burden of proof and existence of god
- Thread starter Phaedrus
- Start date
No, it doesn't.
A vacuum is an absence of matter. A vacuum exerts no force what-so-ever upon anything. Your misuse of the term suggests a common misunderstanding of what a vacuum is due to the machine we typically call a vacuum. It was so named because it works by causing a 'partial vacuum' within an atmosphere… without an atmosphere to operate within a vacuum cleaner would have no affect at all. The effect is caused by the atmosphere pushing in to fill the vacuum. Sorry, but the terms are not interchangeable particularly when you are talking about scientific issues.
Further, my main point was that a black-hole in no way defies the laws of nature which makes your ‘example’ invalid.
~Raithere
Fine, my bad, I was wrong and I should have not used the word "Vacuum" though my intention was that things are "magnetized" and i figured that means the same as vacuum, but according to you, I guess Im wrong...
Well now, since this is clarified, prove to me that a black hole is a gravity....Because things appeared to be pulled its way? Then How would you know if the force didnt come from the asteroids heading there, instead of it coming from the blackhole...How do I know that the asteroids didn't just attached to it by chance? Did all asteroids attached to blackhole? Or just few of them, what keeps the rest from being pulled there?...So what keeps us from being "pulled" by the blackhole? Size? Isnt that there are asteroids 20 times bigger than earth? Is it distance? So at what distance can the blackhole pull and what are its limits? Why do they get pulled in but earth dont?
Educate me, Im ignorant and a dummy concerning our galaxy, I am skeptic of theories...Explain them to me Raithere, PROVE them to me...
Well now, since this is clarified, prove to me that a black hole is a gravity....Because things appeared to be pulled its way? Then How would you know if the force didnt come from the asteroids heading there, instead of it coming from the blackhole...How do I know that the asteroids didn't just attached to it by chance? Did all asteroids attached to blackhole? Or just few of them, what keeps the rest from being pulled there?...So what keeps us from being "pulled" by the blackhole? Size? Isnt that there are asteroids 20 times bigger than earth? Is it distance? So at what distance can the blackhole pull and what are its limits? Why do they get pulled in but earth dont?
Educate me, Im ignorant and a dummy concerning our galaxy, I am skeptic of theories...Explain them to me Raithere, PROVE them to me...
you might want to open a general physics/astronomy book and read about these things...
then go to a scientific library and look up the original papers. They contain the 'proof' you apparently desperately need.
then go to a scientific library and look up the original papers. They contain the 'proof' you apparently desperately need.
No need to take my word for it, here’s a very nice site that explains black-holes in plain English (I’ve included some snippets below too):
http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/blackholes/teacher/sciencebackground.html
~Raithere
I think that religion only has a lack of proof for people who need proof. The idea that there will ever be enough information to have a structured belief is absurd. For when you have enough factual based information and evidence your belief is no longer a belief. It then becomes more of a theory, more based in the scientific realm. My question is what if there is no determining proof that ever answers the question on either side. Or what if the answer we find is not the one we are looking for. What if the world is truly based on coincidence?
The Universe is indeed awesome, more so than I am even capable of conceiving. The link tells only a miniscule portion of what we know and that is only a small portion of what is out there. In that, I too feel the intense mystery and wonder that I think some people call God. Whatever its origins, understanding it is a more than worthy aspiration. I believe that losing this sense of wonder, for any reason, is a cause of sorrow. How anyone can look at the world and find it trite or boring is beyond me.
~Raithere
Origen,
Welcome to sciforums.
The alternative is that you run the risk of believing something that isn’t true. For example wouldn’t you like to know for sure that the heart surgeon that is about to operate on you has actually been to medical school and that his claim of competency isn’t just a fantasy?
Welcome to sciforums.
Doesn’t everyone want proof? Many religionists think that their god has revealed himself to them at a personal level and for them that is proof. Several theists here are currently fighting to show that there is proof of God, because; presumably it is important for them to have such proof.
The alternative is that you run the risk of believing something that isn’t true. For example wouldn’t you like to know for sure that the heart surgeon that is about to operate on you has actually been to medical school and that his claim of competency isn’t just a fantasy?
I think you are confusing ‘belief’ with ‘blind faith’. E.g. I choose to BELIEVE that there is a sun in the sky BECAUSE there is evidence for it. According to you I should not believe the sun exists since there is evidence for it.
"Several theists here are currently fighting to show that there is proof of God, because; presumably it is important for them to have such proof."
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Not exactly, Christopher. It is the atheist who demands proof. I am reminded of the famous quotation, 'For those of us who believe in God, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough.'
"For example wouldn’t you like to know for sure that the heart surgeon that is about to operate on you has actually been to medical school and that his claim of competency isn’t just a fantasy?"
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Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager? Basically, it says that if you DO NOT BELIEVE in God and have no faith in Him, and you are right, then you have lost nothing. Similarly, if I BELIEVE in God and have faith in Him, and I, too, am wrong, I have, also, lost nothing. However, if I BELIEVE that God exists and have faith in Him, and I am ultimately right, then I receive the gifts that are promised to me in the Bible (salvation), which, BTW, has been proven (by secular archaeologists and scientists) to be historically/textually accurate and archaeologically consistent.
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Not exactly, Christopher. It is the atheist who demands proof. I am reminded of the famous quotation, 'For those of us who believe in God, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough.'
"For example wouldn’t you like to know for sure that the heart surgeon that is about to operate on you has actually been to medical school and that his claim of competency isn’t just a fantasy?"
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Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager? Basically, it says that if you DO NOT BELIEVE in God and have no faith in Him, and you are right, then you have lost nothing. Similarly, if I BELIEVE in God and have faith in Him, and I, too, am wrong, I have, also, lost nothing. However, if I BELIEVE that God exists and have faith in Him, and I am ultimately right, then I receive the gifts that are promised to me in the Bible (salvation), which, BTW, has been proven (by secular archaeologists and scientists) to be historically/textually accurate and archaeologically consistent.
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From a logical standpoint, there is no way to convince me that God exists, short of Him appearing before me out of nowhere and proclaiming He is God.
If that happens, then I'll believe that God exists.
Still, I would have many questions. Of course, I'd ask the obvious 'why are we here' question.
But I'd have more. Lots more.
Why? Because I don't understand Him, and I don't think I find man's interpretation of Him credible.
Especially since no one can agree about what He said.
There, that's in pretty basic, simple-Simon terms. (I broke it down Barney-style for you, whatsupyall
)
If that happens, then I'll believe that God exists.
Still, I would have many questions. Of course, I'd ask the obvious 'why are we here' question.
But I'd have more. Lots more.
Why? Because I don't understand Him, and I don't think I find man's interpretation of Him credible.
Especially since no one can agree about what He said.
There, that's in pretty basic, simple-Simon terms. (I broke it down Barney-style for you, whatsupyall
)OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
This may blow ya mind
We cant prove that God does exist or doesnt. And heres another thought, Maybe the reason why we cant see "God" is because it exists on a dimensional level that is beyond our human senses. My friend and I had a discussion about this. I though one of his theories was very interesting. He said that te reason that we can't see "God" is because it exists on a dimensional level that is beyond our human senses due to speed.
For example, we percieve and experience our physical world through the interactions of sight, smell, sight, and sound. Four dimensions. We can throw in "time" as a fifth dimension. But all our physical senses have limitations. for instance, we can't see a flower bloom because its too slow for us to be aware of it. From our perspective, time appears to move slower for the flower than it is for us. This also applies to the fact that we can only hear sounds at certain frequencies. Animals can hear sounds we can't. Human beings can't hear extremely low sounds and extremely high sounds. You can say these sounds exist beyond our dimension of physical experience like the flower exists in its own dimension of time. Now here's the part I thought was most interesting. Using Einstein's theory of Relativity, Time to an object going at light speed from Earth is slower than time going on Earth. Going at light speed in away can transcend the time dimension in the human universe. The faster an object moves through space/time, the harder it is to see to us. For example since the speed of light is at 186,000 miles/second, it can go to different locations on the Earth in mere seconds. We wouldnt see it. But light can be in all those different locations at once because of the extremely high speed. From this information, my friend theorized that God or the cosmic mind is beyond our dimension plane because its moving or vibrating at an infinitely high rate. Therefore we cant see it. Since God or the Cosmic Mind moves or vibrates at this infinitely hight rate, it can be at all places at once.
Theoretically, you can say because of this quality, the godhead can transcend our dimension into other dimensions beyond our plane of reality and awareness.
We cant prove that God does exist or doesnt. And heres another thought, Maybe the reason why we cant see "God" is because it exists on a dimensional level that is beyond our human senses. My friend and I had a discussion about this. I though one of his theories was very interesting. He said that te reason that we can't see "God" is because it exists on a dimensional level that is beyond our human senses due to speed.
For example, we percieve and experience our physical world through the interactions of sight, smell, sight, and sound. Four dimensions. We can throw in "time" as a fifth dimension. But all our physical senses have limitations. for instance, we can't see a flower bloom because its too slow for us to be aware of it. From our perspective, time appears to move slower for the flower than it is for us. This also applies to the fact that we can only hear sounds at certain frequencies. Animals can hear sounds we can't. Human beings can't hear extremely low sounds and extremely high sounds. You can say these sounds exist beyond our dimension of physical experience like the flower exists in its own dimension of time. Now here's the part I thought was most interesting. Using Einstein's theory of Relativity, Time to an object going at light speed from Earth is slower than time going on Earth. Going at light speed in away can transcend the time dimension in the human universe. The faster an object moves through space/time, the harder it is to see to us. For example since the speed of light is at 186,000 miles/second, it can go to different locations on the Earth in mere seconds. We wouldnt see it. But light can be in all those different locations at once because of the extremely high speed. From this information, my friend theorized that God or the cosmic mind is beyond our dimension plane because its moving or vibrating at an infinitely high rate. Therefore we cant see it. Since God or the Cosmic Mind moves or vibrates at this infinitely hight rate, it can be at all places at once.
Theoretically, you can say because of this quality, the godhead can transcend our dimension into other dimensions beyond our plane of reality and awareness.
And, BTW, it's obvious that we all will be provided proof.
Honestly, I can wait for the proof I am speaking of.
The theists really do have the best option:
If they're right, they go to heaven.
If they're wrong, they just get the same thing we all get...whatever it is.
Unfortunately, to be a theist, you have to believe (or pretend to believe) in something that cannot be proven in life.
Honestly, I can wait for the proof I am speaking of.
The theists really do have the best option:
If they're right, they go to heaven.
If they're wrong, they just get the same thing we all get...whatever it is.
Unfortunately, to be a theist, you have to believe (or pretend to believe) in something that cannot be proven in life.
"Why? Because I don't understand Him, and I don't think I find man's interpretation of Him credible."
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Do not fret, VAKEMP, my friend. You are in good company. The Pharisees, the Sadduccees and the Jews, who lived during the time of Jesus, and witnessed many of His miracles and teachings, didn't believe Jesus Christ was God either..............so they killed Him. However, I am sure you simply dismiss the death of Jesus (for your obvious sins of self-congratulations, arrogance and intellectual pride) as simply another myth anyway. What do you care, right?
><>
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Do not fret, VAKEMP, my friend. You are in good company. The Pharisees, the Sadduccees and the Jews, who lived during the time of Jesus, and witnessed many of His miracles and teachings, didn't believe Jesus Christ was God either..............so they killed Him. However, I am sure you simply dismiss the death of Jesus (for your obvious sins of self-congratulations, arrogance and intellectual pride) as simply another myth anyway. What do you care, right?
><>
"We cant prove that God does exist or doesnt."
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OldSchool,
I have said this already many times on other threads, 'If there is a God, and He encompasses the universe, is it possible that he would work in ways that are beyond us?' Is that possible? All knowledge cannot be ascertained by logic and experiment. There are things that exist that cannot be quantified, tested in some lab or put in a jar, much to the dismay of many scientists and atheists. Period.
><>
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OldSchool,
I have said this already many times on other threads, 'If there is a God, and He encompasses the universe, is it possible that he would work in ways that are beyond us?' Is that possible? All knowledge cannot be ascertained by logic and experiment. There are things that exist that cannot be quantified, tested in some lab or put in a jar, much to the dismay of many scientists and atheists. Period.
><>
inspector,
I most certainly do not dismiss the death of Jesus Christ.
When I read the obituaries, I don't doubt that the people listed have died. I know that people die. That can be proven.
self-congratulations:
I do not claim to be superior to anyone. I never said I was right and you were wrong.
arrogance:
When did I ever claim to be you intellectual superior? When did I do it in an overbearing manner? You want to see an example of arrogance, the best example I know of is one of your fellow theists. That's right, good 'ole whatsupyall. Oh, is it a sin? Did you inform whatsupyall of this on a public forum also?
intellectual-pride:
You're right, I am an intellect. At least in the sense that I'm rational.
I do not claim to be smarter than you. I do not claim to be better than you. Several times have I made it clear that I do not think less of theists because they have different beliefs than me. In fact, I have stated that I admire them for their proper ways...for their 'pursuit of perfection'.
In approximately one month, your tone has changed from patience to subtle insults. At first I appreciated and valued your opinion. I thought of you as a good role model for proper debate.
Your most recent remarks have changed that.
'Tis a shame, really.
I most certainly do not dismiss the death of Jesus Christ.
When I read the obituaries, I don't doubt that the people listed have died. I know that people die. That can be proven.
self-congratulations:
I do not claim to be superior to anyone. I never said I was right and you were wrong.
arrogance:
When did I ever claim to be you intellectual superior? When did I do it in an overbearing manner? You want to see an example of arrogance, the best example I know of is one of your fellow theists. That's right, good 'ole whatsupyall. Oh, is it a sin? Did you inform whatsupyall of this on a public forum also?
intellectual-pride:
You're right, I am an intellect. At least in the sense that I'm rational.
I do not claim to be smarter than you. I do not claim to be better than you. Several times have I made it clear that I do not think less of theists because they have different beliefs than me. In fact, I have stated that I admire them for their proper ways...for their 'pursuit of perfection'.
In approximately one month, your tone has changed from patience to subtle insults. At first I appreciated and valued your opinion. I thought of you as a good role model for proper debate.
Your most recent remarks have changed that.
'Tis a shame, really.
"In approximately one month, your tone has changed from patience to subtle insults. At first I appreciated and valued your opinion. I thought of you as a good role model for proper debate."
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I appear insulting only to those whom biblical evidence clashes with their presuppositions. As a Christian, it is frustrating when someone, like yourself in this particlular example, says, "...........short of Him appearing before me out of nowhere and proclaiming He is God. If that happens, then I'll believe that God exists." Well, friend, when Jesus DOES appear before you, it will be too late. This stuff (Christianity) ain't imaginary. The time for preparation (faith) is now. Christianity is not easy. The Bible does not gurantee a problem-free existence. There are times to be patient and there are times to be firm.
><>
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I appear insulting only to those whom biblical evidence clashes with their presuppositions. As a Christian, it is frustrating when someone, like yourself in this particlular example, says, "...........short of Him appearing before me out of nowhere and proclaiming He is God. If that happens, then I'll believe that God exists." Well, friend, when Jesus DOES appear before you, it will be too late. This stuff (Christianity) ain't imaginary. The time for preparation (faith) is now. Christianity is not easy. The Bible does not gurantee a problem-free existence. There are times to be patient and there are times to be firm.
><>