City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior
- Thread starter madanthonywayne
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If you advocate giving school officials the authority to cane your child on their judgment, you have to realize the situation you are creating.neverfly said:
You do not, unfortunately, have any control over these interpretations of terms. You are approving of a policy that gives formal permission to a wide range of school employees to hit children with wooden implements of their choice, for reasons of their judgment. I think "paddling" is a euphemism for what will be the frequent consequences of that permission, and "caning" is closer to being an accurate term.neverfly said:
Those statements, yours and mine, do not conflict. My argument only requires that my anecdotal part be accurate - which it is.neverfly said:
Children turn out fine raised in all kinds of ways - some of them. So there is no reason to choose a way that seems to produce a disproportionate number of adults who have not turned out fine. And in my experience with those who have not turned out fine, a history of having been "spanked" and "paddled" and the like in childhood is a notable and prominent feature.
Who ever said anything about "CANING?"
Stick to the facts.
You did not read the article or the thread, did you?
If you had, you would know that this statement is very inaccurate.
Inventing your own terminology does not support your claims.
If it is anecdotal, of COURSE you will claim it is accurate.
That does not mean it actually IS accurate. It only means that from your experience, you guess it Should be accurate.
These two statements completely contradict each other.
This, is anecdotal, and based upon the idea that SPANKING was used instead of Physically Abusive parents.
You do not know the difference so you lump it all into one group. Like caning- you think you can invent your own rules and base an argument off of it.
You can't. All you succeeded in doing was demonstrating your ignorance on the topic, your bias, your willingness to invent your own terminology and your inability to separate anecdote from evidence.
No.
And to the Best of My Knowledge, Tiassa is not from Temple, nor from Texas.
He's making up stereotypes and Bias based on his own (Almost racial) low opinion about people that live elsewhere.
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He doesn't word your posts for you.
See.. there you go leading me to be the bad one...
But that response to the other person was based upon YOUR Stereotypes.
Try to detract from it all you want... it won't change it.
Yeah.... You've been HOPING I'd finally respond to you so that you could accuse me of being a liar, haven't you?
Poor freakin' you
All bluster, no substance.
Finally? Well, let's see ... #82, 87, 103? For someone who doesn't want to deal with me, you have a penchant for inviting me to the dance.
Don't want to dance? Fine with me. And it's simple: leave me out of your arguments with other people. If you continue to escalate, making your invitations louder, you should probably expect that sooner or later the object of your obsession will do the courtesy of responding.
Neverfly said:
All bluster, no substance.
Finally? Well, let's see ... #82, 87, 103? For someone who doesn't want to deal with me, you have a penchant for inviting me to the dance.
Don't want to dance? Fine with me. And it's simple: leave me out of your arguments with other people. If you continue to escalate, making your invitations louder, you should probably expect that sooner or later the object of your obsession will do the courtesy of responding.
i hate the idea of having a stranger (in this case, a teacher) discipline my imaginary children by hitting them, it seems very inappropriate ...
... which is why I think we need robots to do it. something about a robot whooping my kid's ass rather than a teacher doing it makes me feel very relaxed about the whole process. the punishment should obviously vary by the wrongdoing committed ... for example, talking back to the teacher should result in four or five stiff mechanical slaps to that little prick's face. either that, or the principal can call me whilst im at work, at which point I drive down to the school on my break and hit him for a few minutes. i think this solution is one of the few that could actually work. what's the alternative? detention? guidance counselors? no, seriously, what the fuck is the alternative? what can be done which hasn't been attempted already and miserably failed?
it's interesting that we see so many mammals incorporate hitting into raising their young. this is because even animals know that kids are idiots and shouldn't be negotiated with, due to their small and undeveloped brains and thin, fragile skulls. seriously, who would negotiate and bargain with a species that said retarded things like "i want to be an astronaut/sumo wrestler when I grow up!" and "my dad can beat up your dad!". you wouldn't, plain and simple. bottom line, hitting kids for misbehaving (whether at home or at school) is a great and universal solution ... the only thing we should be debating is who does the actual whooping of the ass
... which is why I think we need robots to do it. something about a robot whooping my kid's ass rather than a teacher doing it makes me feel very relaxed about the whole process. the punishment should obviously vary by the wrongdoing committed ... for example, talking back to the teacher should result in four or five stiff mechanical slaps to that little prick's face. either that, or the principal can call me whilst im at work, at which point I drive down to the school on my break and hit him for a few minutes. i think this solution is one of the few that could actually work. what's the alternative? detention? guidance counselors? no, seriously, what the fuck is the alternative? what can be done which hasn't been attempted already and miserably failed?
it's interesting that we see so many mammals incorporate hitting into raising their young. this is because even animals know that kids are idiots and shouldn't be negotiated with, due to their small and undeveloped brains and thin, fragile skulls. seriously, who would negotiate and bargain with a species that said retarded things like "i want to be an astronaut/sumo wrestler when I grow up!" and "my dad can beat up your dad!". you wouldn't, plain and simple. bottom line, hitting kids for misbehaving (whether at home or at school) is a great and universal solution ... the only thing we should be debating is who does the actual whooping of the ass
Funnily enough, you can't really do anything you want with your computer. For example, it is against the law to use it to store child pornography.
My observation supports your stance, though. When a parent exists within society, they reap many benefits, both for themselves and the progeny. As a result, they need to cede some 'ownership' over their children. Ergo. They have to tow the line and obey society's laws regarding how they treat their children.
If they don't like that, then they can either lobby to change the law and public opinion, or leave society and raise their children however they like in the jungle. Sounds fair to me.
Bells
Staff member
And this is my biggest problem with the notion of teachers hitting students.
Can children be pricks? Sure? Does certain bad behaviour ever merit a whack? Maybe. I'm torn on the issue simply because I find an adult hitting a child in order to obtain coercion to be exactly the sort of behaviour we tell children is wrong, which stinks of hypocrisy.
Do I trust school administration to execute physical punishment in a fair and judicious manner? From my own experiences as a child, as well as what I have heard from previous generations, I can only say: No way.
What Bells described from her childhood isn't unusual. Indeed, she called her teacher a psycho for hitting children who made errors in their school work. This raised my eyebrows, since the impression I got from previous generations (including my mother) is that this was the *norm* (although Bells is younger than my mother, from what I understand). Individuals who are now in their fifties routinely tell me how lucky a lefty such as me was not raised in their generation, since I would have been beaten for having the audacity to write with my dominant hand. Dyslexics and stutters got it even worse. If you had any sort of learning ability, your ass would likely be black and blue.
Throughout my secondary schooling (when corporal punishment had already been outlawed for ages), I had some excellent teachers. However, I also had some teachers who were close to melt-down, and whose passion for the job had worn thin. One of these teachers blew up at the class on three separate occasions, and tore a students homework in half simply because they were close enough to vent their frustration on. And we weren't bad kids by any stretch of the imagination, this was a large country town where the idea of teen pregnancy was completely foreign and it was shocking for couples to hold hands. From memory we'd performed poorly on an assignment, because her expectations were way to high. She ended up taking leave, and everyone in our class agreed that she really needed it.
Would I trust such people with the right to hit a child? No way.
You mention that you'd take the word of an administrator over a child. My question is: Why? Was the administrator present? Did he observe what occurred? Or is he merely speculating, relying on second-hand witness testimony that was coerced from other students with threats of suspension (or if some people had their way, beatings?) Assuming your child is honest, then their recounting of events should be more accurate that third hand testimony from an administrator.
I mean, shit, we're talking about hitting another human being here. It's a serious thing, especially when you realise that hitting dogs, even in a corrective manner, is animal abuse. Slapping your wife even once is regarded by society as a huge sin. So what measures are we going to put in place to ensure that a child is only hit when a certain standard of proof is met? What happens if there is a dispute of the measure of guilt? Is a teacher, who may have their own biases and misconceptions, in such a position to make a call? Will they require the OK of a second teacher?
With detentions, it doesn't matter so much if you make the wrong call. A detention isn't a big deal. It's annoying and boring, but it's over in an hour and you try to avoid doing the same stupid mistake again. However, from just talking to those from previous generations, I can say that the pain and humilation of getting hit, especially over something petty, can last for life. They don't say that it bothers them, because they were brought up not to complain about such 'petty things', but they often bring it up, and in a certain tone, which suggests that it is an unpleasant memory that has stuck with them.
Deep in his mass of words, Tiassa bolded something in an article he cited which caught my attention. And that is, it will be the boys who overwhelmingly receive the beatings. Why is this? Maybe it's because society sees it as more acceptable to humiliate and beat boys when they act out. Maybe it's because certain segments of society encourage boys to exhibit behaviour which are then condemned by schooling. Maybe it's because boys just don't function as well in an organised, structure, rigid schooling system, and need a more flexible learning environment. Perhaps it's a little of both. Either way, the idea that a particular violent and humiliating punishment will be inflicted overwhelmingly on one gender strikes me as misandry. Which, as other posters can attest to, I really can't stand.
Since my own post is a bit longer than usual, in a nutshell:
I can't trust school administrators with the right to hit children for perceived misbehaviour, and I don't like the idea of allowing for a violent and humiliating punishment that one gender (ie. male children) will be disproportionately subjected to due to sexism.
Bells
Staff member
My God.
The Earth has stopped turning. I am actually agreeing with Mordea.
What can I say Mordea? Well written. No, scratch that. Brilliantly said.:worship:
I sent this link to Neverfly, because it reflects exactly what you have said. It discusses the constitutionality of corporal punishment in the US and its effects on not just gender (yes, research has found that it is mostly males who are face corporal punishment in schools), but also along racial lines, with blacks having the highest rates of corporal punishment in schools in the US. But most interestingly, was this:
The Earth has stopped turning. I am actually agreeing with Mordea.
What can I say Mordea? Well written. No, scratch that. Brilliantly said.:worship:
I sent this link to Neverfly, because it reflects exactly what you have said. It discusses the constitutionality of corporal punishment in the US and its effects on not just gender (yes, research has found that it is mostly males who are face corporal punishment in schools), but also along racial lines, with blacks having the highest rates of corporal punishment in schools in the US. But most interestingly, was this:
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
Adults can better understand a reasoned argument than a child.
Chimpanzees seem to get on quite well backhanding youngsters when they go against the norm of chimpanzzee behaviour.
On the other hand we don't learn nutcracking techniques from chimps, so should we learn our parenting skills there?
Chimpanzees seem to get on quite well backhanding youngsters when they go against the norm of chimpanzzee behaviour.
On the other hand we don't learn nutcracking techniques from chimps, so should we learn our parenting skills there?
How can you say that, given that you have been a member of sciforums for so many years!?
Thank you. To be honest, I suspect we agree on more than you might think. However, there are some people who love to make assumptions about what I believe, and the person I am, when I make some politically incorrect statements.
Yes, my same thoughts about misandry also apply to the racial aspect. Even if black pupils are more likely to 'act out', beating them for it strikes me as addressing the symptom rather than the cause (socioeconomic and cultural reasons). It's just a lazy bandaid non-solution to the actual problem. Furthemore, it's unfair, since children don't get to choose their cultural and socioeconomic status.
Yes. And the criminal got a trial by his peers.
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
You have made one of the most concise and cogent arguments I have seen in a very long time. Nothing need be added.How can you say that, given that you have been a member of sciforums for so many years!?
Bells
Staff member
I have asked, several times now, why it is assault to hit an adult with a paddle but not assault to hit a child with a paddle. Why is one sactioned and the other is not sanctioned. Neverfly has yet to respond. It has been dodged several times now.
The interesting thing about that paper is that she points out something very interesting. Prisoners are awared more rights and more protection then students in schools from any staff member at the school. She also points out the simple fact that school is meant to be a safe haven for students, especially for children who come from abusive households.
I have yet to see a single justification for hitting a child thus far in this thread. What I have seen is a grown adult woman boasting about her ability to "take down" a child in restraints.. and a grown man saying that he has never hit his child, said child is so good and well behaved, but if someone from the child's school or the babysitter called him to say that they wanted to hit him because he was not being so well behaved, he'd be fine with that.. and apparently said well behaved child won't be asked to give his side of the story first because well, he's just a kid a kids always lie apparently. I have seen people stating that hitting a child is the only way to stop that child from being a bully. The irony and the hypocrisy seems to escape them entirely.
I just don't get it. Why is violence of this type acceptable against children? How is it acceptable? No one has yet to be able to answer those questions.