burden of proof and existence of god

WHY IS IT A THEORY? BECAUSE IT IS UNACCESSIBLE, INCAPABLE OF PHYSICAL OBSERVATION AND STUDY, THEREFORE YOU BASED ITS EXISTENCE UPON VISUALIZATION AND OTHER ELEMENTS THAT "APPEARED" TO MATCH THE BLACKHOLE'S IMAGE...THE BLACKHOLE IS A THEORY AND WILL ALWAYS BE A THEORY, UNLESS OF COURSE THERE WILL BE A HUGE GIANT SPACESHIP THAT WILL OBSERVE THE BLACKHOLE UPCLOSE AND PERSONAL.
No, no, no. Black holes have been confirmed by observation. While we cannot 'see' black holes with directly there are certain phenomena associated with them that has been detected and that confirms their existence.

You really don't understand what a scientific theory is. A theory is a substantiated hypothesis for which there are no refuting facts. A hypothesis is a testable and refutable explanation of observed facts. Once a hypothesis has been formulated experiments and predictions can be made to confirm or refute the hypothesis. Only after a considerable amount of testing and prediction has been shown to be congruent with the hypothesis and only if every observed fact is congruent with the hypothesis is it considered a theory. Much later in the process, if the theory continues to hold without modification it will sometimes be called a law.

Thus we have:
The fact of gravity (things fall to the Earth when dropped).
The hypothesis of gravity (masses exert an attractive force upon each other)
The theory of gravity (confirmation of the hypothesis with no refuting facts)

Now then, using the theory of gravity some scientists predicted/hypothesized that there could be phenomena where a body was so massive and small (dense) that the force of gravity it exerted would cause even light to fall towards it, causing it to appear black. In actuality they were laboring at the time under the misconception that light was a particle and had mass. Luckily they were working with a mathematical model that was correct even if their interpretation of what it meant was not. Later on, Einstein developed a hypothesis (that is now a theory) as to why gravity can affect light even though it has no mass. Still the math holds out and black-holes continued to be a viable prediction/hypothesis. More recently, we have discovered facts that support the hypothesis of black-holes it to the point where we can call it a theory.

That is my point, YOU CANNOT "PROVE" BLACKHOLE TO ME, BUT YOU CAN PRESENT "EVIDENCE"
One judges the veracity of a hypothesis by the amount of substantiating evidence and the lack of contrary evidence. Proof is merely the amount of substantiating evidence required to convince you.

IN SUMMARY ACCORDING TO YOU, KING HENRY, EVOLUTION, SHAKESPEARE, QUEEN ELIZABETH, GOD THE INTELLIGENT DESIGNER, AND BLACKHOLE ARE ALL FAKE
No this would not follow at all. You are incorrect.

YOU CAN ONLY PROVIDE "EVIDENCE" BUT IF SUCH AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE I HAVE GIVEN TO YOU IS NOT "PROOF"
What evidence have you provided? All I've seen so far consists primarily of hearsay and other unsubstantiated claims. If you want to believe in God based on those claims or upon your own subjective experience, that's fine with me, but when you start speaking about proof and evidence and theory you're making claims that require quite a bit more.

You might say "Blackhole are visible"
No, I would never said that black holes are visible although some of their affects are.

Trillions upon trillions of people have died
No, "trillions upon trillions" of people have not even been born in the whole history of the planet. I believe the estimate is still under 1 trillion. Once again, you exaggerate.

without having to see the blackhole, does it mean blackhole is a myth because they have not seen it?
Now see, here's the cool thing about science. If you are so inclined you can examine the evidence for yourself. If you doubt the scientists you can collect the evidence and offer your own alternative hypothesis, substantiate it, and win a Nobel Prize. Or if you're merely curious you can look up the evidence and the theory and analyze it yourself.

I have never seen blackhole in my life, is it then a myth?? Photos? Like I was saying it could have been a picture of anything but a blackhole myth...Who has seen blackhole? Scientist claimed to have seen blackhole..but I havent, therefore its a myth?
Who has seen God? Saints claim to have seen God.. But I haven seen God, does it mean he is a myth?
Once again, you're simply not understanding. It's not a matter of hearsay evidence. A scientist cannot simply claim 'I saw X' and all the other scientists believe him.

~Raithere
 
Whatsup, you're wrong in ALL of the subjects discussed. If you can't defend yourself then shut up (*quote* from whatsup, modified) :p

You grumpy old man, go home and drink tea.
 
This article was written by one of my professors, I would like everyone to read it and I am sorry for the length of it, but it is well written. This article addresses a few points that we have been debating over. - Phaedrus

The Cobb County Creationism battle: Should alternate theories be taught along with Evolution?
________________________________________________________________________
Dr. David R. Schwimmer

During this past month, Georgia and much of the Nation have learned about a battle over science education that raged in the school board of Cobb County. If this were a rural Georgia county, it might not attract much attention; but, being a gentrified suburb of the Atlanta Metro area, the events in Cobb Co. have great impact. Letters already appearing in the Ledger-Enquirer show that the outcome of this contest has begun to spill over into Columbus, and we can predict that the controversy will eventually land squarely on our school board.

The specific contest in Cobb Co. was whether alternatives to Evolutionary Theory could be allowed (not required) in the county’s public schools. The wording of the final resolution, passed by the board on September 26th, can be summarized by this quote from the resolution:

“…the Cobb County School District believes that discussion of disputed views
of academic subjects is a necessary element of providing a balanced education,
including the study of the origin of species. This subject remains an area of
intense interest, research, and discussion among scholars….”

It goes on to state that this policy neither restricts the teaching of Evolution nor promotes the teaching of Creationism.

The resolution may seem fair and reasonable because it appears to promote the spirit of balance and open inquiry that Americans applaud. However, this same policy has scientists and educators all over the state and nation concerned, frustrated, and militant. Many hundreds of PhD biologists, geologists, paleontologists, anthropologists, and others scientists have signed petitions or written personal letters to the Cobb County School Board deploring the resolution. Indeed, the National Academy of Sciences (with 170 Nobel Laureate members), the American Astronomical Society, The Geological Society of America, and other major scientific societies have published formal denunciations of the policy. Why are these scientists and others so angry? Are we so afraid of competing ideas?

In this article, I would like to frame this controversy as “Frequently Asked Questions” on Evolution and the alternatives. Of course, I do this from the viewpoint of a conventional scientist working in a field that deals squarely the history of life on earth—and clearly I have my philosophical biases. I can’t pretend to do an adequate job of presenting the “Intelligent Design” or “Creationist” arguments, but I will try to frame the questions in such a manner that the reader can at least understand where conventional scientists are coming from. The following FAQ’s are arranged in the order in which they are most frequently asked of me.


“Question 1: Evolution just a theory; shouldn’t other theories also be examined in science classes?
This basic question is critical to the subject, so please allow a bit of lecturing. The term “theory” is used in entirely different ways by technical scientists and by the public. (Don’t take my word for it, check any dictionary). We all know the everyday definition, which is “an idea” as in “it’s just a theory.” That would never apply to the scientific definition, which is some variation of “the best explanation of a phenomenon, based on observations, experimentation and reasoning”. Many philosophical books have been written about the nature of scientific theories, and none of them deals with “just an idea.”

The Theory of Evolution is a legitimate scientific theory, as are Atomic and Electromagnetic Theories in physics, the Germ Theory in medicine, Plate Tectonics Theory in geology, and many other pillars of modern science. If a person ever claims “evolution is just a theory,” you may be sure that person is either unaware of the concept, or is playing fast and loose with the truth. “Just” and “theory” cannot be used in the same definition in science rhetoric.

Now, are there other scientific theories dealing with the history of life, besides Evolution? (If they exist, I believe they should be taught in science classes.) Specifically, are “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” legitimate scientific theories? So far, the answer is no, as the next set of questions will address. These two notions are “theories” in the popular sense, that is “just ideas,” but definitely not in the scientific sense.

Question 2: The alternatives to Evolution proposed to the Cobb Co. Board are “Intelligent Design Theory” and “Creation Theory:” what are they?
Intelligent Design (I.D.) is based on the central concept that most life forms are too complex to have evolved by random or non-directed processes. One key aspect of this argument is “irreducible complexity,” which claims that the makeup of many organic structures is so critical, that were any component missing, the entire thing would not work. One may ask, how can such structures as bird’s wings, vertebrate eyes, bacterial flagella, etc., evolve gradually? Many of the publications supporting I.D. are detailed, esoteric, and use mathematical models to prove the complexity of life and the unlikelihood of randomness in its occurrence. Some I.D. proponents accept the majority of evolutionary reasoning, except for the part that assumes the process results from undirected natural phenomena. Other I.D.-ers believe that an ”Intelligent Designer” has micro-managed nearly every detail of nature.

“Biblical Creationism” has been around for centuries, whereas “Creation Science” dates to ca. 1950; both are shades of the idea that all life on earth was specifically created by God, within a literal week at the beginning of the earth. Most mainstream Creationists also believe that the earth is no more than around 6400 years old and is located at the center of the universe. Further, the leading “Creation Science” Institutes aggressively support the concept that the entire fossil record derives from Noah’s Flood, and that all surviving life derives from individual pairs of animals transported on Noah’s Ark (except, perhaps, the fish).


Question 3: Why aren’t “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” valid scientific theories?
The answer is threefold: first, because there is no legitimate published data to support either idea; second, because the reasoning behind both concepts lies outside the realm of science; and third, because most of their arguments are based only on negative reasoning.
On the first point, certainly many lengthy books and articles have been written in support of both concepts, including many published critiques of evolutionary. But none of these, to date, constitutes the type of evidence that can be used to elevate a popular notion to a scientific theory. To explain this I must clarify what is meant by “legitimate” published data.

In the sciences (including medicine and engineering), professional workers publish their significant findings in peer-reviewed (also called “refereed”) journals. The reasoning behind this is that technical science, being very complex and specific, requires colleagues at the same level of expertise and knowledge as the author to scrutinize a proposed publication for errors of logic or method before it is accepted for journal publication. The science community understands this is a form of censorship; but, it is censorship intended to suppress poor methods and poor quality, not to suppress unpopular results.

This peer-review process has served us well for the past 150 years. Consider, for example, how you would feel about your doctor trying out a new procedure or medication that he learned from the National Star, or Cosmopolitan, rather than, say, the peer-reviewed New England Journal of Medicine. Now, it may be surprise many people following the Creation/Evolution controversies to learn that, to date, no peer-reviewed publications have ever documented any aspect of either Creationism of Intelligent Design “theories:” none, period.

One of the strongest evidences that there is little or no substance to these alternate ideas on life history is the fact that some professional scientists who decry evolution (see Question 6) and somehow fail to publish on those same ideas in the refereed journals, still publish on non-evolutionary aspects of science in the peer-reviewed literature. One has to ask why they are not confident enough to submit “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” information to professional scrutiny? Why do they publish anti-evolutionary ideas only in the popular press?

The real reason that Creationism and I.D. articles are not peer-reviewed is because of the second flaw in their philosophical nature: they are based on assumptions about the supernatural, whereas modern science must be based on the natural. The concept of modern “Supernatural Science” is an oxymoron. (Which is not to say that the supernatural is impossible but, rather, that it is outside the realm of scientific analysis.) For example, how can we presume to understand the mechanics of the Earth, or the motions of the stars, or the chemistry of matter, if the laws of nature may be suspended by supernatural forces? (This was the problem with Alchemy, Medieval medicine, and pre-Copernican astronomy). Recognizing these limitations, the modern proponents of “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” have carefully omitted the word “Divine” from either name in order to attempt an appearance of naturalism. Ironically, many public supporters of Creationism and I.D. bring up having God in the science curriculum, while the professional supporters of these notions shy away from the same topic because they know it is anathema to science.

The third fatal flaw is that “Creation Science” and “I.D. Theory” are based mostly on negative attacks on Evolution. For example, Creationists doubt the information about the earth’s age known by geologists, doubt the chain of relationships among organisms documented by biologists, and seriously doubt the close physical and ancestral relationships of apes and humans observed by anthropologists. Intelligent Design theorists doubt that natural events alone could cause the complexities of life. Nevertheless, even if these negative arguments were grounded in firm data, all that would be proven is that Evolution is invalid. Neither alternative would be proven true by this line of reasoning. This follows because there are innumerable additional “origins” arguments and legends, including those of indigenous natives on every continent as well as more recent ideas such as intergalactic “Panspermia.” None of these is any more or less reasonable scientifically than is “Intelligent Design” or “Creationism” in the absence of actual, positive data.

Question 4: But isn’t Evolution a “Theory In Crisis” since many PhD scientists question Darwinism?”
The short answer is “not at all.” This argument is roughly equivalent to proposing that rocket science is no good because we have an occasional accident and no one has yet landed on Mars. Going back to the nature of scientific theories, they are, by their design, supposed to be modified as new information arises. In the case of Darwin’s original ideas, one must keep in mind that they are over 140 years old! Imagine if students were taught ca.1859 physics, or medical practice of days before antisepsis, antibiotics or anesthesia. Yet, critics attack Darwin as if he both began and ended our knowledge of evolutionary theory.

Every technical critique of evolutionary theory in the professional journals has been about details of the theory, rather than about the concept as a whole. For example, we recognize today that evolution may proceed much faster than Darwin envisioned, or it may not occur in some groups for extended periods of geological time (such creatures often called “living fossils,” including alligators and sharks). It is also recognized today that natural selection may not be the only driving force behind evolution, in contrast with Darwin’s ideas. For example, natural catastrophes may have a major effect on the course of life history (such as the asteroid impact that ended the reign of dinosaurs). But, my colleagues in paleontology, organismal biology, and related sciences, have never critiqued the basic framework of evolutionary theory. The “crisis” is perceived only by opponents.

Question 5. If Evolution is a scientific theory, what kind of evidence is there and how can you know what happened in the past?
A simple summary of “Evolutionary Theory” is that new species and higher groups arise from older forms over time, and that most or all life forms have common ancestry. It is the fact of evolution that life has changed throughout earth’s history: we have a superabundant fossil record to prove that. Of course, we cannot go literally back to the prehistoric past to see events transpiring, but we have abundant, material evidence of past events. My discipline of paleontology is based precisely on that material evidence, and molecular biologists, botanical and biological systematists, and other scientists deal every working day with evidence of the interrelationships of living organisms.

I am often asked to “describe the evidence for evolution.” This is akin to describing the evidence for microorganisms causing infections. One hardly knows where to begin because the amount of data available is staggering. There are perhaps a hundred and fifty peer-reviewed journals, in English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, etc., (many entitled “The Journal of Evolutionary …..”), publishing data on the evolutionary relationships of specific groups of organisms. Assume ten articles appear per issue, six or more issues per year, 150 journals averaging perhaps 20 to 50 years of publication each, and you get a sense of the volume of documentation we have for the facts of evolution.

One “test” of Evolutionary Theory bears on my personal research, so I will describe it in some detail. It is widely accepted by evolutionary science that dominant forms of life characterize various times of earth history (for example, the Mesozoic Era was the “Age of Reptiles” and we now live in the “Age of Mammals.”) When I first moved to Columbus, the sedimentary rocks of the region were dated by prior study to the Mesozoic Era, but no dinosaurs or other “ruling reptiles” (pterodactyls, etc.) had been found here. Based on the assumption that local rock of Mesozoic Age might contain dinosaur and related fossils, I predicted they might be found here, and they were. Had I found modern mammal fossils in those Mesozoic rocks, I would have created a significant problem with Evolutionary Theory. By passing the test, the theory achieves another confirmation and more factual data. Neither I nor countless other paleontologists find significant occurrences of life forms out of chronology (i.e. dogs do not appear before algae and sponges in the fossil record, nor do people appear before monkeys). Independently, molecular biologists have discovered that the genomes of higher organisms can be grouped into relationships that parallel their assumed evolutionary histories. Likewise, animals often bear signs of their ancestries as vestigial organs (e.g. the hind legs of primitive whales), which support independent assumptions of their evolutionary ancestries. Note that these are positive evidences for evolution, not negatives about Creationism.


Question 6. Why have many scientists recently signed statements opposing “Darwinism”?
This may seem an anomaly indeed, unless we closely examine who we are talking about. First, I doubt anyone really knows how many “anti-evolutionary” scientists there really are. For example, I have before me the latest issue of Acts and Facts from the “Institute for Creation Research.” I have received these mailings for over 20 years, and they no doubt include me in their lists of “scientists in support of Creationism” (for the record, I did not request the mailings).

However I have met a handful of anti-evolution PhD Scientists, and I am sure there are hundreds I do not know. Who are they? An examination of A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism coming from the “Discovery Institute” (the leading organization sponsoring I.D. before the Cobb County Board), is revealing. (And, note, the statement refers to “Darwinism,” not Evolutionary Theory!) This document was alleged signed by over 100 scientists, listed by degrees, titles and specializations. It looks impressive, until one considers that the majority have degrees in physics, chemistry, math, and medicine. In fact, the originators of modern “Creation Science” were Henry Morris, a civil engineer, and Dr. Duane Gish, an organic chemist. “Intelligent Design Theory” was largely formulated by Dr. Phillip Johnson, a law professor, Dr. William Dembske, a mathematics professor, and Dr. Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry. None, except, perhaps, Dr. Behe, deals professionally with actual aspects of life. As a paleontologist, I may have strong opinions about the relationships among the teeth of extinct reptiles, but I do not presume to advise dentists about doing root canals.

Returning to the “Discovery Institute” statement, I observe that there are no paleontologists or physical anthropologists I can identify among the names, and a great many of the biologists are Emeritus professors (i.e. retired), or have unusual affiliations (for example, many are at “Biola University” and the biologists include some at “Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences,” “Dordt College,” Cedarville University” “University of Steubenville,” etc.). What are conspicuously rare in this document are working biologists and other life scientists from mainstream universities. I am sure some of the scientists signing this statement are knowledgeable individuals who, for some reason, just cannot accept the Theory of Evolution. That was my impression of several unusual geological scientists I have met and chatted with, including some of the better-known PhD anti-evolutionists. I won’t presume to explain their motives; but, I can state that every such person I have met was openly deeply religious.

Skeptics have and will exist in all fields of science. For example, some working geologists held out against the Theory of Plate Tectonics for a decade after it became mainstream thinking. And, as of the late 1990’s, there were still trained virologists who doubted the causal link between HIV and AIDS. Sometimes the skeptics perform a service by forcing mainstream scientists to carefully examine our models and consider the philosophical roots we profess. Sometimes skeptics only slow down understanding or progress. But where non-supported skepticism impedes the education of children, I believe we must be very careful and wise in our actions.
 
stupid article...All false accusation of what christians believe, thinking the bible must be taken literally..And claimning darwinism is "scientificly proven", STUPID ARTICLE. I can make even BETTER article than that..Ands you know what, I WILL DO IT..
So many errors in that article..NO WONDER WHY YOU GUYS ARE ATHEIST, YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO AND BRAINWASHED BY ANOTHER ATHEISTS, WHO HAVE THE TITLE "SCIENTIST". THERE ARE SO MANY ERROS IN THAT ARTICLE, and I will point that out tonight...
 
Phaedrus

This article addresses a few points that we have been debating over.

The real reason that Creationism and I.D. articles are not peer-reviewed is because of the second flaw in their philosophical nature: they are based on assumptions about the supernatural, whereas modern science must be based on the natural. The concept of modern “Supernatural Science” is an oxymoron. (Which is not to say that the supernatural is impossible but, rather, that it is outside the realm of scientific analysis.) For example, how can we presume to understand the mechanics of the Earth, or the motions of the stars, or the chemistry of matter, if the laws of nature may be suspended by supernatural forces?

Thanks. The above quote is exactly the point of a thread I created in which I suggested that science, as we know it, would not survive and would simply become redundant if hard evidence of the supernatural (God) existed.

From what I gather from your professor's article and the above quote, indirectly, it would appear he tends to agree. :)

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=13451
 
Q, I respect your posts and the thoughts that you put into them. However, I tend to disagree with you here. If, and I want to emphasize the word IF, it were ever scientifically proven beyond a doubt (but it likely never will, for many reasons) that God does exist, would archaeologists still dig into the earth, hoping to find artifacts that unravel the lifestyles and civilizations of the past? Would astronomers still stare into space, attempting to unravel the processes of black-hole formation or anti-matter? Would chemists still experiment with substances, searching for the cure of cancer and other diseases? Sure, some questions would certainly be answered, such as the origins of life perhaps, but many, many more would remain unsolved and ripe for discovery.

><>
 
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Inspector

Sure, some questions would certainly be answered, such as the origins of life perhaps, but many, many more would remain unsolved and ripe for the discovery.

Perhaps, but what would be the point ?

I most certainly would lose all interest in science if every discovery led to the same supernatural conclusion. There would be little reason to continue our quest for knowledge if every question led to the same answer.

And if supernatural were the final conclusion, how are we ever able to know whether there can be any constants ? A supernatural being could change the outcome of any experiment at any time, leading us to believe.... what ?

For the Q, life would not be worth living if there were only subservience, subsistence and subterfuge.


><>............................><Ç(((Ç°>
 
"And if supernatural were the final conclusion, how are we ever able to know whether there can be any constants ? A supernatural being could change the outcome of any experiment at any time, leading us to believe.... what ?"
------------------------

Q, the laws of nature (both known and presently unknown) exist, whether there is a God or not. Scientifically, we have yet to discover a fraction of what is available to be studied.




"For the Q, life would not be worth living if there were only subservience, subsistence and subterfuge."
--------------------------

I am sure there are a lot of people who echo your feelings of independence and autonomy. Perhaps, this is why, collectively, we are not given direct proof, but rather, indirect evidence for God's existence?

><>
 
"Dr. David R. Schwimmer

If a person ever claims “evolution is just a theory,” you may be sure that person is either unaware of the concept, or is playing fast and loose with the truth. “Just” and “theory” cannot be used in the same definition in science rhetoric. "


****** I called it "just a theory" because it is just a theory, what do you want me to say? It is a fact? why should I say that when it is a theory....And he is wrong, I am aware of the fossil evidence, I agree with evolution, but I believe it doesnt take a gnius to understand that things evolve, there are those howerver few others who believes that evolution contradicts with God being the creator, when they are very well wrong.******
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"Now, are there other scientific theories dealing with the history of life, besides Evolution? (If they exist, I believe they should be taught in science classes.) Specifically, are “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” legitimate scientific theories? So far, the answer is no, as the next set of questions will address. These two notions are “theories” in the popular sense, that is “just ideas,” but definitely not in the scientific sense."

******Why is it not scientific? Because the intelligent designer have no evidence? Are you proposing humans have no intelligence? Fact is intelligence is responsible 4 creating cars, technologies, etc. In fact biological existence are caused by intelligent act as well. The materials and physics we use are going in motions according to the direction intelligence directs it...How is creation not a scientific theory? When the fact is cloning, and creation of scientific data came from "intelligence", unless of course there are existing functioning ordered matters that exust through "chance", and if there is...I would gladly hear it...******
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“Biblical Creationism” has been around for centuries, whereas “Creation Science” dates to ca. 1950; both are shades of the idea that all life on earth was specifically created by God, within a literal week at the beginning of the earth. Most mainstream Creationists also believe that the earth is no more than around 6400 years old and is located at the center of the universe. Further, the leading “Creation Science” Institutes aggressively support the concept that the entire fossil record derives from Noah’s Flood, and that all surviving life derives from individual pairs of animals transported on Noah’s Ark (except, perhaps, the fish).


*******Indeed this guy is right, most christians have "faith" alone and are ignorant about their beliefs, and yes you can say they have "blind faith", however, to many educated christians, that is not the case.****
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"Question 3: Why aren’t “Intelligent Design” and “Creationism” valid scientific theories?
The answer is threefold: first, because there is no legitimate published data to support either idea; second, because the reasoning behind both concepts lies outside the realm of science; and third, because most of their arguments are based only on negative reasoning."


*****Explain what are the realm of science and how does "intelligent design" lies outside of it..And how is intelligent design based on negative reason? Fact here is that the existence of ordered, functioning intelligence are caused by intelligent act, thats a fact...Explain how is intelligent design based on a negative.......*****

-------------------------------------------------------------------

"The real reason that Creationism and I.D. articles are not peer-reviewed is because of the second flaw in their philosophical nature: they are based on assumptions about the supernatural, whereas modern science must be based on the natural. The concept of modern “Supernatural Science” is an oxymoron. (Which is not to say that the supernatural is impossible but, rather, that it is outside the realm of scientific analysis.) For example, how can we presume to understand the mechanics of the Earth, or the motions of the stars, or the chemistry of matter, if the laws of nature may be suspended by supernatural forces? (This was the problem with Alchemy, Medieval medicine, and pre-Copernican astronomy). "

*******What is supernatural? Beyond the laws of nature? Beyond the laws of physics? If it is outside of the law of nature, then it is not science based? If so, then I want to know every detail of the "laws of nature" and "laws of physics".List them here, and Ill prove this article wrong....And Im not going to talk about the other galaxies and spaces, but rather the nature of planet earth..****

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"The third fatal flaw is that “Creation Science” and “I.D. Theory” are based mostly on negative attacks on Evolution. For example, Creationists doubt the information about the earth’s age known by geologists, doubt the chain of relationships among organisms documented by biologists, and seriously doubt the close physical and ancestral relationships of apes and humans observed by anthropologists. "

******Stupid accusation, I know I dont and many other believers, in fact this are taught in christian high schools. Stupid accusation, maybe the ignorant ones disagree, but not me and many others...******

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"Intelligent Design theorists doubt that natural events alone could cause the complexities of life. Nevertheless, even if these negative arguments were grounded in firm data, all that would be proven is that Evolution is invalid. Neither alternative would be proven true by this line of reasoning. "

*****Again how is intelligent design negative? Did you read the word "INTELLIGENCE" what part of that dont you understand? isnt it intelligent act that causes living beings and insects to exist, conception requires "intelligence"..Cars, computers, stereos are caused by "intelligent design"..*******


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Question 4: But isn’t Evolution a “Theory In Crisis” since many PhD scientists question Darwinism?”
The short answer is “not at all.” This argument is roughly equivalent to proposing that rocket science is no good because we have an occasional accident and no one has yet landed on Mars. Going back to the nature of scientific theories, they are, by their design, supposed to be modified as new information arises. In the case of Darwin’s original ideas, one must keep in mind that they are over 140 years old! "

****You are defending the Darwin's theory because it could not be complete considering it is 140 yrs old! and your right!! But the book of Genesis is also over 4,000 yrs old! So what do you think! Plus back then thier vocabularies are limited, and it has to be interpreted! Plus their language are based on parables, as it is the tradition at the time!! So wake up! THE BIBLE CANNOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY.****

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"Question 5. If Evolution is a scientific theory, what kind of evidence is there and how can you know what happened in the past?
A simple summary of “Evolutionary Theory” is that new species and higher groups arise from older forms over time, and that most or all life forms have common ancestry. It is the fact of evolution that life has changed throughout earth’s history: we have a superabundant fossil record to prove that. Of course, we cannot go literally back to the prehistoric past to see events transpiring, but we have abundant, material evidence of past events. My discipline of paleontology is based precisely on that material evidence, and molecular biologists, botanical and biological systematists, and other scientists deal every working day with evidence of the interrelationships of living organisms."


****I agree, theory of evolution is evident, thats why i BELIEVE in this theory...*****
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am often asked to “describe the evidence for evolution.” This is akin to describing the evidence for microorganisms causing infections. One hardly knows where to begin because the amount of data available is staggering. There are perhaps a hundred and fifty peer-reviewed journals, in English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, etc., (many entitled “The Journal of Evolutionary …..”), publishing data on the evolutionary relationships of specific groups of organisms. Assume ten articles appear per issue, six or more issues per year, 150 journals averaging perhaps 20 to 50 years of publication each, and you get a sense of the volume of documentation we have for the facts of evolution."

****Thats good education indeed..*****

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But where non-supported skepticism impedes the education of children, I believe we must be very careful and wise in our actions. "


***So practice what you preach then...And dont lie and say "Intelligent design" is based on negative, for in this case, scientist, engineers, PHD are all "negative" for they are labeled as such according to their intelligence...****
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note: The "intelligent design" being negative is another false accusation the atheist children makes when presenting argument, like "You cannot disprove a negative, therefore giant purple squid monkeys have the same validity of proof as God", this are FALSE accusation....We simply ask for evidence of claim, simple and logic, nobody is talking about the "negative" atheist are putting those words in our mouth....

I DID NOT RESPOND TO THE REST OF HIS POSTS BECAUSE I FOUND IT UNNECCESSARY...

IN SUMMARY, I WANT YOU TO LABEL WHAT ARE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AND LAWS OF NATURE (which is where science is based on)....LIST THEM HERE...Ill start one out for you...

1.) Gravity...
2.) ?
3.)?
4.)?
5.)?
6.)?

LIST THEM SO I MAY KNOW WHAT ARE THOSE LAWS, AND WHAT ARE THEY CAPABLE OF, THIS WAY CHILDREN WILL LEARN BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS LIKE ABOVE AGAIN....
 
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Inspector

Q, the laws of nature (both known and presently unknown) exist, whether there is a God or not.

The laws of nature would mean very little if they were the laws of a God.

Perhaps, this is why, collectively, we are not given direct proof, but rather, indirect evidence for God's existence?

Any evidence, directly or indirectly, of Gods existence would wipe out a rational mans reason for living. We are not one with God, we are one with nature. You can separate man from the supernatural, but you cannot separate man from nature.


><>............................><Ç(((Ç°>
 
"The laws of nature would mean very little if they were the laws of a God."
------------------

So, if God exists, by your reasoning, the law of gravity and it's associated properties are meaningless?




"Any evidence, directly or indirectly, of Gods existence would wipe out a rational mans reason for living."
--------------------

So, your charge is that all Creation-based scientists such as Louis Pasteur, Isaac Newton and Gregor Mendel were irrational? This is quite a bold statement from you, Q.




"We are not one with God, we are one with nature. You can separate man from the supernatural, but you cannot separate man from nature."
---------------------

........and you cannot scientifically divorce nature from God.

><>
 
Inspector

So, if God exists, by your reasoning, the law of gravity and it's associated properties are meaningless?

Let me put it this way - physics attempts to answer the question, "how things work." If the answer was always God, then the answer is meaningless, hence so is the question.

So, your charge is that all Creation-based scientists such as Louis Pasteur, Isaac Newton and Gregor Mendel were irrational? This is quite a bold statement from you, Q.

It would be a bold statement if it came from me, but it didn't.

........and you cannot scientifically divorce nature from God.

The honeymoon is over! ;)

><>............................><Ç(((Ç°>
 
****** I called it "just a theory" because it is just a
theory, what do you want me to say? It is a fact? why should I say
that when it is a theory....And he is wrong, I am aware of the fossil
evidence, I agree with evolution, but I believe it doesnt take a
gnius to understand that things evolve, there are those howerver few
others who believes that evolution contradicts with God being the
creator, when they are very well wrong.******


Look, you're completely ignoring what the definition
of a theory is. If you continue to ignore *basic* definitions you
don't know what you're arguing about. You're the one yelling at
everyone to define things, then why do you ignore those definitions
that they give you? Because you're either reluctant to accept that
your posts are utterly incoherent yelling or you're stalling for time
within your tiny little head.
As I said, signs of senility, old
man. Congrats to you.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


******Why is it (intelligent design) not scientific? Because the
intelligent designer have no evidence? Are you proposing humans have
no intelligence?


*rolls eyes* Yes, duh. What the helll does humans having no intelligence have with ID? You're so messed
up.


*******Indeed this guy is right, most christians have
"faith" alone and are ignorant about their beliefs, and yes
you can say they have "blind faith", however, to many
educated christians, that is not the case.****


Alright, suppose we evaluate the noah's ark to see if
it would fit as a theory. If the flood really did create the fossil
record then the fossils would all have to be of the same age. But
it's not. Pretty weak.


*****Explain what are the realm of science and how does
"intelligent design" lies outside of it..And how is
intelligent design based on negative reason? Fact here is that the
existence of ordered, functioning intelligence are caused by
intelligent act, thats a fact...Explain how is intelligent design
based on a negative.......*****


It has no evidence. Don't try to dispute why an idea
has to have physical evidence to count as a scientific theory. And
stop asking what physical is, we've told you more than enough times
and you've ignored all of them.



*******What is supernatural? Beyond the laws of nature? Beyond
the laws of physics? If it is outside of the law of nature, then it
is not science based? If so, then I want to know every detail of the
"laws of nature" and "laws of physics".List them
here, and Ill prove this article wrong....And Im not going to talk
about the other galaxies and spaces, but rather the nature of planet
earth..****


Yes. Go open a book of physics, chemistry, or biology
to find out what they are. I can't post it here, lest Porfiry kill me
for overloading sciforums memory.



******Stupid accusation, I know I dont and many other believers,
in fact this are taught in christian high schools. Stupid accusation,
maybe the ignorant ones disagree, but not me and many
others...******


Good job teaching false science in high schools, if that's what you do for a living. Now why don't you ask me to define science? And define the definition of science? And define the definition of the definition of science? And define definition? Stop stalling and get over it.

*****Again how is intelligent design negative? Did you read the word
"INTELLIGENCE" what part of that dont you understand? isnt
it intelligent act that causes living beings and insects to exist,
conception requires "intelligence"..Cars, computers,
stereos are caused by "intelligent design"..*******


Cars, computers, and stereos are not alive and are not considered to have much to do with intelligent design or evolution. Or this debate. They're as relevant as fuzzy pink elephants (who brought it up anyway? Do you all have some elephant fetish or something? You're all weird.). There is absolutely no proof of intelligent design save religious texts. There is the immense fossil record for the theory of evolution.


****You are defending the Darwin's theory because it could not be
complete considering it is 140 yrs old! and your right!! But the
book of Genesis is also over 4,000 yrs old! So what do you think!
Plus back then thier vocabularies are limited, and it has to be
interpreted! Plus their language are based on parables, as it is the
tradition at the time!! So wake up! THE BIBLE CANNOT BE TAKEN
LITERALLY.****


You're right, the bible can not and should not be taken literally. One must read it with an active intelligence and pick out the parts of value and throw away the rest instead of sucking it all in. Same with anything.

Evolution, must be read and judged literally. Any part that is not correct must be, and have been, and will be, modified by other scientists. And I'll have you know that evolution is taken for granted among all of the academic biology circles.

Moreover, statistics show (I'm serious, I have them right here in my grubby little paws) that the less education you have, the more you are likely to believe creationism to be a scientific theory.



****I agree, theory of evolution is evident, thats why i BELIEVE in
this theory...*****


You shouldn't believe in the theory of evolution. You should just accept it as true because of evidence that supports it. Doesn't seem like much difference, but there is a fine difference.

You do accept evolution as valid?? I thought you went for creationism...



***So practice what you preach then...And dont lie and say
"Intelligent design" is based on negative, for in this
case, scientist, engineers, PHD are all "negative" for they
are labeled as such according to their intelligence...****


The intelligent design idea and the rest of science being taught are irrelevant. ID claims that living things were a creation of a higher intelligence, and education is the transmitting of knowledge to the growing generation. I see nothing in common.

---------------------------------------
note: The "intelligent design" being negative is another
false accusation the atheist children makes when presenting argument,
like "You cannot disprove a negative, therefore giant purple
squid monkeys have the same validity of proof as God", this are
FALSE accusation....We simply ask for evidence of claim, simple and
logic, nobody is talking about the "negative" atheist are
putting those words in our mouth....


Well, I do see where both sides come from. But I'll have you know that I do not consider such "God does not exist versus God exists" battles to be of any value whatsoever. One should not try to flaunt one's religious views and stuff them into someone else's brain. That's what're those socalled atheists (I consider them antichristian activists, not atheists...) and some christians and heck, some of every religious view are doing.


IN SUMMARY, I WANT YOU TO LABEL WHAT ARE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AND
LAWS OF NATURE (which is where science is based on)....LIST THEM
HERE...Ill start one out for you...

1.) Gravity...
2.) ?
3.)?
4.)?
5.)?
6.)?

LIST THEM SO I MAY KNOW WHAT ARE THOSE LAWS, AND WHAT ARE THEY
CAPABLE OF, THIS WAY CHILDREN WILL LEARN BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS LIKE
ABOVE AGAIN....


How many times do we need to tell you? If we list all the theories of nature that are considered to be valid today, we would overload the sciforums memory and be murdered by Porfiry. Just flip open a book on physics, chemistry, or biology.

Children??? You are an old, grumpy man.
 
Last edited:
Although that's a very nice post Maia, I'll post my own too, just because it's fun =P

"I called it "just a theory" because it is just a
theory, what do you want me to say?


Evolution is not just a theory, it is proven fact. Macro-evolution is not yet proven, it's still a theory. However the fact that things evolve to adapt to their environment is as much proven fact as the air you breathe.

"Why is it (intelligent design) not scientific? Because the
intelligent designer have no evidence? Are you proposing humans have
no intelligence? "


I'm gonna have to agree with Maia here, what the heck does humans having intelligence have to do with an intelligent designer. You're making a huge false assumption, mainly that intelligence cannot be formed by natural means. This is not proven, it's not predicted by any theory, it has no evidence and is nothing more than your personal opinion based on false logic.

Explain what are the realm of science and how does
"intelligent design" lies outside of it"


Intelligent Design is out of the realm of science because it deals with both what came 'before' the universe and what currently lies 'outside' it, both of which are places science cannot probe. What you're trying to do, 'proving' the ID theory, is like trying to measure the amount of air pollution in space.

"If so, then I want to know every detail of the
"laws of nature" and "laws of physics".List them
here, and Ill prove this article wrong...."


If you truely want to know go out and read some books on ecology, geology, physics, biology, chemistry. But I have a feeling you don't give a rats ass and are just trying to avoid the point made in the article.

"Stupid accusation, I know I dont and many other believers,
in fact this are taught in christian high schools. Stupid accusation,
maybe the ignorant ones disagree, but not me and many
others.."


Call it stupid if you will, but I've seen this from almost every Creationist 'scientist' I've talked to.

"Again how is intelligent design negative? Did you read the word "INTELLIGENCE" what part of that dont you understand? isnt it intelligent act that causes living beings and insects to exist, conception requires "intelligence"..Cars, computers, stereos are caused by "intelligent design"."

Whatsupyall, it's not his fault you lack good reading skills. He is demonstrating that creationists are again attacking evolution, saying there is no way intelligence can arise naturally. They are not bothering to try and prove their theory, they're just out to denounce evolution. Ie. a negative attack on evolution

"You are defending the Darwin's theory because it could not be complete considering it is 140 yrs old! and your right!! But the book of Genesis is also over 4,000 yrs old! So what do you think! Plus back then thier vocabularies are limited, and it has to be interpreted! Plus their language are based on parables, as it is the tradition at the time!! So wake up! THE BIBLE CANNOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY.**** "

I think that's not the same thing at all whatsup. Genesis is meant to never change, it is constant through time. Scientific theories adjust as more information is discovered. So a 4000 year old theory that never changes is certainly sure to be more out of date than a 140 year old theory that can adjust to new information. Now, if the Bible cannot be taken literally, then it is not an accurate source of information. Since the information can be interpreted many different ways, there is no right way, and thus the information becomes almost useless.

"So practice what you preach then...And dont lie and say "Intelligent design" is based on negative, for in this case, scientist, engineers, PHD are all "negative" for they are labeled as such according to their intelligence..."

Again you are trying to blame the writer for your poor reading skills. Nowhere did he say intelligence is a negative thing, but rather that the ID theory only promotes negative attacks on evolution.

"The "intelligent design" being negative is another false accusation the atheist children makes when presenting argument, like "You cannot disprove a negative, therefore giant purple squid monkeys have the same validity of proof as God", this are FALSE accusation....We simply ask for evidence of claim, simple and logic, nobody is talking about the "negative" atheist are putting those words in our mouth.... "

The ID theory is not negative, it simply puts forth nothing but negative attacks on evolution. But that's correct, you cannot prove something in the negative. Since God has no evidence for his existance, he has the same validity as a purple squid monkey. And no, that is not a false accusation. You tell me why you think it is. Most atheists are not 'talking about the negative' either, whatever that means, you simply lack the reading skills required to see what they're trying to say.

As for listing the laws of nature, go find em yourself. I'm not gonna bust my ass and type out every law known to man just to have you ignore it and say "WHATEVER GOD EXISTS K BYE"
 
By negative theory it is meant that it says "this isn't.., that can't be.."; it says certain things are not so. As opposed to a positive thesis that adds infomation, that provides info on what is.

Part of the problem with ID being thought of as a scientific theory is that there is no way to falsify it. What would we expect to see if life wasn't designed? How can we meaningfully test this hypothesis?

ID is not supposed to be science: it is merely a public relations campaign: it is aimed at school boards and Joe Public rather than seeking to expand our knowledge of the world. The sum total of what ID has and will contribute to science is zero.

I'm gonna have to agree with Maia here, what the heck does humans having intelligence have to do with an intelligent designer.

WhatsupyouMuscleman's theory is that intelligence is subject to the principle of causality. ie the intelligence of the cause of intelligence must be no less than that of the effect. You can't get more intelligence than you put in.* So far he has ignored my critique of this.

Assuming this is true, what he doesn't realise is that the principle of causality states that the cause must be equal to the effect and not greater. Therefore, God can not be any greater than humans.

* Atleast, this is what I have been able to glean from his posts. Who the hell knows what he means?
 
Inspector,

IF, it were ever scientifically proven beyond a doubt (but it likely never will, for many reasons) that God does exist,

would archaeologists still dig into the earth, hoping to find artifacts that unravel the lifestyles and civilizations of the past? Would astronomers still stare into space, attempting to unravel the processes of black-hole formation or anti-matter? Would chemists still experiment with substances, searching for the cure of cancer and other diseases?

Sure, some questions would certainly be answered, such as the origins of life perhaps, but many, many more would remain unsolved and ripe for discovery.
One of the most fundamental traits of humanity is its insatiable curiosity. It is this that drives science so hard. It is because we don’t have answers that we stretch our minds to find them. This curiosity and life itself would simply become meaningless if it was known for certain that God existed. Not because we don’t enjoy searching for answers but because we would know that eternal life in a paradise would await us after death.

Earthly life would simply become the waiting room for the afterlife. What would be the point of trying to discover cures for cancer that would prolong life and delay entrance to paradise? Why waste time searching the stars for new discoveries knowing that all will be revealed when one dies?
 
Assuming this is true, what he doesn't realise is that the principle of causality states that the cause must be equal to the effect and not greater
I'm not agreeing with whatsupyall, but I am curious. How come the cause can not be greater than the effect? Car crashes in to wall at extreme speed, effect on wall is small crack... Maybe I'm missing something, please explain if you have time!

Thnx.
 
The wall may be a small crack, but that's only because it's stronger structurally than the car. The car transfers its kinetic energy to the wall, however it cannot exert a force on the wall greater than its kinetic energy. You can't have a car hit a wall with 10,000kJ of kinetic energy and have it deliver 20,000kJ of energy to the wall. Thus, the effect must always be greater or equal to the cause.
 
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