burden of proof and existence of god

"Is there someplace (books/links) where I can read more about this?"
-----------------------

Poet, although there are many, many more, I offer the following.


For science-related information, visit the secular links of:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml




Also, review the foundation of the works and subsequent dialogues from the following scientists:

Louis Pasteur
Blaise Pascal
Sir Isaac Newton
Sir John A. Fleming
Michael Faraday
Charles Babbage
Joseph Lister
Lord William Kelvin
Samuel F.B. Morse
Gregor Mendel
Robert Boyle
Johannes Kepler
Rudolf Virchow
Sir William Ramsay
Bernhard Riemann



The Dead Sea Scrolls. Also, the archaeological discoveries of over 24,000 original manuscripts of the New Testament.

Any google search of 'secular evidence of the Bible' will give up many gory details. However, to remain unbiased, be sure to use the word 'secular'. ;-)

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There is more than enough proof that the judao-christan god dose not exsit. For instance Evil dose not exsit which is the main basus behind judao-christan belif. (read the bhuda theachings about evil it will open your mind) I am not saying that bhudism is flawless but no one can find a ture flaw with it. my standing is eather athist or athist/bhudist. (ppl call bhudism a form of athisum manly buecse they don't beleve in a god)
 
Originally posted by Raithere



No need to take my word for it, here’s a very nice site that explains black-holes in plain English (I’ve included some snippets below too):
http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/reso...background.html


5. Is a black hole a giant cosmic vacuum cleaner?
The answer to this question is "not really." To understand this, first consider why the force of gravity is so strong close to a black hole. The gravity of a black hole is not special. It does not attract matter differently than any other object does. At a long distance from the black hole the force of gravity falls off as the inverse square of the distance, just as it does for normal objects.
Mathematically, the gravity of any spherical object behaves as if all the mass were concentrated at one central point. Since most ordinary objects have surfaces, you will feel the strongest gravity of an object when you are on its surface. This is as close to its total mass as you can get. If you penetrated the spherical object, getting closer to its core, you would feel the force of gravity get weaker, not stronger. The force of gravity you feel depends on the mass that is interior to you, because the gravity from the mass behind you is exactly canceled by the mass in the opposite direction. Therefore, you will feel the strongest force of gravity from an object, for example a planet, when you are standing on the planet's surface, because it is on the surface that you are closest to its total mass. Penetrating the surface of the planet does not expose you to more of the planet's total mass, but actually exposes you to less of its mass. Now remember the size of a black hole is infinitesimally small. Gravity near a black hole is very strong because objects can get extremely close to it and still be exposed to its total mass.
There is nothing special about the mass of a black hole. A black hole is different from our ordinary experience not because of its mass, but because its radius has vanished. Far away from the black hole, you would feel the same strength of gravity as if the black hole were a normal star. But the force of gravity close to a black hole is enormously strong because you can get so close to its total mass!

8. When were black holes first theorized?
Using Newton's Laws in the late 1790s, John Michell of England and Pierre LaPlace of France independently suggested the existence of an "invisible star." Michell and LaPlace calculated the mass and size — which is now called the "event horizon" — that an object needs in order to have an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. In 1967 John Wheeler, an American theoretical physicist, applied the term "black hole" to these collapsed objects.

9. What evidence do we have for the existence of black holes?
Astronomers have found convincing evidence for a supermassive black hole in the center of the giant elliptical galaxy M87, as well as in several other galaxies. The discovery is based on velocity measurements of a whirlpool of hot gas orbiting the black hole. Hubble Space Telescope data produced an unprecedented measurement of the mass of an unseen object at the center of the galaxy. Based on the kinetic energy of the material whirling about the center (as in Wheeler's dance, see Question 4 above), the object is about 3 billion times the mass of our Sun and appears to be concentrated into a space smaller than our solar system.
For many years x-ray emission from the double-star system Cygnus X-1 convinced many astronomers that the system contains a black hole. With more precise measurements available recently, the evidence for a black hole in Cygnus X-1 is very strong.


~Raithere [/B]

Check this Raithere, have you checked that webpage you just sent me?

If so dont you learn that it is a THEORY? WHY IS IT A THEORY? BECAUSE IT IS UNACCESSIBLE, INCAPABLE OF PHYSICAL OBSERVATION AND STUDY, THEREFORE YOU BASED ITS EXISTENCE UPON VISUALIZATION AND OTHER ELEMENTS THAT "APPEARED" TO MATCH THE BLACKHOLE'S IMAGE...THE BLACKHOLE IS A THEORY AND WILL ALWAYS BE A THEORY, UNLESS OF COURSE THERE WILL BE A HUGE GIANT SPACESHIP THAT WILL OBSERVE THE BLACKHOLE UPCLOSE AND PERSONAL :).
That is my point, YOU CANNOT "PROVE" BLACKHOLE TO ME, BUT YOU CAN PRESENT "EVIDENCE" HOWEVER, IN THE SAME WAY YOU CAN WITH SHAKESPEARE, KING HENRY, AND GOD THE INTELLIGENT DESIGNER....IF GOD IS A MYTH, BLACKHOLE IS A MYTH, IF SHAKESPEARE IS A MYTH, GOD IS A MYTH....
IN SUMMARY ACCORDING TO YOU, KING HENRY, EVOLUTION, SHAKESPEARE, QUEEN ELIZABETH, GOD THE INTELLIGENT DESIGNER, AND BLACKHOLE ARE ALL FAKE........YOU CAN ONLY PROVIDE "EVIDENCE" BUT IF SUCH AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE I HAVE GIVEN TO YOU IS NOT "PROOF", THEN INDEED THEY ARE ALL "MYTHS" AND "FAKE"....
 
You might say "Blackhole are visible"...Who has seen a blackhole? Have you seen it? You saw photos they took, how do I know those are just another type of stars? But not the "blackhole" they described?

Trillions upon trillions of people have died without having to see the blackhole, does it mean blackhole is a myth because they have not seen it?
I have never seen blackhole in my life, is it then a myth?? Photos? Like I was saying it could have been a picture of anything but a blackhole myth...Who has seen blackhole? Scientist claimed to have seen blackhole..but I havent, therefore its a myth?
Who has seen God? Saints claim to have seen God.. But I haven seen God, does it mean he is a myth?
 
What about the concept of God is beyond man's comprehension. Do you think that it is possible that there is proof but we are just looking in the wrong places. I am not exactly speaking of miracles because they are beyond our comprehension of reality. But what about things such as one's search for comfort. Is God based on the personal preference of the believe. Because that has the possibilty of explaining why the concept of God is so commonamoun people.

Just a Thought
 
I want to stick to one subject real quick...And that is what is physical and non physical? Children and adults (who have a mind of children) needs to learn this....
I say God is physical.....Anyone want to tell me he is not? If so, tell me what is non-physical...Explain....
 
inspector: Thank you for all the info, I appreciate it. I am
familiar with some of the references you listed but it has
been quite awhile since I have read them. I am curious,
are you familiar with Nag Hammadi?
 
"I am curious, are you familiar with Nag Hammadi?"
--------------

A little. Are you a gnostic?

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In answering your question, inspector:

If there was a God, and he encompasses the universe, does he work in ways that is beyond us?

I wouldnt say God itself encompasses the universe. God would exist beyond our physical dimension( human universe) and awareness. So the universe would contain aspects or manifestations of its spiritual energy in the form of galaxies, planets, human beings, and trees. So aspects of God would manifest itself in different forms in different dimensions that are within our own. Since we can witness these forms manifested in all creation, we can understand the organization and nature of this God indirectly. But in a finite way because we are finite beings.

All of this is theory. Just a little speculation to get the brain cells buzzing.
 
nonphysical

adj : lacking substance or reality; incapable of being touched or seen; "that intangible thing--the soul"

Science states that there are no limits to splitting an atom, singularity states that if all the spaces are removed, the whole universe can be as small as a pencil...Currently speaking, there is no limit to splitting an atom, our current technology can only detect subatomic particles under 300,000,000 m/s, so whats beyond that is Non-physical? In being so, does it mean its a myth? We cannot detect beyond 200,000,000 few years back, does it then make it nonphysical? therefore a myth? IT WAS NON-PHYSICAL BEFORE, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT BECAME PHYSICAL? Was blackhole non-physical before, then all of a sudden it became physical?
What about the "force" that brings someone to life, which we call a soul...Is that non-physical? If so does it mean YOU are nonphhysical? You are living, an "undetectable" invisible energy keeps you alive, if that is non-physical, is it then a myth?
What about the emotions that drives us to do "right" and "wrong" (generally speaking), what are those emotions which we call "spirit"? What do you call them? "Parascratchomybutto particles"? Is that the name you call it? Did you name it after you scratched your butt last night? Have you detected it? If so demonstrate it, can you "grab" it and place it in someone's body to bring them to life?
If ""emotions" that drive you to do good and evil;spirits (societies view) cannot be detected, then emotions are non-physical, if emotions are non-physical, then it is a myth (according to little children), and in this case, God is also a myth....

In summary, life is a myth, emotion is a myth, God is a myth........

NEED REALITY CHECK?
 
Last edited:
inspector

The reason I asked about Nag Hammadi was because you
mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls and I thought you might be
familiar with it. No biggy - just curious. :)
Are you a gnostic?
No - I don't do religion. I have already stated where I am at as
far as religion goes (a couple of times) so I feel no need to go
into it again. If you are that interested - go look for it. ;)

However, I do enjoy reading the Nag Hammadi Library. One
of my favorite quotes comes from The Gospel Of Thomas:

34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind
person, both of them will fall into a hole."
 
Originally posted by VAKEMP
OldSchoolThinker,
So, God might see us like those parts in 'The Matrix' and 'Spiderman' where things we perceive as fast, can be perceived as slow to another?

'Tis possible.

We all know that's how Santa Claus does it every X-Mas!;)

Thats a good point. Here's an example.

The earth is rotating on its axis at high speed. If its rotating at high speed, then why dont we sense it as rotating fast?

The speed is so rapid that it appears slow to us. And sense it appears slow to us, our experience of time is the same.

God might see us like we see a video tape in slow motion.

I think there is a point in space/time where speed goes from regular fast forword to a level where everything slows down.
I guess in this way, you can cross dimensions. Just a thought.

PS: I liked your joke. Thats another topic.
 
"However, I do enjoy reading the Nag Hammadi Library. One
of my favorite quotes comes from The Gospel Of Thomas:
34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind
person, both of them will fall into a hole."
-------------------------------------


Poet, this is very true. Also in the Nag Hammadi Library, Gospel of Thomas, in verse 33 (the verse preceeding the one you quoted), Jesus says, "................After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

Everything has it's context.

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Everything has its context

Agreed.

Like I said, I enjoy reading the Nag Hammadi Library but
I also enjoy reading a lot of other stuff. I'm running really
behind so I gatta fly. Have a good one! :cool:
 
just a theory?

Whatsupyall you keep acting like a theory is a bad thing. You are using the popular definition of theory, which is incorrect. You need to read the real definition of theory.

Theory:
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Pay special attention to the part that says "...one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted" and also "....can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."

That is a powerful statement. So according to the correct definition, the word theory cannot be thrown around lightly. So stop throwing it around lightly.

You seem to be misunderstanding theory with a hypothesis.

Hypothesis:
A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

A theory is something that is backed with evidence, so much evidence that it makes it seem that it is the correct explanation for a given phenomena. Scientists do not throw around the word theory lightly, at least real scientists do not.

Most people in this board follow science not because it has "theories" that explain phenomena. Plenty of religions try to do this, however if they are correct is another argument. But science is good because it is self-correcting. You do not seem to understand this.

So understand that there is a "theory of gravity", a "theory of relativity" and many more. These are backed up with enough evidence and experiments to merit them the title "theory." We have the "theory of evolution", not the "hypothesis of evolution."

So get your facts straight and buy a dictionary.
 
"So understand that there is a "theory of gravity", a "theory of relativity" and many more. So get your facts straight and buy a dictionary."
----------------------------

Speaking of facts, gravity is a law, not a theory. ;-)

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whatsup, your ignorance of the definition of a theory is appalling. Look up what the hell you're talking about before you open your mouth. You look stupid beyond belief.

A scientific theory is a plausible explanation of some aspect of the natural world supported by testable physical phenomena or otherwise repeatedly observable evidence. A law is a bland generalization of a theory into a single sentence or equation.

Your not knowing about black holes and gravitation is not your fault, however. Many people get it wrong. Ever heard about the special and general theory of relativity?
 
Re: just a theory?

Originally posted by Phaedrus

Theory:
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Theory= Widely accepted (which according to you holds no credibility, considering the fact that God is widely accepted). Intelligent design have been repeatedly tested as a fact to demonstrate the existence of ordered, functioning matters..Predictions about environment? Sounds like "guessing"...

Your right, you dont take theory lightly, considering the fact that you dont hold God lightly. God has far more evidence than a theory...


Originally posted by Phaedrus

Pay special attention to the part that says "...one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted" and also "....can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."

Your right, intelligent designer have been repeatedly tested as a fact to be the cause of ordered, and functioning matters. A FACT. And God is also widely accepted, and yes, the church does make predictions of natural phenomena, such as the fruit of love, hate,jealousy, etc...

Originally posted by Phaedrus

That is a powerful statement. So according to the correct definition, the word theory cannot be thrown around lightly. So stop throwing it around lightly.

Speak for yourself as well....

Originally posted by Phaedrus

You seem to be misunderstanding theory with a hypothesis.

Hypothesis:
A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. .
No Im not...Hypothesis contains no factual evidence.....Dont put words in my mouth.....


Originally posted by Phaedrus

A theory is something that is backed with evidence, so much evidence that it makes it seem that it is the correct explanation for a given phenomena. Scientists do not throw around the word theory lightly, at least real scientists do not. .

So much evidence of theory of evolution? Are you saying God is a theory? There is far more evidence for God than for evolution, shouldnt that qualify God as above theory then?

Originally posted by Phaedrus


So understand that there is a "theory of gravity", a "theory of relativity" and many more. These are backed up with enough evidence and experiments to merit them the title "theory." We have the "theory of evolution", not the "hypothesis of evolution."

So get your facts straight and buy a dictionary.

Yes, I understand what your saying....IN SUMMARY, THEORY IS A STATEMENT AND SPECULATION BACKED WITH EVIDENCE, WHICH REQUIRES FAITH BECAUSE IT IS NOT A FACT....LIKE GOD TO YOU, FOR IT CONTAINS THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE, AND ACTUALLY MORE..IF GOD IS A FACT, EVLUTION IS A FACT. IF EVOLUTION IS A THEORY, GOD IS A THEORY...BUT BECAUSE I HAVE EXPERIENCED GOD PERSONALLY (AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS), TO OUR CONVICTION, GOD IS A FACT....MEANWHILE EVOLUTION IS A THEORY TO ALL, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A THEORY.....

and one more thing.....LOL, I was wrong about you, I thought you are smart, gravity isnt a theory, it is a law...(Well, when certain ppl questions gravity in detail, it can become a theory, like existence of God to others).
 
Originally posted by Zero
whatsup, your ignorance of the definition of a theory is appalling. Look up what the hell you're talking about before you open your mouth. You look stupid beyond belief.

A scientific theory is a plausible explanation of some aspect of the natural world supported by testable physical phenomena or otherwise repeatedly observable evidence. A law is a bland generalization of a theory into a single sentence or equation.

Your not knowing about black holes and gravitation is not your fault, however. Many people get it wrong. Ever heard about the special and general theory of relativity?

LOL, this paragraph belongs to you Zero. Your basically talking to yourself here....:D
 
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