’ ability to do schoolwork.59
​

Again. Not long ago corporal punishment was the norm at all US schools. Have all the bad things referenced above increased or decreased since it became the exception?

Dr. Gershoff’s metaanalyses do reveal that corporal punishment is correlated with one arguably positive outcome: a smack will cause a child temporarily to cease his or her misconduct.60 Since cessation is fleeting, however, this outcome is hardly the type of advantage that would justify endangering children in the ways identified by Dr. Gershoff.

If discipline is applied consistently, the results will not be fleeting.

Moreover, there are more effective alternative disciplinary techniques for controlling children and instilling them with moral values. Schools have at their disposal an array of traditional non-corporal penalties that may be imposed such as expulsion, suspension, detention and parental pick-ups.61 Time-outs, deprivation of privileges, and explaining why misbehavior is unacceptable can readily be adapted to the school context.62 There are also programs especially suitable to employing school resources. These programs include providing character education curriculum, enlisting the assistance of school psychologists and counselors, giving student recognition awards for good behavior, and peer mediation.

You have proof that these methods are superior in each and every case? I note a correlation between the discontinuation of corporal punishment and the mass drugging of our young male students. Perhaps a few spankings might allow the teachers to control their classes without drugging their students?​

 

[Bells]

The beating required to discipline an adult would be so severe as to possibly result in permanent damage. Whereas a young child can be disciplined with a level of force that does no permanent damage and would hardly even be noticed by an adult. So there's really no comparison between adults and children on this issue.

I see. So the "beating" required to get an adult to tow the line would cause abuse, but the "beating" a child gets to tow the line is of such little consequence, that an adult wouldn't even notice it.. correct?

How interesting that we calculate pain to a child by how much pain it would cause an adult. We blithely ignore any mental strain or distress a "beating" might cause the child, because well, it wouldn't be enough to affect an adult.

Furthermore, very young children often lack the intellectual capacity to even understand other types of punishment.

So because they lack the "intellectual capacity", it is acceptable to 'beat' the them as punishment? Should we 'beat' the elderly with alzheimers and dementia for the same reason? What about the mentally disabled? You know, since they lack "intellectual capacity"..

And again 'that god damn fucking bitch just doesn't get that I need my dinner on time when I get home.. she's just fucking stupid.. so the "beating" I give the bitch every time dinner's not on the table is justified.. because you know? I just don't think she has the "intellectual capacity to even understand other types of punishment" '..

Give me a break. When I was in school we all faced the possibility of corporal punishment. No one was scarred. Not even one of my best friends who was a frequent recipient of said punishment

It scarred you enough that you now hit your mentally disabled son Madant, by your own admission and justify it because he has the mental capacity of a 5-6 year old at the moment. As much as I respect you Sir, I find that astounding.

But tell me Madant, would you let his teachers hit him with a wooden paddle? Would you delegate the punishment you think he needs to understand and think like you do to others? What about your other children when they reach the teenage years? Would you be happy if your daughter was made to bend over, grip onto a desk and have a school staff whack her on the backside a few times with a wooden paddle? Would you delegate it?

Again. Not long ago corporal punishment was the norm at all US schools. Have all the bad things referenced above increased or decreased since it became the exception?

And not long ago, we didn't see anything wrong with a husband hitting his wife because 'the bitch didn't get dinner on the table on time'. Nor did we have any issues with people getting behind the wheel of a car drunk. Nor did we bother with getting our children to wear seatbelts or *gasp* baby seats *gasp*. We also used to have the belief that the best way to get a "nigger" to obey or do what we want them to do is to give them a thrashing so the other "niggers" can see just what they'll get if they don't tow the line. That was the norm in the past and not that long ago, Madant.

Do you think the experts are wrong? Why so? What about all prominent organisations who are against corporal punishment in your own country? All wrong? Paediatricians? Bleh, wtf do they know? The Medical Association? "The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Elementary School Principals, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the National Association of Social Workers, the National Education Association, the National Mental Health Association, the National Association of School Nurses, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of State Boards of Education. Center for Effective Discipline"?

I mean, they are all wrong, right? Schools should be allowed to give our children a "beating" if our children if they misbehave, right?

If discipline is applied consistently, the results will not be fleeting.

So we don't just beat them once, we must beat them consistently!

I mean look at me. My "beatings" were applied consistently. Worked so well that even the thought of doing a simple mathematic equation has me feeling the sting of a ruler coming down with force across my back. You know what? You're right. The result is not fleeting.

You have proof that these methods are superior in each and every case? I note a correlation between the discontinuation of corporal punishment and the mass drugging of our young male students. Perhaps a few spankings might allow the teachers to control their classes without drugging their students?

Because God forbid parents and adults in general who are employed in the care of children, actually take the time to teach and educate children. Much better to give them a bit of a "beating" instead. Much faster.

 

[Neverfly]

You have just advised that violence against children is acceptable.

I have advised that in some instances it appears to be an effective method with some children.

I use those exact words because I could be wrong. Although it may be effective for some children, there may be unknown methods of reaching particularly stubborn children that is not known. If you know of any- please share.

Yes, lets do that Neverfly. Care to answer why you don't smack your own child but would happily delegate for school staff to paddle your son's behind?

Happily?
See, this is your problem Bells. This is NOT Clarification. This is NOT you seeking clarification.
Why did you use the word, "happily" except as a bitter sign of your own personal Bias?

In addition, you IGNORE all the discussion we have had about my son.

This is why debate with you is a futile and pointless effort.

You failed to grasp the basic gist of it.

What I sent you and have linked in this thread is why corporal punishment fails at law. It points out that prisoners have more rights against being hit than children do against being hit in schools by adults who are supposed to be there to protect them and shelter them from violence. It points out the demographics of those who have faced corporal punishment in US schools and points out that it is not just a racial divide, but also a sexual divide. It points out that in the past it was acceptable to beat a black person and we keep doing it today, so long as we work for a school and the person we are hitting is a child. It points out the hypocrisy of corporal punishment in schools.. places where children are sent to to learn and be protected from violence.. sometimes from violence in the home.. only to have staff be allowed to smack them when they deem it necessary.

Now see? THAT was a good rebuttal.

Far more convincing and effective than claiming that teachers are kid beating maniacs.
And far more so than making ad hom attacks on myself, my parenting or wording your "clarification" in ways that will clearly cause me to get angry.

You are correct. I had failed to grasp that side of it.
And you made a VERY GOOD argument, in that one paragraph, as to why, in spite of the success listed in the OP, that paddling should not be used in schools.
The case in the OP MAY be an isolated incident. One which, if allowed to carry on, or allowed in a broader range across the country, may produce more unfavorable results.

My hat is off to you for that paragraph.

Again, you fail to grasp the simple fact that those who faced corporal punishment as children while attending school also live with those mental scars for years, if not for life.

On this one, I disagree. Perhaps if a child is severely beaten by school personnel, they would have such scars. However, this statement is an assumption on your part.
The evidence shows clearly that the vast majority of kids who were raised with normal corporal punishment turn out normal as well.

In cases as you described as possibilities in the paragraph above, there may well be mentally scarred children resulting from atrocities, or abuse of a system.

For that reason alone, I would agree with you. Simply because there is not enough evidence that paddling is effective enough to allow even a few kids or hell, even ONE, to grow up scarred by school staff.

I suppose putting children at risk of these insalubrious outcomes might be warranted if the scientific evidence also disclosed some extraordinary advantage unique to physical punishment, or if there was
no other means of disciplining students.

This is most agreeable.

Nobody on either side of the spanking debate wants to deprive children of beneficial discipline or to turn schools into dens of iniquity or chaos. Dr. Gershoff’s metaanalyses do reveal that corporal punishment is correlated with one arguably positive outcome: a smack will cause a child temporarily to cease his or her misconduct.60 Since cessation is fleeting, however, this outcome is hardly the type of advantage that would justify endangering children in the ways identified by Dr. Gershoff.

Agreeable.

Moreover, there are more effective alternative disciplinary techniques for controlling children and instilling them with moral values.

Agreeable. It seems far better to TEACH a child WHY than to beat it into a child. One mistake you are ASSUMING is that people that agree with Corporal punishment, think it's the FIRST thing to do.
This is not the case.
They usually resort to that LAST. After they have tried everything else.
So, Please stop wording your arguments under the assumption that people resort to spanking/paddling right away. It is most normal the last resort when all else fails. It gets used when problem children seem to straighten up, even temporarily, after administration.

The question then is raised: What about those children that are unreachable? That which fail all techniques attempted?
Although the quoted section is not a statement by Bells, I am directing my question to Bells.

So their lack of ability to use a fully developed intellect and logic is the basis for using violence against them? I guess we can also start smacking people with dementia and alzheimers as well, since they also do not have or no longer have a fully developed intellect and logic. What about people who are mentally disabled? A few good whacks with a paddle should set them to right, eh Neverfly? Would that be acceptable for you?

No, it wouldn't.
The same goes with children.
What if the child is mentally unbalanced?

What I was referring to, however, is not dementia. Nor a few good whacks.
That particular response ebbed from the side debate about spanking... and what I was referring to was those younguns that need a slap on the wrist.

I got carried off into left field and that is My own fault.

I'm aware of this, however, and that I'll end up answering to it all... But that is part of why I had pointed out that the spanking issue really shouldn't be covered under this topic.

What you are saying is that instead of helping them to develop their intellect and logic, instead of teaching them to use their logic, we should simply smack them with a wooden paddle or delegate school staff to whack them with a paddle instead. Nothing like teaching logic than by whacking them a few times with a wooden paddle.

No.

I agree that all of that should be done.

The question raised, however, is what about those children that consistently refuse to learn logic?
These particular children, in a school environment, are disruptive to other students. If they appear to be getting away with more than they should, they can cause other students to become lax, as well.

What do you suggest is done with students of that nature?
Bear in mind, that question is OPEN. It is NOT based upon the assumption that a paddle is necessary.

You are saying that because children do not reason as well as you do (like you reason so well)

Your perception of me is based a great deal on your bias created by disagreement Bells, Again- Please stop the Ad Homs.

They are juvenile and not welcome in an adult debate.

Please, provide links that not smacking a child at school with a paddle will result in the child growing up to be "undisciplined", "self destructive, manipulative or" exhibit "otherwise harmful behavior".

I await your links with great anticipation.

I have none I can provide.

Googling such (and I'm not very good at choosing google keywords, I admit...) doesn't give a whole lot of studies into it.

What I have left is guesswork, based on observation of todays society.

That alone is insufficient.

At this time, I must do the ugly thing...
Again <sigh>

Your arguments are convincing, in spite of your rude demeanor and ad hom attacks.
As it stands now, I can agree that a School administering Corporal Punishment is out of bounds.

 

[Neverfly]

You know... It's funny.

I'm sitting here reading the irony in this last post.

In spite of your claims of "educating and nicely teaching is far more effective than Whacking kids" and "Kids and adults should have similar ablity in comprehension without whacking" type of arguments.

The hypocrisy, here Bells, is that you VERBALLY WHACK anyone that disagrees with you. You are verbally abusive.

Yet, the only way you were able to make a compelling argument I would listen to is if you stopped your verbal abuse long enough to QUOTE a reasonable argument from someone else and use that as your basis.

You could stand to learn a little something here yourself.

It's pretty hard to consider whether the side you've chosen to debate has any merit when you resort to slander and verbal abuse to get your point across.
In the end, it was the presentation of your claim, not you, that was most convincing. I am not thoroughly convinced, however. But reasonably so to agree that it is not a schools place.
YOU, only failed to demonstrate that which you advocate.
I find that fascinating.

 

[Kennyc]

...oops double post....

 

[Kennyc]

The real issue at the core of all this is children's respect for adults and established authority and laws (whether in schools or society at large).

Our schools are being vandalized by child thugs running rampant and the teachers and administrators powerless to control it due to restrictions.

The resumption of paddling as stated in the O.P. is one method of regaining control and getting the schools back to what they should be doing, teaching our children rather than running a combination babysitting-detention center.

Perhaps there are other ways, but it certainly doesn't seem the ones currently in place are working.

Rather than argue about this one incident let's look at the bigger picture and if you really want to change things (instead of just argue on the internet) then get involved with your school boards and legislatures and do something!

 

[Ophiolite]

So you specifically exclude the situation described in the OP?

The opening post describes a situation in which both appropriate and inappropriate discipline of the corporal and non-corporal kind may be applied. So I do not exclude, or include, the OP scenario - in short it is not a scenario, but a plenitude of scenarios.

Does your included situation have any provision for the perceptions of the whackee, as opposed to the self-perception of the whacker?

Don't get cute iceaura. It doesn't suit you. If the perceptions of the whackee were aligned with those of society s/he would not be in a position of requiring discipline. This true regardless of the nature of the discipline. To argue - as you implicilty do - that the discipline should be withheld because the subject of the discipline might misunderstand it, is a jsutification for doing nothing. You haven't thought this through. (Not like you at all.)

When you get to the point that you are mentoring the child by directing violence against him, you are exercising authority

I know you are smart enough to understand the difference between using authority and the role of authority figure as it applies in the context of this thread. For the casual lurkers who don't get it, the mentor role involves the us of authority that comes from knowledge and concern. The authority figure is abusing there authority, applying corporal punishment because they can, because they are frustrated, for many resaons, none of them good and none of them because they want to help the child.

Sure, there are people in that camp who do nothing but whine or say don't with no follow through. But there can be a inherent passivity in some who use CP.

Exactly what I am saying. Corporal punishment and non-corporal punishment can both be misapplied. Many of the objections to corporal punishment appear to me to be based on the visible evidence of its effect.

One of the dumbest things I was told as a child was 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me'. The pain of corporal punishment passes, the impact of inappropriate verbal disciplining can last a lifetime. (And before you respond 'so too can the shame of corporal punishment', I agree - if it is inappropriate.)

Well, look at the Swedes. ..... they are doing fairly well by most measures.

That would explain why they are in the top quartile globally for suicides and the higest homicide rate per capita in western Europe. If you want to confuse correlation with causation so will I.

My one issue with corporal punishment, especially that in schools, is that we are using violence to teach children that violence and bad behaviour is bad.

And right there is part, if not all, of the problem. You believe corporal punishment is violent. Here is an online definition of violence: Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing.

Now if corporal punishment is applied for any of these reasons then it is reprehensible, obnoxious and beyond the pale. That is not what it is for. It's just as well you haven't attempted to use it, because it is clear you are not suited to its use since you have such a warped grasp of its function and character.

I subscribe strongly to the view that we are apes and carry much of our apeness beneath our veneer of cultural sophistication. The ape in me understands a slap on the wrist - physical or metaphorcial, child or adult - and responds to it positively. The ape in me resents the violent attack - physical or verbal - insituted not to teach, but for revenge.

Good parenting uses the full range of methods available to contrain, guide, develop and encourage the child. Excluding a method that worked pretty damn well for five million years seems precipitate to me.

 

[Bells]

You know... It's funny.

I'm sitting here reading the irony in this last post.

In spite of your claims of "educating and nicely teaching is far more effective than Whacking kids" and "Kids and adults should have similar ablity in comprehension without whacking" type of arguments.

The hypocrisy, here Bells, is that you VERBALLY WHACK anyone that disagrees with you. You are verbally abusive.

Yet, the only way you were able to make a compelling argument I would listen to is if you stopped your verbal abuse long enough to QUOTE a reasonable argument from someone else and use that as your basis.

You could stand to learn a little something here yourself.

It's pretty hard to consider whether the side you've chosen to debate has any merit when you resort to slander and verbal abuse to get your point across.
In the end, it was the presentation of your claim, not you, that was most convincing. I am not thoroughly convinced, however. But reasonably so to agree that it is not a schools place.
YOU, only failed to demonstrate that which you advocate.
I find that fascinating.

Hey, at least I didn't call you a "bonehead".

I responded to you in the same manner that you have addressed me in this discussion. I tend to lose patience when someone refuses or is not willing to even do their own research or back up their claims. And does so repeatedly.

Do I verbally abuse people? Do you feel verbally abused Neverfly? Just because I can respond to you does not amount to verbal abuse.

 

[Neverfly]

Hey, at least I didn't call you a "bonehead".

I responded to you in the same manner that you have addressed me in this discussion. I tend to lose patience when someone refuses or is not willing to even do their own research or back up their claims. And does so repeatedly.

Do I verbally abuse people? Do you feel verbally abused Neverfly? Just because I can respond to you does not amount to verbal abuse.

Man... whatever. How long do you have to push me before I finally snap and return in kind?
Now you're trying to play it off as if you were getting even with me.

Bells, you've been a pain in my butt since I first joined. You've always been this way. If anything, you've lightened up a bit; not by much.

I'm not impressed by your rebuttal. It's quite apparent to any reader that, like Jack_, your claims are more fluff than substance in this regard. I will not pursue this as a side argument.
YES, I find you verbally abusive.
Agree or disagree with that. Think about whether it has merit and you MIGHT work on some self improvement and introspection or Not.
Choice is yours, I've said my bits and I'm disinterested in it becoming a new topic.

 

[GeoffP]

Actually, I hate the idea of schools spanking. Parents should do the disciplining. Cities should be able to issue fines and send the parents to jail for not disciplining their children. Hit them where it hurts: their pocket book. Watch children improve.

~String

The paddling gets turned over to the parents then.

I quite like the idea. We had the strap in my school back in the day, and I can say unequivocally that behaviour got worse when they officially repealed it. It's much like life in general: there needs to be a final arbitor of behaviour. Nothing new to that.

 

[Bells]

Man... whatever. How long do you have to push me before I finally snap and return in kind?
Now you're trying to play it off as if you were getting even with me.

Bells, you've been a pain in my butt since I first joined. You've always been this way. If anything, you've lightened up a bit; not by much.

I'm not impressed by your rebuttal. It's quite apparent to any reader that, like Jack_, your claims are more fluff than substance in this regard. I will not pursue this as a side argument.
YES, I find you verbally abusive.
Agree or disagree with that. Think about whether it has merit and you MIGHT work on some self improvement and introspection or Not.
Choice is yours, I've said my bits and I'm disinterested in it becoming a new topic.

And I will say again. You have failed to substantiate any of the claims you have made in this and other threads. I have and others have. I even sent you a link to read, which you completely did not get.

When challenged, you resort to crying abuse and misrepresentation, while completely and utterly disregarding the condescending and abusive tone of your own posts. In short, you are quite often rude, not to mention over emotional. You blame others when you cannot back up your claims.

I have been a pain in your butt? I'm sorry, but I speak to you like you are an adult. What I do not expect is over emotional hand wringing in return with the expectation of sympathy. Any time you are challenged it is the same thing. You don't like how I speak to you? Fine. Grow up and toughen up. Being naive as a child is endearing. Being that naive when one is a man of your age is inexcusable.

 

[Neverfly]

which you completely did not get.

Nor did you get that I won't go off on another little hissy fight with you. If other readers who follow along agree with your conclusion about myself, they are more than welcome to PM me and let me know that I have faults. I will consider the crowds viewpoint. I'm not unaware that a single person can be oblivious to their own misgivings. I gave you a piece for your own consideration.

In the meantime:
Get off my back.

 

[GeoffP]

Maybe you should paddle him.

 

[sifreak21]

bells your spinning everything every oppisition says to you.. if you want to have the same effect on an adult as spanking has on a child you would have to beat the piss out of them.. my mother and grand mother were hit with rulers and more in school.. as did i would say 99% of every user heres parents did. look at how bad and psychologically messed up they aLL are.. o wait.. now look at our parents grandparents generation. now look at this generation the kids and teens and what there doing you tell me what works and what doesnt its one of the most obvious things out there todays kids have 0 respect for athority and for there elders

 

[Neverfly]

bells your spinning everything every oppisition says to you.. if you want to have the same effect on an adult as spanking has on a child you would have to beat the piss out of them.. my mother and grand mother were hit with rulers and more in school.. as did i would say 99% of every user heres parents did. look at how bad and psychologically messed up they aLL are.. o wait.. now look at our parents grandparents generation. now look at this generation the kids and teens and what there doing you tell me what works and what doesnt its one of the most obvious things out there todays kids have 0 respect for athority and for there elders

I know this, you know this- we all know this.

Using my son as a guilt trip against me was something I could not endure.
I confess... I couldn't stand the thought of him in front of a paddle. :shrug:

 

[Bells]

Nor did you get that I won't go off on another little hissy fight with you.

Too late, precious. You already have. You did several pages ago now.

If other readers who follow along agree with your conclusion about myself, they are more than welcome to PM me and let me know that I have faults. I will consider the crowds viewpoint.

Do you think this is a popularity contest?

Best start sending emails to your friends for support for all of the abuse you have received from me. Good grief man, grow up!

I'm not unaware that a single person can be oblivious to their own misgivings. I gave you a piece for your own consideration.

Let me tell you something about myself Neverfly, which others here will confirm. I am not nice. I don't do nice. I am very blunt, to be exact.

When someone makes a claim, I expect them to be able to back it up. Telling me that you don't google well is not a response. I have provided you with countless of links. You provided only links that state the legality of corporal punishment in schools in the US, one of which states quite clearly that any school staff can smack a child at school.

Your own links failed to state the benefits of corporal punishment in schools. What it did show was a complete lack of control over the whole issue. If a school bus driver can smack a child and be immune from prosecution if he used reasonable care in smacking that child (ie, no bruising that lasts), it shows that control measures need to be implemented. You failed to get that. In Texas, your home state and for which you provided the legality of corporal punishment in schools via a link and then gloated about how much protection kids in Texas have, it states quite clearly that there is no protection. Anyone employed by the education department, from a school trustee, school nurse to a bus driver is protected by law if they smack your child. Again, you failed to get that.

In the meantime:
Get off my back.

Grow up.

Maybe you should paddle him.

If he were a child, I would apparently be legally able to. Alas he is an adult and would constitute assault.

 

[Mr MacGillivray]

If schools aren't allowed to paddle, is it still ok if the police clubs a suspect into submission? Or should the parents of the suspect discipline the suspect.