Christianity as the message of love
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and you still have'nt, please provide reference material, if you make a claim " I watched a tv program does not surfice.darlas said:
again(reference material)the scriptures would help with that claim.darlas said:
we all came from the same soup, we are still evolving, it's just far to slow for you to see, you have a family tree, I presume.darlas said:
then you must have people in your family that you've never met, who are you far distent cousins, on another branch of you family tree, all going back to that one source, your great( ad infinitum)granddad. well evolution works exactly the same way.
apes are your cousins far far removed, we all started from one source, as I said we are all evolving all the time just to slow to see, the oldest fish that has'nt evolved in millions of years is the coelacanth, and thats possibly because it does not need to evolve, it functions perfectly well as it is.
animals show all those things, in some way. it all stems from adapting to our surroundings and working with our fellow animals.(evolution)darlas said:
pure BS, theres no substantial evidence that can hold water, it just halucinations.darlas said:
to continue, to survive, to propagate the species, to be the best you could ever be.darlas said:
humanitys words, historical facts.darlas said:
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Southstar,
What do you believe then? Do you have a post somewhere that summarizes what you believe?
Because of the Bible verse I gave you already. Jesus loves children.
Might I summarize my view here? People want sin but they don't want the consequences. Remember the sciforums post you contributed with horrid pictures of deformed, starving, diseased children. This is the consequence of a disease that all of us have -- I'm included. Sin is the disease. People want to blame God for it, but God did not bring sin into the world, man chose it. Man still chooses it. For someone to be a murderer, someone else must be a victim, for someone to be a thieve someone else must suffer the loss, for someone to be a rapist some one else must be violated -- these are direct results. But there are also indirect results too. As the bible says the same rain falls on the righteous as on the wicked.
Disease does not discriminate between young and old, rich and poor, innocent and guilty. I put the death of my father right in there with those terrible pictures. Death is an ugly sight. As I said before, and this is a bitter pill for me to swallow, I would rather die a small child with those awful diseases or even an unborn fetus, than to go through this life as an athiest with everything this world has to offer.
God holds those accountable to whom he gives much.
I suggest you read Luke Chapter 16 about the rich man and Lazurus to get this in perspective.
The picture doesn't do this one justice, actually the dogs fed off of Lazurus's sores. They were not friendly pups as the picture would indicate. The book of Job is another good reference.
What do you believe then? Do you have a post somewhere that summarizes what you believe?
Because of the Bible verse I gave you already. Jesus loves children.
Might I summarize my view here? People want sin but they don't want the consequences. Remember the sciforums post you contributed with horrid pictures of deformed, starving, diseased children. This is the consequence of a disease that all of us have -- I'm included. Sin is the disease. People want to blame God for it, but God did not bring sin into the world, man chose it. Man still chooses it. For someone to be a murderer, someone else must be a victim, for someone to be a thieve someone else must suffer the loss, for someone to be a rapist some one else must be violated -- these are direct results. But there are also indirect results too. As the bible says the same rain falls on the righteous as on the wicked.
Disease does not discriminate between young and old, rich and poor, innocent and guilty. I put the death of my father right in there with those terrible pictures. Death is an ugly sight. As I said before, and this is a bitter pill for me to swallow, I would rather die a small child with those awful diseases or even an unborn fetus, than to go through this life as an athiest with everything this world has to offer.
God holds those accountable to whom he gives much.
I suggest you read Luke Chapter 16 about the rich man and Lazurus to get this in perspective.
The picture doesn't do this one justice, actually the dogs fed off of Lazurus's sores. They were not friendly pups as the picture would indicate. The book of Job is another good reference.
only religious people sin. so the consequences are all theres.woody said:
can you also show us how man choose this so called sin, and how it had nothing to do with you god. and please dont say free will, because you religious lot dont have any,
no need for difinitions however
dictionary.com
Sin
1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
3. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
4, To violate a religious or moral law.
and wikipedia
Sin has always been a term most usually used in a religious context, and today describes any lack of conformity to the will of God; especially, any willful disregard for the norms revealed by God is a sin. The word is from the old English synn, presumed to be from Germanic *sun(d)jō[1] (http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE133.html) (lit: "it is true"). It is recorded in use as early as the 9th century. The most common formal definition is an offense against religious or moral law.
so as i said earlier only religous people sin, so the consequences are all theres.
still would like to know how man choose sin.
no you have'nt shown any information to show how man choose sin.
if your refering to a&e then your wrong no choice there, they were forced into it.
if I was your god and said you must goto new york and you could take any route you like, then I closed every route bar one, even going back, where is the choice.
remember before a&e ate of the fruit the were like babies, and your god was there father, they had no idea of right and wrong, did they.
so no choice in what they said or did.
dictionary.com
Sin
1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
3. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
4, To violate a religious or moral law.
and wikipedia
Sin has always been a term most usually used in a religious context, and today describes any lack of conformity to the will of God; especially, any willful disregard for the norms revealed by God is a sin. The word is from the old English synn, presumed to be from Germanic *sun(d)jō[1] (http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE133.html) (lit: "it is true"). It is recorded in use as early as the 9th century. The most common formal definition is an offense against religious or moral law.
so as i said earlier only religous people sin, so the consequences are all theres.
still would like to know how man choose sin.
no you have'nt shown any information to show how man choose sin.
if your refering to a&e then your wrong no choice there, they were forced into it.
if I was your god and said you must goto new york and you could take any route you like, then I closed every route bar one, even going back, where is the choice.
remember before a&e ate of the fruit the were like babies, and your god was there father, they had no idea of right and wrong, did they.
so no choice in what they said or did.
Audible,
The reason I asked you for a definition of sin is because definitions clears up miscommunications before they get started.
You pointed to the Adam and Eve episode in the bible, which I can explain, and I think it is a good place to start.
Adam and Eve were full grown adults, if that's what you mean (and I think you do mean that). They did not know the difference between good and evil, as you stated. They were given one commandment, "Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They could do anything else they wanted, including, they could also eat from the tree of eternal life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil had a consequence called death. Death didn't exist, so maybe they had trouble understanding what death was, but the warning was there never-the-less.
Eve was tricked into disobeying, but there was willfulness on her part. She thought she could be like God if she ate from the tree. Her motivation was pride. Adam fell for it too, because once Eve was hooked, she brought him the fruit and he ate it. He knew full-well that he was doing wrong, but he was weak for Eve, as most men are in times of temptation. The fruit was not sexual, it was just a plain fruit. The bible doesn't say whether it was an apple, a fig, or whatever, and this is probably because man would make some religion to forbid a perfectly good food from being consumed.
In the sad end of it all, man could have reigned on this earth with immortality, but he chose death over life, and he did it because he thought God wasn't sufficient. People are still doing it today -- what do you think will make your life better, more money? More money will not extend your life another day.
The reason I asked you for a definition of sin is because definitions clears up miscommunications before they get started.
You pointed to the Adam and Eve episode in the bible, which I can explain, and I think it is a good place to start.
Adam and Eve were full grown adults, if that's what you mean (and I think you do mean that). They did not know the difference between good and evil, as you stated. They were given one commandment, "Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They could do anything else they wanted, including, they could also eat from the tree of eternal life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil had a consequence called death. Death didn't exist, so maybe they had trouble understanding what death was, but the warning was there never-the-less.
Eve was tricked into disobeying, but there was willfulness on her part. She thought she could be like God if she ate from the tree. Her motivation was pride. Adam fell for it too, because once Eve was hooked, she brought him the fruit and he ate it. He knew full-well that he was doing wrong, but he was weak for Eve, as most men are in times of temptation. The fruit was not sexual, it was just a plain fruit. The bible doesn't say whether it was an apple, a fig, or whatever, and this is probably because man would make some religion to forbid a perfectly good food from being consumed.
In the sad end of it all, man could have reigned on this earth with immortality, but he chose death over life, and he did it because he thought God wasn't sufficient. People are still doing it today -- what do you think will make your life better, more money? More money will not extend your life another day.
whatever god said they did not understand what he meant, they were babies( adults but babies none the less)
I dont care about money, money is but a means to an end, that all it is.
humanity comes first in my book.
so can you still show me how man choose sin.
if she was tricked then she could not be held responsible for her action, she was coerced.woody said:
not possible as they had not ate of the fruit,woody said:
no he did'nt, she had been coerced, and he was in turn was coerced by her but, neither had a choice or even understood what they were doing was wrong, and they certainly should not be held responsible for it as they were coerced.woody said:
no they did'nt, they were forced into it, and found guilty for a crime that they quite clearly did not knowingly commit. ( a bit like sending a baby to the gallows, for a crime an adult did.)woody said:
I dont care about money, money is but a means to an end, that all it is.
humanity comes first in my book.
so can you still show me how man choose sin.
TheHeretic
Registered Senior Member
Darlas how the hell can you defend your beliefs when you dont even know the basis for the theory of evolution. So please dont even talk. All you christians who claim to be so sure that god created everthing You are so full of yourself. How can you discredit these theories that were composed by highly educated people. I'm sorry, how many of you here have a degree in physics or biology. SO please dont even attempt to disprove anything unless you have a great understanding of what your dissproving.
Audible,
Actually Adam was quite a smart man. With just one look at Eve, he knew what she was for. God did not have to tell him the birds and bees like the rest of us require. Adam also figured out marriage on his own though he'd never seen it, and that Eve would bear children though neither one of them had ever seen children. Pretty smart for a so called child mentality, eh? Also, Adam named all the animals in the world. His vocabulary must have been well developed. God created both Adam and Eve as a perfect man and woman -- they did not have the minds of children. The argument that A&E didn't know any better sounds like the Unification (Moonie) church's doctrine. They want to blame God for sin -- another discussion for another day.
Let's tackle the sin incidence in the Garden of Eden verse by verse, How do you read coercion into this? Eve was conned yes; coerced, no I don't think so.
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
This is the Genesis account. Eve knew that eating from the tree would result in death. But notice something subtil here, Eve overstepped the bounds of God's limitations by adding to them in verse 3. She said that God said she could not touch the fruit. This is where the problem begins, because God did not say this, and she has already lied. Lieing was not forbidden in the Edenic world as far as I know. There really was no need to lie, since everyone had what they wanted. But this is where the problem starts though it has not become sin yet.
Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die."
Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!
Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.
She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has.
-- and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat - SIN enterred the world. Notice that Adam did not stop Eve though he was right there with her.
If she wanted to be wise, why didn't she just go to God and ask him to give her wisdom? It worked for Solomon.
Actually Adam was quite a smart man. With just one look at Eve, he knew what she was for. God did not have to tell him the birds and bees like the rest of us require. Adam also figured out marriage on his own though he'd never seen it, and that Eve would bear children though neither one of them had ever seen children. Pretty smart for a so called child mentality, eh? Also, Adam named all the animals in the world. His vocabulary must have been well developed. God created both Adam and Eve as a perfect man and woman -- they did not have the minds of children. The argument that A&E didn't know any better sounds like the Unification (Moonie) church's doctrine. They want to blame God for sin -- another discussion for another day.
Let's tackle the sin incidence in the Garden of Eden verse by verse, How do you read coercion into this? Eve was conned yes; coerced, no I don't think so.
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
This is the Genesis account. Eve knew that eating from the tree would result in death. But notice something subtil here, Eve overstepped the bounds of God's limitations by adding to them in verse 3. She said that God said she could not touch the fruit. This is where the problem begins, because God did not say this, and she has already lied. Lieing was not forbidden in the Edenic world as far as I know. There really was no need to lie, since everyone had what they wanted. But this is where the problem starts though it has not become sin yet.
Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die."
Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!
Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.
She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has.
-- and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat - SIN enterred the world. Notice that Adam did not stop Eve though he was right there with her.
If she wanted to be wise, why didn't she just go to God and ask him to give her wisdom? It worked for Solomon.
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Actually Adam was quite a smart man. [/quote]please dont insult my intelligence, he was but a baby, a smart baby maybe, but a baby innocent.
Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die.
Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!
Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.
She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has. )
we humans dont need to konw the bs&bs we are animals, nobody teaches a fox what a vixen is, nobody teaches a lion what a lioness is , dont be stupid, it's not called intelligence, but instinct. ( basic animal instinct to propergate the species) so the next part of you statement has been thrown out... trash canned next section (Adam also figured out marriage on his own though he'd never seen it, and that Eve would bear children though neither one of them had ever seen children. Pretty smart for a so called child mentality, eh?)Woody said:
so!, I name my pets.Woody said:
why!, why would he need a voice, god could read is mind, animals comunicate without words.Woody said:
and who did this god compare them with to make them the perfect man(in his own image, which is a young man) and woman (so where did the womans image come form)as for there minds, if they new nothing of right and wrong before they ate of the tree, then they were equal to babies innocent, please try to think about it.Woody said:
coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation, compel.( compel: To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway) this is why, they were coerced.woody said:
where?, I see no such statement.( But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.)so the next part of you statement has been thrown out... trash canned next section (This is where the problem begins, because God did not say this, and she has already lied, Lieing was not forbidden in the Edenic world as far as I know. There really was no need to lie, since everyone had what they wanted. But this is where the problem starts though it has not become sin yet.woody said:
Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die.
Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!
Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.
She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has. )
adam did not stop her as he had not eaten of the fruit, and thus did not have any idea what right or wrong was, and would not know she was doing wrong, and neither did she until she atewoody said:
Audible,
OK, you think that Adam and Eve were a couple of kids. We'll get to that.
But consider what God did say according to Genesis 2:
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There is nothing in here about "touching the fruit." Adam was supposed to dress and keep the garden, so he probably picked up old fruit and threw it out of the garden (hence he touched it). Observe that Adam didn't ask any questions after God told him what he could and could not do. I have an eight year old daughter, and she will pester you to death with questions. Likewise I did the same when I was a kid. Questioning is a natural thing that children do. It looks like Adam understood very well what God told him, and there was no negligence on God's part, since he can read Adam's mind. Note also that Eve was not present when God told Adam what to do.
Now we'll tackle the mentality question in Genesis 2:
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
You have a pet, so do I, but what a job Adam was given!
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Adult animals have reproductive instincts as you mentioned, but they aren't thinking in terms of children and a wife. This separates man from the animal kingdom.
Do you really think animals understand the B&Bs. Make an intelligence comparison: the chimpanzee (considered the smartest ape) has a mentality equivalent to a 5 year old child. How many five year old children understand the facts of life? Come on, guy.
My eight year old daughter is sitting here with me, and I asked her if she understands the facts of life. She says she does not. When I was about her age, my father explained the facts of life to me, and neither did I really understand them, even after some explanation of anatomy.
In your opinion, when did Adam finally have the mind of an adult?
Could you confirm your view of Adam's maturity with a child behavioral specialist?
So many people want to blame God for sin, because they think it gets them off the hook.
OK, you think that Adam and Eve were a couple of kids. We'll get to that.
But consider what God did say according to Genesis 2:
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There is nothing in here about "touching the fruit." Adam was supposed to dress and keep the garden, so he probably picked up old fruit and threw it out of the garden (hence he touched it). Observe that Adam didn't ask any questions after God told him what he could and could not do. I have an eight year old daughter, and she will pester you to death with questions. Likewise I did the same when I was a kid. Questioning is a natural thing that children do. It looks like Adam understood very well what God told him, and there was no negligence on God's part, since he can read Adam's mind. Note also that Eve was not present when God told Adam what to do.
Now we'll tackle the mentality question in Genesis 2:
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
You have a pet, so do I, but what a job Adam was given!
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Adult animals have reproductive instincts as you mentioned, but they aren't thinking in terms of children and a wife. This separates man from the animal kingdom.
Do you really think animals understand the B&Bs. Make an intelligence comparison: the chimpanzee (considered the smartest ape) has a mentality equivalent to a 5 year old child. How many five year old children understand the facts of life? Come on, guy.
My eight year old daughter is sitting here with me, and I asked her if she understands the facts of life. She says she does not. When I was about her age, my father explained the facts of life to me, and neither did I really understand them, even after some explanation of anatomy.
In your opinion, when did Adam finally have the mind of an adult?
Could you confirm your view of Adam's maturity with a child behavioral specialist?
So many people want to blame God for sin, because they think it gets them off the hook.
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why do you keep trying to convince me, given I'm using your bible as referance, I can only conclude from genesis, that adam and eve were forced to eat of the tree.(( be it from a serpent or a god) either way they cannot be held responsible)Woody said:
of course not, he had no understanding of right or wrong.( just a innocent babe)woody said:
yes just like a baby wouldwoody said:
of couse there was he could of worded it better( as you wouldwoody said:
a small child, or at least took the serpent out of the garden)
just like a small child would do, teddy, golly, dolly, not really a hard task kids do it all the time, until they get taught otherwisewoody said:
what relevance naming things has to do with is mental age, is beyond me.woody said:
he had no knowledge of a father and a mother, he was born of dust.woody said:
yes come on guy think why do we still have chimps.woody said:
and man is still an animal, with animal instincts
after he ate of the fruit,woody said:
and dont blame god as I have no believe in a god/gods devil or demons, but according to the bible god or the serpent are guilty of putting sin into the world, not man
Hello Audible,
Yes, indeed,we agree. Adam had insight, since he made this statement.
So how did Adam say this, was it "Goo Goo, Gah Gah, Mummy, Daddie, Boo boo."
The bible says:
Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
If the bible is a direct quotation of Adam, I would say he is more articulate than half the people on this forum. Does the above quotation sound like something a child would say?
You left out one of my best quotes in your rebuttal.
Based on the Genesis account, and the discourse, what was the mental age of Adam before he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?
Was he mentally the equivalent of a five year old, ten year old, what age?
I see no difference between the maturity level before and after. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not called the tree of wisdom and maturity.
Yes, indeed,we agree. Adam had insight, since he made this statement.
So how did Adam say this, was it "Goo Goo, Gah Gah, Mummy, Daddie, Boo boo."
The bible says:
Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
If the bible is a direct quotation of Adam, I would say he is more articulate than half the people on this forum. Does the above quotation sound like something a child would say?
You left out one of my best quotes in your rebuttal.
Based on the Genesis account, and the discourse, what was the mental age of Adam before he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?
Was he mentally the equivalent of a five year old, ten year old, what age?
I see no difference between the maturity level before and after. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not called the tree of wisdom and maturity.
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The difference is the tree of wisdom does not bring death. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil brings death.
The tree of wisdom is a good tree.
Soloman asked for wisdom and God gave it to him, God did not forbid it:
10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?
11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honor, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
Apparently Adam & Eve didn't get what Soloman received, instead they were duped. Soloman was a very wise man. Besides writing the proverbs, he is credited as being the wisest man in his day if not the wisest man that ever lived. I know you will have a rebuttal, but have you ever read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs? The man understood human nature very well.
Here is just one example:
Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living
Southstar,
Let's assume you are the king. You have supreme authority in all matters including executions. How would you decide this case? There is no DNA testing, etc., this event occured thousands of years ago.
Please don't cheat by looking up the answer. Ponder it and try to match wits with Soloman who received the true gift of wisdom. Perhaps you already know the answer from reading the bible. If so, wouldn't you admit Soloman was a pretty smart man? He didn't get it from the knowledge of good and evil which he already had, and the rest of us already have.
The tree of wisdom is a good tree.
Soloman asked for wisdom and God gave it to him, God did not forbid it:
10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?
11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honor, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
Apparently Adam & Eve didn't get what Soloman received, instead they were duped. Soloman was a very wise man. Besides writing the proverbs, he is credited as being the wisest man in his day if not the wisest man that ever lived. I know you will have a rebuttal, but have you ever read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs? The man understood human nature very well.
Here is just one example:
Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living
Southstar,
Let's assume you are the king. You have supreme authority in all matters including executions. How would you decide this case? There is no DNA testing, etc., this event occured thousands of years ago.
Please don't cheat by looking up the answer. Ponder it and try to match wits with Soloman who received the true gift of wisdom. Perhaps you already know the answer from reading the bible. If so, wouldn't you admit Soloman was a pretty smart man? He didn't get it from the knowledge of good and evil which he already had, and the rest of us already have.
audible, addressed to woody: why do you keep trying to convince me, given I'm using your bible as referance, I can only conclude from genesis, that adam and eve were forced to eat of the tree.(( be it from a serpent or a god) either way they cannot be held responsible) of course not, he had no understanding of right or wrong.( just a innocent babe) yes just like a baby would of couse there was he could of worded it better( as you would a small child, or at least took the serpent out of the garden)
just like a small child would do, teddy, golly, dolly, not really a hard task kids do it all the time, until they get taught otherwise
what relevance naming things has to do with is mental age, is beyond me. he had no knowledge of a father and a mother, he was born of dust. yes come on guy think why do we still have chimps.
and man is still an animal, with animal instincts after he ate of the fruit, and dont blame god as I have no believe in a god/gods devil or demons, but according to the bible god or the serpent are guilty of putting sin into the world, not man
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M*W: Good post. I neither believe in gods. I have always been a defender of the Serpent, because of her wisdom-giving abilities to humankind. That brings me to the question of who, then, was the Temptor/Temptress of Eden (and the world). Was it the Serpent or was it the god/s (Elohim) of Eden? Of course, I don't believe in the fictional story characters of A&E. They are just representative of the earth and wisdom, I think.
just like a small child would do, teddy, golly, dolly, not really a hard task kids do it all the time, until they get taught otherwise
what relevance naming things has to do with is mental age, is beyond me. he had no knowledge of a father and a mother, he was born of dust. yes come on guy think why do we still have chimps.
and man is still an animal, with animal instincts after he ate of the fruit, and dont blame god as I have no believe in a god/gods devil or demons, but according to the bible god or the serpent are guilty of putting sin into the world, not man
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M*W: Good post. I neither believe in gods. I have always been a defender of the Serpent, because of her wisdom-giving abilities to humankind. That brings me to the question of who, then, was the Temptor/Temptress of Eden (and the world). Was it the Serpent or was it the god/s (Elohim) of Eden? Of course, I don't believe in the fictional story characters of A&E. They are just representative of the earth and wisdom, I think.
Southstar, Heretic, Audible, anyone,
Again I ask what age level of mentality would make this statement, never having seen marriage, a family, or children before:
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Southstar, may I see your web link that explains your belief system, so I might understand better how to address you? I will be fair and give you my viewpoint: I am a fundamentalist Christian.
Again I ask what age level of mentality would make this statement, never having seen marriage, a family, or children before:
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Southstar, may I see your web link that explains your belief system, so I might understand better how to address you? I will be fair and give you my viewpoint: I am a fundamentalist Christian.
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Woody: The difference is the tree of wisdom does not bring death. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil brings death. The tree of wisdom is a good tree.
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M*W: I'll address one comment at a time. The "tree of wisdom does not bring death." Why would a loving creator create humans and tempt them with a tree? And, from whence did this 'wisdom' come? It did not come from the 'jealous god/s' of elohim. The wisdom came from the Serpent. The Serpent did not lie to A&E. But, they were not real people with identies. They were symbolic figures of the POST-NOAHIDE flood of the creation story. Further, why would god/s create anything but good trees? This makes no sense at all. In fact, the whole story of A&E is allegorical.
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Woody: Soloman asked for wisdom and God gave it to him, God did not forbid it:
10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?
11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honor, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
Apparently Adam & Eve didn't get what Soloman received, instead they were duped. Soloman was a very wise man. Besides writing the proverbs, he is credited as being the wisest man in his day if not the wisest man that ever lived. I know you will have a rebuttal, but have you ever read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs? The man understood human nature very well.
Here is just one example:
Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living
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M*W: Whoa.....! This is just another allegorical story! Solomon was a figurative character who was said to have been the wisest guy of his day. The 'name" Solomon means 'Sol' - of - Man', 'Sol' being the name of the 'sun.' Hence, the term evolved into 'Son of Man.' Total fabrication.
Further, when did the 'harlots' of the day have the status to own handmaidens? The word 'harlot' in the KJV OT refers to selling oneself as in treason. Technically, 'harlot' means one who is sated by a full meal. In other words, one gave herself OR himself (yes, a male can be a harlot) to the indulgence of the feast or the indulgence of the 'harlot' church as in the sacrament of reconciliation and penance. In Revelations, the mention of a 'harlot' refers to the early catholic church before the great schism -- in other words, Pauline Christianity. Why don't you reread Revelations with this in mind, and I'm sure it will all become clear to you!
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Woody to Southstar: Let's assume you are the king. You have supreme authority in all matters including executions. How would you decide this case? There is no DNA testing, etc., this event occured thousands of years ago.
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M*W: Again, it was NOT a real event, just a fairy tale.
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Woody: Please don't cheat by looking up the answer. Ponder it and try to match wits with Soloman who received the true gift of wisdom. Perhaps you already know the answer from reading the bible. If so, wouldn't you admit Soloman was a pretty smart man? He didn't get it from the knowledge of good and evil which he already had, and the rest of us already have.
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M*W: There is NO ANSWER to look up! I'm sure SouthStar knows that. Solomon was another name for 'sun worship'. I don't even want to waste my time going into how early humans feared and awed the sun, moon, stars, elements, etc., so they believed their higher power to be the sun. Then, later humans believed they could worship the sun, moons, stars, elements, etc., to gain safety or even favors for their worship. This is the only "god" that ever was or ever will be. Humanity has matured and has become more sophisticated since that time. I'm sorry you missed the boat.
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M*W: I'll address one comment at a time. The "tree of wisdom does not bring death." Why would a loving creator create humans and tempt them with a tree? And, from whence did this 'wisdom' come? It did not come from the 'jealous god/s' of elohim. The wisdom came from the Serpent. The Serpent did not lie to A&E. But, they were not real people with identies. They were symbolic figures of the POST-NOAHIDE flood of the creation story. Further, why would god/s create anything but good trees? This makes no sense at all. In fact, the whole story of A&E is allegorical.
*************
Woody: Soloman asked for wisdom and God gave it to him, God did not forbid it:
10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?
11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honor, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
Apparently Adam & Eve didn't get what Soloman received, instead they were duped. Soloman was a very wise man. Besides writing the proverbs, he is credited as being the wisest man in his day if not the wisest man that ever lived. I know you will have a rebuttal, but have you ever read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs? The man understood human nature very well.
Here is just one example:
Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living
*************
M*W: Whoa.....! This is just another allegorical story! Solomon was a figurative character who was said to have been the wisest guy of his day. The 'name" Solomon means 'Sol' - of - Man', 'Sol' being the name of the 'sun.' Hence, the term evolved into 'Son of Man.' Total fabrication.
Further, when did the 'harlots' of the day have the status to own handmaidens? The word 'harlot' in the KJV OT refers to selling oneself as in treason. Technically, 'harlot' means one who is sated by a full meal. In other words, one gave herself OR himself (yes, a male can be a harlot) to the indulgence of the feast or the indulgence of the 'harlot' church as in the sacrament of reconciliation and penance. In Revelations, the mention of a 'harlot' refers to the early catholic church before the great schism -- in other words, Pauline Christianity. Why don't you reread Revelations with this in mind, and I'm sure it will all become clear to you!
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Woody to Southstar: Let's assume you are the king. You have supreme authority in all matters including executions. How would you decide this case? There is no DNA testing, etc., this event occured thousands of years ago.
*************
M*W: Again, it was NOT a real event, just a fairy tale.
*************
Woody: Please don't cheat by looking up the answer. Ponder it and try to match wits with Soloman who received the true gift of wisdom. Perhaps you already know the answer from reading the bible. If so, wouldn't you admit Soloman was a pretty smart man? He didn't get it from the knowledge of good and evil which he already had, and the rest of us already have.
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M*W: There is NO ANSWER to look up! I'm sure SouthStar knows that. Solomon was another name for 'sun worship'. I don't even want to waste my time going into how early humans feared and awed the sun, moon, stars, elements, etc., so they believed their higher power to be the sun. Then, later humans believed they could worship the sun, moons, stars, elements, etc., to gain safety or even favors for their worship. This is the only "god" that ever was or ever will be. Humanity has matured and has become more sophisticated since that time. I'm sorry you missed the boat.