Christianity as the message of love

hello woody
woody said:
Could you confirm your view of Adam's maturity with a child behavioural specialist?
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oh yes most definitly

woody said:
Was he mentally the equivalent of a five year old, ten year old, what age?
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regardless of how articulate he was, as he was surposedly the first man, and had no knowledge of good and evil( and please try to think what the would be like, to not know good and evil to you it did not exist, you did'nt know what a bad thing was or what a good thing was.) so I would say he was mentally between two - four years.

which brings me neatly to accountabity.

Accountability=freedom of choice which in turn = 1, Alternatives, 2, Knowledge, 3, no Coercion.

Alternatives: The person must have a real alternative.
Free choice is always a choice between real alternates. The individual must be free to select from two or more viable options. Alternatives that are merely theoretical, or would only be possibilities in different circumstances, are not real options at all.

Knowledge: The person must understand the information relevant to the choice.Free choice always includes adequate information. The individual must know certain things that pertain to the decision at hand. Misinformation or lack of information disables free choice. The fact that knowledge is a prerequisite of accountability is taught in the Bible.
Anyone . . . who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. (James 4:17)
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 22:34)

no Coercion: The person must not be coerced.
Free choice is negated by coercion. Imagine a situation in which someone is holding a gun to your daughter's back and intends to kill her unless you do as you are told. Such coercion overrides your freedom and imposes someone else's will on you. For adults, it may take a rather drastic situation to qualify as coercion. But a young child can be coerced (manipulated) much more easily than an adult. A young child still confuses fantasy and reality. Also, he lacks the ability to reason, analyze a situation, weigh alternatives, and predict outcomes. Also, he has many psychological needs and is therefore quite vulnerable to many forms of manipulation. Thus, the child can be manipulated even by a loving parent who is unaware of how much power he has over a child's thoughts and actions.

addendum: this child (adam)had no prior knowledge of good or bad, therefore was more than just child like.

therefore we can conclude that adam and eve, were but pawns in the garden of eden, and not guilty of bringing sin into the world, as they were not accountable ....
 
Audible,

So in your opinion, The God of the bible didn't know what he was doing when he commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest he should die. Why did the God that created Adam even bother to tell him he had a choice? He gave Soloman smarts, yet you don't think he gave Adam enough sense to get out of the rain (a 4 year old mentality).

Most 6 year old children have knowledge of good and evil. Do any of them speak as Adam?

Knowledge of good and evil isn't much knowledge at all.

Nobody pointed a gun at Eve and told her to eat the fruit.

I suppose this rational could be used to let any criminal off the hook: Thus-and-so was a victim of his environment, that's why he was a serial killer, it's not his fault. So-and-so is chemically challenged -- don't call him a drunkard or a drug addict. Nobody is held accountable. There is no accountability. It was all God's fault, right? :eek:

I think I see the pattern emerging here:

When Cain killed his brother Able, that was God's fault too, right?
 
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I got a poem for ya Audible:

'Dis here's the story of Adam & Eve
Ate fruit from the forbidden tree.

Eve took a bite 'cuz she weren't too bright
And Adam went along though he knew it weren't right.

They both wuz embarrassed when they came to their senses
Made themselves dresses and thought up their defenses

God came along and nary twas about
He said where's Adam? with a rumblin shout

Adam trembled as he wet on himself
"I am afraid" he said, "and I hid myself"

God said Adam "did you eat from the tree?"
Adam said I'm not to blame it's the woman you gave me

The woman blamed the snake, for the big mistake
The snake just slithered like any other snake.

The moral of the story ain't bad luck
It's just a thing we call "passin the buck"
 
Woody said:
Audible,

So in your opinion, The God of the bible didn't know what he was doing when he commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest he should die. Why did the God that created Adam even bother to tell him he had a choice? He gave Soloman smarts, yet you don't think he gave Adam enough sense to get out of the rain (a 4 year old mentality).
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you still dont seem to have grasped it. I dont believe in a god, the point is before they ate of the tree they had no knowledge
of good and evil. solomon does not even come in to it as this is after the event.( it's before the event you should be concentrating on)
woody said:
Most 6 year old children have knowledge of good and evil. Do any of them speak as Adam?
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honestly yes, some better, but he is/was likened to a 2 -4 year old.
woody said:
Knowledge of good and evil isn't much knowledge at all.
Nobody pointed a gun at Eve and told her to eat the fruit.
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no but she was coerced, as she to was likened to a 2-4 year old child( not adult, only in form)
woody said:
I suppose this rational could be used to let any criminal off the hook:
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if that criminal was a child and was coerced, or was an adult with the mind of a child, like one with downs syndrome perhaps, they cannot be accountable.
woody said:
It was all God's fault, right? :eek:
I think I see the pattern emerging here:
When Cain killed his brother Able, that was God's fault too, right?
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no you quite clearly dont, would you put your daughter on trial for a murder that she was forced to commit, because she was told it was the right thing to do.
no of course not and your daughters an eight year old. would you put a down syndrome person on trial for a simular thing if they thought it was right.

oh and woody heres a little poem for you
and I sorry girls it's only fun.


First the Lord made man in the Garden of Eden.
Then he said to himself, "There's something he's needing.'"
After casting about for a suitable pearl,
He kept messing around and created a girl.
Two beautiful legs, so long and so slender,
Round, slim, and firm, and ever so tender.
Two lovely hips to increase his desire,
And rounded and firm to bring out the fire.
Two lovely breasts, so full and so proud,
Commanding his eyes, as he whispers aloud.
Two lovely arms, just aching to bless you,
And two loving hands, to soothe and caress you.
Soft, cascading hair hung down over her shoulder,
And two dreamy eyes, just to make him grow bolder.
'Twas made for a man, just to make his heart sing.
Then he added a mouth.
Ruined the whole damn thing.
 
Audible said,

Then he added a mouth.
Ruined the whole damn thing.
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And we never hear the end of it! :D LOL

Pretty good poem Audible.

On another subject,

What do you think about Cain killing his brother Abel?
 
woody said:
What do you think about Cain killing his brother Abel?
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deplorable: jealousy, is a irrational emotion, as is anger, hatred, or an negative emotion.
unfortunately we humans fall foul of them on occasion, but hopefully not to the point of murder.(which does happen sadly)
getting back to cain and abel: there was no rational reason for cain to kill abel, what did he think he would gain!, did he think nobody would notice!, ( yes he did, because he was possessed by irrational emotions) if we could iradicate the irrational would'nt it be wonderful.

snakelord said:
god doesn't like fruit.
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your dead right there, all those poor sacrificial lambs.
 
And they fought and they fought, and they argued and they argued.
And it is nowhere that they have come to.

For love, oh love -- that is an abstract, a something to be earned, to be won, they said.
 
Water,

You forgot one: love is blind too.

Why do you think a woman was made so dumb? Answer: So she could love a man. ;)

James 1:13-15

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Eve takes a bite from the forbidden fruit and death enters the world.
 
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Eve is coerced into taking a bite from the forbidden fruit and god or the serpent cause death to enter the world.

you still have'nt got it have you woody.
well never mind, one day maybe.
 
Audible,

Eve is coerced into taking a bite from the forbidden fruit and god or the serpent cause death to enter the world.

you still have'nt got it have you woody.
well never mind, one day maybe.
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I've heard a lot of snakes "speak" and they all say "hiss-hiss-hiss." Eve says different.

God says He does not tempt and he can not be tempted. God made snakes too.

He blames Adam for the transgression according to the New Testament.

Therefore I conclude, whatever went on before the transgression was a different modus vivendi than we have today, and we can't speak for Adam and Eve because they lived in a different world than what we have now.

But God does hold Adam accountable for what happened, according to the Bible, and there is no question about that, according to the Bible. I do understand that. :D
 
Darlas,
Every animal is continually evolving. The animals that were our ancestors evolved into other things, but sometimes a near relative still exists. The specific species of lobed-finned fishes that might have been our ancestor doesn't exist anymore, but that family has a modern representative in the Coelacanth. Our ape-like ancestor, besides evolving into us, also branched off into the Chimps and Bonobos.
 
Well, let's look at the biblical realities:

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good or evil before eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. While this would in no way prevent Adam from being able to name all of the animals in the garden, (yes, even T-Rex), it wouldn't enable him to be able to distinguish a difference between good and evil.

What it comes down to is that Adam and Eve at that time would have had no moral center at all. Adam could have happily beaten Eve to death and not so much as blinked, or worse- he could have become an atheist.. :bugeye: and it wouldn't have meant anything to him.

Then a snake speaks to them. At this stage Adam and Eve still have no knowledge of good or evil, and as a result do not have the ability to figure out who they should listen to, god or the snake, (if either). At this stage of the game god and the snake are equals, and any choice made on the part of Adam or Eve would be purely luck based.

Once they ate the fruit it's "oops, now I understand", but by then the damage has been done, and by no fault of their own.

This is fully supported by the bible, and any "but they did have some knowledge of good and evil", or "but all they had to do was listen to god", are meaningless and worthless excuses - completely unsupported by the texts, and nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

It was a loaded dice. Trying to make excuses for it is a complete waste of time and brain.

Now we move onto Cain and Abel..

While Cain murdered Abel, and would therefore do the time for the crime, it is still of great interest to those in the field of crime solving, to understand the motives that led to it.

Simply put, god played favourites - over something as petty as gifts. Cain did nothing wrong, but offered his produce, (fruit). Abel who happened to deal with livestock offered dead animals, and we can clearly see god's preference to dead meat instead of fruit. Of course, we see no mention of god telling Cain that it's a waste of time for him to pick potatoes, but instead kill cows. The entire affair could have been avoided if god had have just said "thank you", instead of being a self centered, unfeeling asshole.

This again is fully supported by the biblical texts. If you read it you'll see that Cain hadn't actually done anything wrong at all, but god decided to have a go at him over nothing. Some humans don't like being rejected, and even more so if that rejection were to come from god. While Abel didn't deserve to get killed, it's probably true in stating Cain couldn't reach high enough to kill god who was hiding in the clouds.

Can any of the religious members debate this to any credible degree? And no Woody, saying "snake's say hiss hiss hiss", isn't a debate.
 
Audible,

Here is Billy Graham's explanation:

"My Answer", 1970s. By Billy Graham. "Q. I have difficulty understanding the story of Adam and Eve. What was so wrong about eating the fruit of the tree in the Garden of Eden?"

"A. The Bible teaches that Adam and Eve were created to worship and serve God. However, they also had complete free will, and they chose to turn their backs on God by disobeying Him. The action of Adam and Eve was wrong simply because God had forbidden the eating of the fruit of 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). They had the choice of either obeying God or disobeying Him. The tree itself had no magical properties, but if they chose to eat of it they would be committing sin for the first time. They would therefore know what evil was in their experience.

I think it is important to see that if God had not given Adam and Eve the choice between good and evil they would have been like puppets because they could have done only what God wanted them to do. But God did not want puppets to love Him - He wanted humans who would freely respond to His love.

Because of the sin of Adam and Eve the whole human race has become alienated from God. But God does not give up! He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to die for our sins and give us eternal life. By simple faith in Him we can be reconciled with God. The effects of Adam's prideful rebellion are all around us, but Jesus Christ came to take away the effects of that sin.

As the Bible says, "God's act of grace is out of all proportion to Adam's wrongdoing For if by the wrongdoing of that one man death established its reign, through a single sinner, much more shall those who receive in far greater measure God's grace, and his gift of righteousness, live and reign through the One man Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:15,17. N.E.B.)."
 
Woody said:
Audible,

Here is Billy Graham's explanation:

"My Answer", 1970s. By Billy Graham. "Q. I have difficulty understanding the story of Adam and Eve. What was so wrong about eating the fruit of the tree in the Garden of Eden?"

"A. The Bible teaches that Adam and Eve were created to worship and serve God. However, they also had complete free will, and they chose to turn their backs on God by disobeying Him. The action of Adam and Eve was wrong simply because God had forbidden the eating of the fruit of 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). They had the choice of either obeying God or disobeying Him.
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they had no free will, they were forced into it coerced, free will does'nt come into it
woody said:
The tree itself had no magical properties, but if they chose to eat of it they would be committing sin for the first time. They would therefore know what evil was in their experience.
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no wrong they were coerced by the serpent, therefore would be like puppets and easerly lead, just as graham says later
woody said:
I think it is important to see that if God had not given Adam and Eve the choice between good and evil
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as this did'nt happen because they were coerced, god was unfair in it's treatment of adam and eve.
woody said:
they would have been like puppets because they could have done only what God wanted them to do. But God did not want puppets to love Him He wanted humans who would freely respond to His love.
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no he wanted puppets, and he got them, and still has them.
woody said:
Because of the sin of Adam and Eve the whole human race has become alienated from God.
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what sin. they are not accountable.

if i was in the audiance when this man graham was saying this I would have stood up and argued, the man is and has always been a pilark.
 
Hello Snakelord,

I'm willing to forgive and forget past misunderstandings.

On the subject of snakes, have you ever seen the american hog nosed snake?
He's nonpoisonous and has an interesting defense:

When a hog nose is threatened, he coils up like a viper, flatens out his head, swells out his body, and hisses like he's one bad poisonous snake. He sends the dogs running.

If that doesn't work he has another trick. As soon as you touch him he acts like he's mortally wounded, rolls over on his back, writhes, twitches, and opens his mouth in agony. If you put him on his stomich he goes back on his back and his tongue goes into agonizing convulsions. He puts on a pretty convincing show!

It don't relate to the forum but thought I'd mention it anyway. ;)
 
Audible,

You haven't heard of Billy Graham? Wow!

He's the most well-known evangelist living today, and probably for all time.

He speaks at collisieums and sports stadiums all over the world. There have probably been more than 100 million people that have seen him speak in person. This doesn't count the people that have listened to him on television. When I went to see him speak there were 50 thousand people at the football stadium. He is old and in feeble health now.

Anyway, you take the position that man does not have a free will, and calvinists would agree with you. I am not a calvinist. The bible says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence. He hasn't for-ordained anybody's choice.

You give the same argument that I have against calvinism: if there is no choice then God for-ordained sin, and you really have no choice about heaven or hell. This is not the God I believe in.

Neither am I an Armenian. They will debate you forever about free-will. Even after you die and go to heaven you can still end up in hell according to some of them.

I believe in salvation by grace. Free-will ends at the cross in this view.

No Christian I've spoken to has heard of mental incompetence on the part of Adam and Eve. It's a foreign concept to christians.

I never heard your view either until I talked with a Moonie.
 
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