burden of proof and existence of god

[whatsupyall]

Look, you're completely ignoring what the definition
of a theory is. If you continue to ignore *basic* definitions you
don't know what you're arguing about. You're the one yelling at
everyone to define things, then why do you ignore those definitions
that they give you? Because you're either reluctant to accept that
your posts are utterly incoherent yelling or you're stalling for time
within your tiny little head. As I said, signs of senility, old
man. Congrats to you.

******Im not ignoring the definition, dont FALSELY accuse me just because I said evolution is "Just a theory", then you SPECULATE and GUESS that maybe I dont know what Im talking about, but I do, SO YOUR PREDICTION IS WRONG, try again child...****


------------------------------------------------------------------------

*rolls eyes* Yes, duh. What the helll does humans having no intelligence have with ID? You're so messed
up.


*******Duh, intelligent designer? what about us? Dont we have intelligence too? Duh...*****

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, suppose we evaluate the noah's ark to see if
it would fit as a theory. If the flood really did create the fossil
record then the fossils would all have to be of the same age. But
it's not. Pretty weak.

******Noah's ark is a parable, like what Jesus said "It is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of God". And an idiot like you will say "O my goodness, that cannot be proven scientifically!" Of course not, it is a parable you piece of monkey_____.******
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It has no evidence. Don't try to dispute why an idea
has to have physical evidence to count as a scientific theory. And
stop asking what physical is, we've told you more than enough times
and you've ignored all of them.

*****YOU HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHAT PHYSICAL IS, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, LET US LIE AND SAY YOU HAVE, BUT YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MY POSTS CONCERNING IT, NONE HAS, WHY? IS IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO ANSWER FOR IT? THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.....******


------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. Go open a book of physics, chemistry, or biology
to find out what they are. I can't post it here, lest Porfiry kill me
for overloading sciforums memory.

**** You cant post it here because you know that you will loose the argument when you post it, because your in my game, I know what to say next, and you refuse and MAKES UP EXCUSES...Just admit it, you have no basis in your argument...POST IT OR SHUT UP AND STOP WHINING...******

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Good job teaching false science in high schools, if that's what you do for a living. Now why don't you ask me to define science? And define the definition of science? And define the definition of the definition of science? And define definition? Stop stalling and get over it.

*****False science in high schools? THIS "FALSE" CATHOLIC HIGH SCHOOL HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THE TOP HIGH SCHOOLS IN UNITED STATES, NOT EVERYONE IS QUALIFIED, YOUR IGNORANT BUTT WONT PROBABLY MAKE IT IN (or u just cant afford it with your broke butt ).... 99% OF THE UNIVERSITIES IN UNITED STATES ARE FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS, FROM HARVARD, TO PRINCETON, TO UCDAVIS, I HAVE NOT HEARD OF ONE UNIVERSITY FOUNDED BY AN ATHEIST, NOT EVEN ONE....YOU CHILDREN GET YOUR EDUCATION FROM US...100% OF PRESIDENTS ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD AND ARE UC GRADS, LEARNED ALL ABOUT PHYSICS AND THEORIES AND ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD, RECOGNIZING THE ORDER AND DESIGN OF NATURE. NOT LIKE AN IDIOT WHO THINK THE ORDER OF NATURE IS "CHAOS", STUPID. SO DONT EVEN DARE SAY THAT...********

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cars, computers, and stereos are not alive and are not considered to have much to do with intelligent design or evolution. Or this debate. They're as relevant as fuzzy pink elephants (who brought it up anyway? Do you all have some elephant fetish or something? You're all weird.). There is absolutely no proof of intelligent design save religious texts. There is the immense fossil record for the theory of evolution.

******Stupid kid.. Cars and technologies have nothing to do with intelligent design? Do you know what the word "Intelligent" means? READ WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED DUMMY BEFORE MAKING A COMMENT OK, THINK BEFORE POSTING SOMETHING...(We are created in the image of God, what good is it for God to reveal himself to humans if we are bnot valuable, THAT IS THE CLAIM IN WHICH YOU CANNOT FLAW, OR EVEN SCIENCE, BUT SCIENCE ONLY PROVES IT TO BE TRUE EVEN THE MORE...)******

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moreover, statistics show (I'm serious, I have them right here in my grubby little paws) that the less education you have, the more you are likely to believe creationism to be a scientific theory.

******IF MANY TESTIFIED GOD EXIST, THEN YOU SAY NUMBERS DONT COUNT. IF FEW TESTIFY THAT GOD EXIST, THAT ALSO DONT QUALIFY GOD'S EXISTENCE. THEREFORE DONT POINT OUT STATISTICS AND YOUR STUPID INTERPRETATION OF IT, I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT. IF WE TALK ABOUT STATISTICS AND GENERALIZATION, ILL COOK YOU AND MAKE YOUR ATHEISM BELIEF PERISH, YOUR BELIEF IS NOTHING...******

--------------------------------------------------------------
You shouldn't believe in the theory of evolution. You should just accept it as true because of evidence that supports it. Doesn't seem like much difference, but there is a fine difference.

You do accept evolution as valid?? I thought you went for creationism...


*****THEREFORE YOU SHOULD JUST ACCEPT GOD AS TRUE TOO...WHAT DOES THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAVE THAT THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN DONT?*****


-------------------------------------------------------------

The intelligent design idea and the rest of science being taught are irrelevant. ID claims that living things were a creation of a higher intelligence, and education is the transmitting of knowledge to the growing generation. I see nothing in common.

***I dont care what you see and what you believe, Point here is= if you make a statement, BACK IT UP WITH EVIDENCE OR REASONS, OR SHUT UP....******

------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many times do we need to tell you? If we list all the theories of nature that are considered to be valid today, we would overload the sciforums memory and be murdered by Porfiry. Just flip open a book on physics, chemistry, or biology.

Children??? You are an old, grumpy man.

****NO NO NO, YOUR MAKING AN EXCUSE..ATHEIST BROUGHT IT OUT, NOW I AM ASKING THEM TO EXPLAIN IT AND LIST THEM IN SUMMARY. ATHEIST BROUGHT IT OUT, NOW FINISH WHAT YOU HAVE STARTED. STOP MAKING UP EXCUSES AND WHINING...IF YOU DO SO, I CONSIDER THIS ARGUMENT ANOTHER PROOF THAT ATHEIST HAVE NO BASIS IN THEIR ARGUMENT, AND USES "SCIENCE" AS A COVER UP FOR THEIR BELIEF.******

NOTE: AGAIN POST THEM HERE, (your making me mad and yell.), your brought it out, NOW THAT IS THE TOPIC, explain and list what are the laws of phyics and nature, SUMMARIZE THEM..Gravity, earthquake, wind, tornado, etc. LIST THEM CHILD....

 

[Xelios]

"Duh, intelligent designer? what about us? Dont we have intelligence too? Duh..."

That's just plain stupid whatsup. Thats like saying our creator must have had an appendix because we have one.

"Noah's ark is a parable, like what Jesus said "It is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of God". And an idiot like you will say "O my goodness, that cannot be proven scientifically!" Of course not, it is a parable you piece of monkey_____"

If it's a parable and never happened how come 80% of the Christians in the world claim it did and that there's scientific evidence for it?

"YOU HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHAT PHYSICAL IS, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, LET US LIE AND SAY YOU HAVE, BUT YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MY POSTS CONCERNING IT, NONE HAS, WHY? IS IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO ANSWER FOR IT? THATS WHAT I THOUGHT...."

Physical is something that exists and can interact with our world. Ie. Energy, matter, antimatter etc.

"You cant post it here because you know that you will loose the argument when you post it, because your in my game, I know what to say next, and you refuse and MAKES UP EXCUSES...Just admit it, you have no basis in your argument...POST IT OR SHUT UP AND STOP WHINING"

No, we will not post it. It would be a huge waste of our time because it would fall on deaf ears. We have pointed you to a place where it is posted, now it's your job to go and look at it. You're the one who has no basis in his arguement. We have told you where you can find a list of the laws of nature, you refuse to go look, ergo you are either a lazy sob or have no interest in the laws of nature and are simply posting that question to avoid answering ours.

"IF WE TALK ABOUT STATISTICS AND GENERALIZATION, ILL COOK YOU AND MAKE YOUR ATHEISM BELIEF PERISH, YOUR BELIEF IS NOTHING"

Spoken like a true arrogant, ignorant and closed minded asshole.

"THEREFORE YOU SHOULD JUST ACCEPT GOD AS TRUE TOO...WHAT DOES THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAVE THAT THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN DONT"

Evidence.

"I dont care what you see and what you believe, Point here is= if you make a statement, BACK IT UP WITH EVIDENCE OR REASONS, OR SHUT UP...."

We have been, you're the one who needs to take his own advice.

"AGAIN POST THEM HERE, (your making me mad and yell.), your brought it out, NOW THAT IS THE TOPIC, explain and list what are the laws of phyics and nature, SUMMARIZE THEM..Gravity, earthquake, wind, tornado, etc. LIST THEM CHILD...."

Are you on crack? First of all, earthquakes and tornados are not laws of nature. I'll post a few just to humor you whatsup, but it will be your job to find the rest if you're interested, I have no interest in wasting my time on your ignorant ass again.

Physics:

Laws of Thermodynamics
The Uncertainty Principle
Anthropic Principle
Ampere's Law
Bell's Inequality
Bode's Law
Boyle's Law
Blackbody Radiation
Equilivance Principle
Kepler's Laws
Kerr Effect
Kohlrausche's Law
Kelvin Effect
Relativity Principle
Roche Limit
Special Relativity

There that's all I'll post. Here's more of the list of physics laws: http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/.

Have fun.

 

[Maia]

Whatsup, just admit it...you're senile. Which nursing home are you typing these posts in?

 

[Slacker47]

Genesis states that God created everything in seven days. This means that dinosaurs, trylobytes, and even many strains of bacteria do not exist. Are you trying to tell me that these things are all imaginary tools of science? If so, go to a science museum because there is more proof of dinosaurs than there is of God.

 

[Slacker47]

Whatsupyall,

False science in high schools? THIS "FALSE" CATHOLIC HIGH SCHOOL HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THE TOP HIGH SCHOOLS IN UNITED STATES, NOT EVERYONE IS QUALIFIED, YOUR IGNORANT BUTT WONT PROBABLY MAKE IT IN (or u just cant afford it with your broke butt ).... 99% OF THE UNIVERSITIES IN UNITED STATES ARE FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS, FROM HARVARD, TO PRINCETON, TO UCDAVIS, I HAVE NOT HEARD OF ONE UNIVERSITY FOUNDED BY AN ATHEIST, NOT EVEN ONE....YOU CHILDREN GET YOUR EDUCATION FROM US...100% OF PRESIDENTS ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD AND ARE UC GRADS, LEARNED ALL ABOUT PHYSICS AND THEORIES AND ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD, RECOGNIZING THE ORDER AND DESIGN OF NATURE. NOT LIKE AN IDIOT WHO THINK THE ORDER OF NATURE IS "CHAOS", STUPID. SO DONT EVEN DARE SAY THAT..

First of all, private schools are the top schools because richer people tend to be able to better educate their children at a younger age. These children grow up with a better education in the Catholic schools only because their family can afford it. Do you realize that this is discrimination for those with less money? Don't you believe that God created everyone equal, or are you arguing for the sake of being right? Second, 99% of the universities are founded by Christians, but what percentage of the United States was Chrisitian and could afford to build a school at the times when these schools were constructed. Do not think for one minute that building schools makes God exist. Thirdly, the Presidents have all been Christian believers, but how many have declared war on other countries? Does that sound very Godly to you? The only reason that an atheist (or even an agnostic person) has not been elected president is because Christians have taught themselves that these people are immoral and evil which bring their country to despair. Well, this is a very judgemental belief of which you should be ashamed.

I truly resent the statement about affording to go to a Catholic school. There are many Christians who cannot afford to go to Catholic schools. So, does that mean that they are lesser than you? Many protestants do not believe in Catholic values and do not go to the schools either. So, what shall become of them. This is a truly sick thing to behold. You have just rejected the morals that our country is founded on. I hope, in retrospect, that you apoligize to all of America for becoming such a snob. I respect that your opinion is different than his, but you have serious moral issues to deal with. Christians are supposed to be humble. What happened to you?

IF WE TALK ABOUT STATISTICS AND GENERALIZATION, ILL COOK YOU AND MAKE YOUR ATHEISM BELIEF PERISH, YOUR BELIEF IS NOTHING...******

Where do I begin?

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Xelios

That's just plain stupid whatsup. Thats like saying our creator must have had an appendix because we have one.

No, God is Spirit- John. Say it right...

We based God's existence as we oberved the effect which is caused by intelligence. The same evidence you use for the existence of blackhole, you cannot see it, but you can see the effects of it...

Some atheist would say “Intelligence is an idea of human concept, if you were to take it out of human concept, then there must be infinite numbers of Gods who perform creation of the universe, and there is no evidence that human life existed then.” This is a ridiculous argument, an out of topic, nobody is talking about God’s lifespan, mortality, or his personal taste, what’s the next question atheist will post? That God is vegetarian and prefers Calvin Klein underwear? The topic above is intelligence, which is proven, how did you expect a mortal intelligence could create the universe? Earth is 15 billion years old; use your brain if you have one, no mortals can live that long? God is immortal. You make a claim of “chance” and I proved your claim false by observation & study; I make a claim of “Intelligence” (God), why don’t you try to prove “intelligence” false instead of maneuvering and changing topic? I know why you wont try, because you cant! Fact is intelligence is proven. This proves a pretty thick slice of God: some designing intelligence great enough to account for all the design in the universe & the human mind. If that’s not God, what is it? Steven Spielberg? At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. We have a logical explanation of the universe, its called God. But atheist doesn’t like it because they can’t handle the truth.

Originally posted by Xelios

If it's a parable and never happened how come 80% of the Christians in the world claim it did and that there's scientific evidence for it?

Why do you use statistics as an example? And when I do, you would say "Oh numbers doesnt count", well then, lets leave "Numbers" out of the convo then, after all they dont count according to you....

Originally posted by Xelios



Physical is something that exists and can interact with our world. Ie. Energy, matter, antimatter etc. ?

Tell me, is God non-physical? If so, how? Explain (I bet you will skip this part)....

Originally posted by Xelios

"


"THEREFORE YOU SHOULD JUST ACCEPT GOD AS TRUE TOO...WHAT DOES THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAVE THAT THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN DONT"

Evidence.?

You based your evidence of evoolution accordng to microbacterias evolving, and now you assume the entire body parts evolve (Note; you ASSUMED and GUESSED). Thats a speculation for that part, THUS GUESSING IS NOT SCIENCE, therefore it remains THEORY of science, because there is no EVIDENCE that one species changed to another. Now I do believe in evolution through common sense, that things and animals alike evolve...Again I BELIEVE, as I also do believe in God....There is tons of evidence for intelligent design, it is everywhere, the same way with microorganism evolving....But we cannot demonstrate proof that God created the universe because we did not exist when that took place, in the same way you have no evidence that one species changed to another (for that would take millions of years)..Both evidence are testable, microbacteria is testable, and so is intelligent design.

Originally posted by Xelios



We have been, you're the one who needs to take his own advice..?

Very difficult to debate with liars....

Originally posted by Xelios


Are you on crack? First of all, earthquakes and tornados are not laws of nature. I'll post a few just to humor you whatsup, but it will be your job to find the rest if you're interested, I have no interest in wasting my time on your ignorant ass again.

Physics:

Laws of Thermodynamics
The Uncertainty Principle
Anthropic Principle
Ampere's Law
Bell's Inequality
Bode's Law
Boyle's Law
Blackbody Radiation
Equilivance Principle
Kepler's Laws
Kerr Effect
Kohlrausche's Law
Kelvin Effect
Relativity Principle
Roche Limit
Special Relativity

There that's all I'll post. Here's more of the list of physics laws: http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/.

Have fun.

Thats good, that is all I need to hear...

NOW SINCE SCIENTIST PEEPS HAVE LABELED THEM, I TAKE IT THAT THEY LEARNED HOW THEY WORK....
SO IF SCIENCE CLAIMED THAT SUCH "LAWS" ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EXISTING LIFE FORMS.....THEN PLEASE, WHY NOT KINDLY DEMONSTRATE IT, CREATE LIFE FORMS TO PROVE IT? ARE YOU GOING TO SAY "WELL WE HAVE NOT FOUND THAT LAW RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFE FORMS". IF SO, THEN DONT SAY "LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFE FORM", WHEN IT DOESNT! AGAIN IF YOU CLAIM IT DOES, DEMONSTRATE IT, CREATE LIFE FORMS, AND PROVE IT, IF YOU CANT THEN DONT MAKE FALSE CLAIM, JUST SAY "WE DONT KNOW" AND SHUT UP....PERIOD...



THIS IS BACK TO TOPIC NUMBER 1, PROVE YOUR CLAIM, OR SHUT UP...

 

[(Q)]

Slacker

the Presidents have all been Christian believers

Please note: some presidents appear more than once due to source discrepancies or changes in faith.

Episcopalian:

George Washington
James Madison
James Monroe
William Henry Harrison
John Tyler
Zachary Taylor
Franklin Pierce
Chester A. Arthur
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Gerald Ford
George H. W. Bush

Presbyterian:

Andrew Jackson
James Knox Polk
Ulysses S Grant
James Buchanan
Grover Cleveland
Benjamin Harrison
Woodrow Wilson
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Ronald Reagan

Methodist:

James Knox Polk
Ulysses S Grant
Rutherford B. Hayes
William McKinley
George W. Bush

Baptist:

Warren G. Harding
Harry S. Truman
Jimmy Carter
William Jefferson Clinton

Unitarian:

John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Millard Fillmore
William Howard Taft

Disciples of Christ:

James A. Garfield
Lyndon Baines Johnson

No specific denomination:

Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson

Dutch Reformed:

Martin Van Buren
Theodore Roosevelt

Quaker:

Herbert Hoover
Richard M. Nixon

Congregationalist:

Calvin Coolidge

Catholic:

John F. Kennedy

 

[Maia]

Catholic high school!? Even if I were the only son of Bill Gates I would not choose some crummy Catholic high school over nonreligious high schools.

Whatsupyall...is it that you just crave 'moral victories' so much as to make them out of thin air, or is it that you hate to admit that you're too scientifically illiterate to open a science book? Tell me....this greatly fascinates me. Oh, and do something about your senility. Please

If we told you to kindly demonstrate the power of your god by creating a life form out of thin air, would you do it for us? Either demonstrate by creating a life form or just shut up(AWESOME QUOTE!! From whatsupyall's live concert).

Ok, I will post some examples of scientific theories that are held to be valid as of now.

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle
Einstein's Theory of Relativity (Special, General)
Theory of Evolution

There are tons more but let's discuss just these for now. Go for it.

 

[Maia]

for the millionth time HERE it is

Just for you whatsupyall, since you're such a special old man...here it is for the bizillionth time...

Physical: Consisting of stimuli for any one of the five senses(touch, sound, sight, smell, taste).

Theory: Any plausible explanation for some aspect of the natural world that is supported by reproduceable or physical evidence.

 

[Xelios]

Whatsupyall

"We based God's existence as we oberved the effect which is caused by intelligence. The same evidence you use for the existence of blackhole, you cannot see it, but you can see the effects of it... "

--We can detect a black hole by the radiation it gives off, but that's beside the point. You are saying the intelligence in this universe is a direct side-effect of an intelligent creator. There is neither any proof saying this must be true, neither does it make logical sense to say it must be true. It could be true, but it could not, so it's not an effective arguement at all.

"The topic above is intelligence, which is proven, how did you expect a mortal intelligence could create the universe? Earth is 15 billion years old; use your brain if you have one, no mortals can live that long?"

--How did you expect any intelligence created the universe? As for no mortals living that long, how do you know? There could very well be life on some other world that can live this long.

"You make a claim of “chance” and I proved your claim false by observation & study; I make a claim of “Intelligence” (God), why don’t you try to prove “intelligence” false instead of maneuvering and changing topic? "

--You haven't proven probability wrong, but for the sake of arguement lets pretend you did. What would it take for me to disprove the ID theory you put forth? Intelligence obviously exists, as we are intelligent, but this certainly does not mean an intelligent being created the universe.

We have a logical explanation of the universe, its called God. But atheist doesn’t like it because they can’t handle the truth. "

--Alright, lets examine this 'logical explanation'. A being that exists beyond time and outside of our universe decided to create an entire universe possibly infinite in size for no apparent reason. He then decided to create life on one planet orbiting one star among trillions, again for no apparent reason. Then he punishes the rest of humanity because Adam and Eve exercised their curiosity, a trait he gave them, by eating the fruit of knowledge. He then does not bother to interact with humanity for the rest of it's existance, save to supposedly send his son down here to 'save us from our sins'. All this has exactly no evidence or proofs. Yeah, that sounds pretty logical to me... :bugeye:

"Why do you use statistics as an example? And when I do, you would say "Oh numbers doesnt count", well then, lets leave "Numbers" out of the convo then, after all they dont count according to you.... "

--Just curious, could you point me to the thread in which I said numbers and statistics don't count? Thanks.

"Tell me, is God non-physical? If so, how? Explain (I bet you will skip this part).... "

--Yes he is, because he exists in human thought. We have thought him up to explain things we cannot or did not understand, and so he does not physically exist outside our thoughts.

"You based your evidence of evoolution accordng to microbacterias evolving, and now you assume the entire body parts evolve (Note; you ASSUMED and GUESSED). "

--Maybe I do assume and guess in some places, you do the same with ID theory. You assume intelligence had to be created by intelligence, and you guess that God exists.

"Thats a speculation for that part, THUS GUESSING IS NOT SCIENCE, therefore it remains THEORY of science, because there is no EVIDENCE that one species changed to another"

--You're right, macro evolution is still a theory. However micro evolution has been proven to occur. And if micro evolution occurs, the logical conclusion would be that macro evolution is possible as well.

"There is tons of evidence for intelligent design, it is everywhere, "

--Could you point out 5 of these evidences in detail?

"SO IF SCIENCE CLAIMED THAT SUCH "LAWS" ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EXISTING LIFE FORMS"

--Stop typing in caps. No one has claimed the laws we know have created life. We don't yet know exactly how life started out in the very beginning. We know how amino acids are created, perhaps in a few decades we will know how life itself formed out of these acids.

"IF SO, THEN DONT SAY "LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFE FORM", "

--I don't believe I ever said that. While the laws of physics undoubtably played a large part in the formation of life, they are by no means a complete list of laws, nor are they the only factor in the formation of life.

"IF YOU CANT THEN DONT MAKE FALSE CLAIM, JUST SAY "WE DONT KNOW" "

--I've said that several times. You need to get your head out of your ass and read people's posts.

"THIS IS BACK TO TOPIC NUMBER 1, PROVE YOUR CLAIM, OR SHUT UP..."

--Alright then, I challenge you right now to prove an intelligent creator exists and created this universe. I want you to clearly list the evidences you have in a neat little list. As you say, prove your claim or shut up.

 

[Phaedrus]

presidents and christians

100% OF PRESIDENTS ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD

This is one of the most absurd claims I have ever heard. This is completely false. What is even better though, is that most of our founders were not christians. Since you keep asking for proof, proof and more proof, here you go.

It is true that many of the presidents have been christian, however I would argue that Jefferson and Washington were deists, and not a christian. I will quote:

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a christian in the sense that he believed in the moral teachings of Jesus. He did not believe in any of the supernatural parts however. Go out and buy the book, the Jefferson bible and read it. Jefferson took a bible and edited out the parts that he did not believe in, or that he did not belief were the "true" teachings of Jesus. Basically you get a secular morality book.

Now let us get into Washington.
"In 1793 Washington thus summarized the religious philosophy he was evolving during his Mount Vernon years. How happenings would "terminate is known only to the great ruler of events; and confiding in his wisdom and goodness, we may safely trust the issue to him, without perplexing ourselves to seek for that which is beyond human ken, only taking care to perform the parts assigned to us in a way that reason and our own conscience approve of." George Washington was, like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, a deist." Thomas Flexner. The Forge of Experience. Vol. 1; Little, Brown & Company; pps 244-245.

Here you can see that Washington rested most of his beliefs on reason, which is why he was a deist. By the way, a deist is not a christian if anyone is wondering.

"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical." George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798. From "The Washington papers" ed. by Saul Padover

How about James Madison?

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits
it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect."
James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1,1774. Edwin S. Gaustad. Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation. San Francisco:Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.

Wow, so it seems that this country was not founded and is not based in christianity. Who can believe that whatsupyall was wrong? 100% christians......I think not.

Most of the founders were not christian. Thomas Paine for example was one of the most influential men with the population then, and he hated christianity. He felt that it brought around wars and hatred. He in fact wrote a book called "The Age of Reason" on his feelings and arguments against christianity. Paine was the writer of the popular booklet "Common Sense."

"The Christian religion begins with a dream and ends with a murder." Thomas Paine.

You can see that the intellectual giant (Paine) did not believe in christianity to any extent.

Benjamin Franklin seems to agree. "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." Benjamin Franklin.

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." Benjamin Franklin. Poor Richard , 1758.

Here I quote from a textbook:

"At the time of its Founding, the United States seemed to be an infertile ground for religion. Many of the nation's leaders - include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin - were not Christians, did not accept the authority of the Bible, and were hostile to organized religion. The attitude of the general public was one of apathy: in 1776, only 5 percent of the population were participating members of churches." Ian Robertson. Sociology , 3rd edition, Worth Publishing Inc.: New York, 1987, page 410.

There is the proof you want, cited and everything.

- Phaedrus
----------------------------------------------------------------
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free."
-Michelangelo

 

[whatsupyall]

Re: for the millionth time HERE it is

Originally posted by Maia

Physical: Consisting of stimuli for any one of the five senses(touch, sound, sight, smell, taste)..

nonphysical

adj : lacking substance or reality; incapable of being touched or seen; "that intangible thing--the soul"

Science states that there are no limits to splitting an atom, singularity states that if all the spaces are removed, the whole universe can be as small as a pencil...Currently speaking, there is no limit to splitting an atom, our current technology can only detect subatomic particles under 300,000,000 m/s, so whats beyond that is Non-physical? In being so, does it mean its a myth? We cannot detect beyond 200,000,000 few years back, does it then make it nonphysical? therefore a myth? IT WAS NON-PHYSICAL BEFORE, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT BECAME PHYSICAL? Was blackhole non-physical before, then all of a sudden it became physical?

Originally posted by Maia

Theory: Any plausible explanation for some aspect of the natural world that is supported by reproduceable or physical evidence.

What about the "force" that brings someone to life, which we call a soul...Is that non-physical? If so does it mean YOU are nonphhysical? You are living, an "undetectable" invisible energy keeps you alive, if that is non-physical, is it then a myth?
What about the emotions that drives us to do "right" and "wrong" (generally speaking), what are those emotions which we call "spirit"? What do you call them? "Parascratchomybutto particles"? Is that the name you call it? Did you name it after you scratched your butt last night? Have you detected it? If so demonstrate it, can you "grab" it and place it in someone's body to bring them to life?
If ""emotions" that drive you to do good and evil;spirits (societies view) cannot be detected, then emotions are non-physical, if emotions are non-physical, then it is a myth (according to little children), and in this case, God is also a myth....

In summary, life is a myth, emotion is a myth, God is a myth........

NEED REALITY CHECK?

MAIA, I BET YOU WILL SKIP THIS PART AND CHANGE TOPIC, LOL. IF SO IM NOT SURPRISED..

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

What about the "force" that brings someone to life, which we call a soul...Is that non-physical?

No such force has been detected. A soul is just speculation.

If so does it mean YOU are nonphhysical? You are living, an "undetectable" invisible energy keeps you alive, if that is non-physical, is it then a myth?

No it is not a myth it is human fantasy.

What about the emotions that drives us to do "right" and "wrong" (generally speaking), what are those emotions which we call "spirit"? What do you call them?

The normal operation of the brain.

If ""emotions" that drive you to do good and evil;spirits (societies view) cannot be detected, then emotions are non-physical, if emotions are non-physical, then it is a myth (according to little children), and in this case, God is also a myth....

Emotions are generated by neuro-chemical activities in the brain. These have been demonstrated by countless clinical experiments and investigations. Emotions are entirely physical.

You are right though, if you cannot show that a soul exists then who cares if a god exists or not. Without a soul an afterlife has no meaning, and without an afterlife then the concepts of heaven and hell are equally meaningless, leading to the conclusion that gods are irrelevant.

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Xelios
Whatsupyall

--We can detect a black hole by the radiation it gives off, but that's beside the point. You are saying the intelligence in this universe is a direct side-effect of an intelligent creator. There is neither any proof saying this must be true, neither does it make logical sense to say it must be true. It could be true, but it could not, so it's not an effective arguement at all.

The same can be said about evolution...LOL .(Xelios, have u noticed I flawed each and every single words you said...LOL..stay in school ok?)

Originally posted by Xelios
[
--How did you expect any intelligence created the universe? As for no mortals living that long, how do you know? There could very well be life on some other world that can live this long..

O my god, the famous one and only atheist argument...Like giant purple squid monkey? LOL, no comment....

Originally posted by Xelios
[

--You haven't proven probability wrong,

Why do you reason with “chance” what doesn’t have a chance? I can claim that there’s a “chance” my mother will win the million-dollar lottery, even if winning is slim, fact is there is still a chance. One evidence to support my claim is that demonstration made it possible, she won the lucky 3 few times, other lottery games, & fact is many won it before. Lottery is accessible right now, there is no reason I shouldn’t be able to provide proof of “chance”. This claim of “chance” is evident. Another example of chance is competition; there is a chance that Evander Holyfield could regain the 4th heavyweight title considering the fact that there are others who has done it before, such as Muhammad Ali. This claim of “chance” is evident as well. But why do atheist make the claim that “earthquake, lightning, wind, and hurricane or any physics” have the chance of gathering atoms and molecules together then create a living breathing life form when the fact is no evidence supports such claim. Again, for one to make a claim of “chance”, one must present evidence to support the possibility…To say “series of earthquake and lightning will make me 1 million feet tall and weigh 50 trillion tons in 30 years by chance” and to say “Series of earthquake and lightning formed a living cell in a sudden gathering of atoms by chance”, is a lie, both are impossible, both doesn’t have any evidence to support the claims of possibility…
You heard them say, "slight chance is still a chance", wrong! Through scientific observation, study & demonstration, there is NO CHANCE that any physics discovered can gather atoms & molecules together then create a living-breathing cell. To use “proof less luck” or "proof less chance" as the cause is a lie; lies is NOT a scientific proof, never is & NEVER WILL. Never again say "Why say it's God's creation if we don’t know, it just means we don’t know", we do know, we know that hurricane, wind, lightning, amino acid, protons, neutrons, all chemicals, and any of earth’s natural resource through observation, study, and demonstration cannot create "cell" by itself as science have proven so. By scientific method "chance" is a lie as demonstrated, there is no chance! And intelligence in the other hand is proven. Intelligence can find cure for diseases, cause brain and heart surgery, cause breast implant, observation and study of events, solving crimes, molding artworks, creating cars, rocket space ships, television, refrigerators, etc. Intelligence is capable of creating and forming spare cartilages to replace missing ears or nose construction. Intelligence is also capable of creating living creatures off existing cells, from humans to insects (cloning). Intelligence are even beginning to discover growing a human heart like a plant. Can you provide one example of any detailed and complex form from biological to technological that are caused by a non intelligent matter; such as a cell phone forming a 2 story house through 8 years of lightning and hurricane or a Reebok running shoe cloning a pit bull through 6 years of rain and hurricane, are those claims true? No! So if an ignorant guy (atheist) would say electrons, protons, & neutrons are responsible for the creation of “cell”, say back to this ignorant guy “that’s proven impossible by science, if you think your smarter than science, then prove your claim”, he cant because it’s a lie. Electrons, protons and neutrons are accessible right now! There is no reason he shouldn’t be able to provide proof of “chance”, if he claims those are the cause of life form, then why not show us demonstration after all electrons are accessible here! I have judgment, and so do you, so don’t act like you don’t have one, be wise and normal, use your judgment. Think…. I simply don’t believe a lifeless atom which have no intelligence or will can perform creation of a complex and detailed life form, otherwise you might as well say my cellular phone formed a custom 2 story 5 bedroom house complete with doors, fireplace, windows, and toilets in 10 years of hurricane and earthquake, or my shoes shaped a sandcastle modeled after the white house in 8 years of flood and tornado, how can I disagree with that if I claim that series of earthquakes, hurricane, sunlight, and lightning gathered the atoms together, then formed and shaped it into a mitochondria, ribosome, cytoplasm, nucleus, and thousands of other parts all at once to become a living breathing cell, a detailed and complex life form?

Some atheists are desperate for lies and might say, “The word ”chance” is only intended for biology, not for technological engineering”. Listen atheist kids, the definition of “chance” is=likelihood; opportunity; possibility; accidental. Did it say biological likelihood? Or did it say biological possibility? No! Why are you making your own definition of chance? Liars. I suggest you should make your own dictionary if you are that ignorant, call it the “Ignorant Dictionary”. Biology is off nature. Cars and houses are made out of metals and wood, which is from trees and rocks, which are off nature as well. Where do u think trees and rocks come from? Planet Jupiter?

Originally posted by Xelios

--Yes he is non-physical, because he exists in human thought..

Tigers also exist in human thought, therefore tigers are non-physical?

Originally posted by Xelios


We have thought him up to explain things we cannot or did not understand.

Thats your opinion....

Originally posted by Xelios

, and so he does not physically exist outside our thoughts.

You made a claim, NOW PROVE IT, if you cant, THEN SHUT UP......

Originally posted by Xelios


--Maybe I do assume and guess in some places, you do the same with ID theory. You assume intelligence had to be created by intelligence, and you guess that God exists..

No no no, I did NOT assume that intelligence have to be created by intelligence, IT IS PROVEN...Even biological conception requires intelligence...Every complex, functioning and detailed form is an effect of intelligent cause (as observed and studied), from mechanical to biological. Reality triumphs over Lies, Fact triumphs over Opinion…

Originally posted by Xelios

--You're right, macro evolution is still a theory. However micro evolution has been proven to occur. And if micro evolution occurs, the logical conclusion would be that macro evolution is possible as well. ..

Micro evolution has been proved to occur, as much as the intelligent designer...Again Every complex, functioning and detailed form is an effect of intelligent cause...

Originally posted by Xelios


"There is tons of evidence for intelligent design, it is everywhere, "

--Could you point out 5 of these evidences in detail?..

Cloning, cars, stereos, formation of amino acids by scientist intelligence, airplanes, boats, all detailed, functioning, and ordered, want more?
We are created in the image of God, a claim yoou cannot flaw, BUT SCIENCE PROVED IT EVEN TRUE...ANY COMMENT? I BET YOU WILL SKIP THIS PART AND CHANGE TOPIC AS ALWAYS...

Originally posted by Xelios

--Alright then, I challenge you right now to prove an intelligent creator exists and created this universe. I want you to clearly list the evidences you have in a neat little list. As you say, prove your claim or shut up.

aforementioned........got brain?

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Cris
whatsup,

No such force has been detected. A soul is just speculation.

Life isnt detected? A soul is a speculation? Therfore it doesnt exist? You made the claim, now prove it...Oh you cant prove it? THEN SHUT UP...

Originally posted by Cris

No it is not a myth it is human fantasy.

It is a human fantasy just because you say so? IF SO PROVE IT...If you cant, then shut up...Otherwise Shakespeare, Queen Elizabeth, and quantum mechanics are fantasy as well... LOL..

Originally posted by Cris

The normal operation of the brain.

Emotions are generated by neuro-chemical activities in the brain. These have been demonstrated by countless clinical experiments and investigations. Emotions are entirely physical.

LOL, this have NOT been demonstrated you liar, that is a speculation, they cannot DEMONSTRATE the cause of emotion such as love, etc. STUPID, YOU ARE BASICALLY CLAIMING THAT SCIENTIST CAN MAKE A LOVE POTION..LOL, IF SO I WANT TO BUY ONE AND MAKE JLO CRAZY ABOUT ME...Your a liar (or just mistyped this)...

Originally posted by Cris

You are right though, if you cannot show that a soul exists then who cares if a god exists or not. Without a soul an afterlife has no meaning, and without an afterlife then the concepts of heaven and hell are equally meaningless, leading to the conclusion that gods are irrelevant.

A SOUL IS WHAT GIVES US LIFE AND KEEPS US ALIVE, THAT IS THE CLAIM OF CHRISTIANITY. EVERYTHING THAT LIVES HAVE A SOUL THAT GIVES IT LIFE, FROM TREES TO ANIMALS. BUT ONLY HUMANS ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, WHO SHARE HIS SPIRITUAL WAYS ( THE WAY TO DOMINATE AND BEING INDEPENDENT)...IF YOU CLAIM THAT SOUL DONT EXIST, THEN PROVE IT AND CREATE ANY LIFE FORMS, IF YOU CANT PROVE YOUR CLAIM, THEN SHUT UP......PERIOD.....

 

[Voodoo Child]

The soul is the ultimate vestigal structure, it is not ignored by the body, but no longer used by the mind.

You'd have to wonder how you could prove the soul was keeping us alive. Wouldn't you have to remove a person's soul without harming him physically to see if he dies? You can just see this written up in a journal: "...and the treatment group had their souls removed whilst their heartbeats and respiration were monitored"

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

Life isnt detected?

The topic was souls, not life.

A soul is a speculation? Therfore it doesnt exist? You made the claim, now prove it...

It was your speculation. I have nothing to prove. It was you who made the unsupported assertion that souls exist.

It is a human fantasy just because you say so?

No, but because such things as souls have never been shown to exist, or have ever been detected. Without any observation or detection the idea is no different from speculation or a fantasy.

IF SO PROVE IT...If you cant, then shut up...

Prove what? That you have a ripe imagination and can dream up invisible imaginary objects?

You introduced the idea of a soul existing and haven’t shown that such things do or can exist. Life seems to work just fine without such a dream.

You have assumed that souls exist in order to help explain another issue. Your assumption has no value if you cannot give a basis for your claim. Without showing some evidence for souls your argument is just empty words.

LOL, this have NOT been demonstrated you liar, that is a speculation, they cannot DEMONSTRATE the cause of emotion such as love, etc. STUPID, YOU ARE BASICALLY CLAIMING THAT SCIENTIST CAN MAKE A LOVE POTION..LOL, IF SO I WANT TO BUY ONE AND MAKE JLO CRAZY ABOUT ME...Your a liar (or just mistyped this)...

Here are a few references showing how the brain generates emotions. I’ll find some more for you if you like. There is little doubt in neurobiology that the brain causes emotions. I think your statements emphasize your need to be more aware of current science research and not be so ready to believe millennia old superstitions like Christianity.

Limbic System: The Center of Emotions:
http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n05/mente/limbic_i.htm

Brain functions:
http://brainmuseum.org/functions/

University of Wisconsin-Madison brain and emotions research references:
http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/emotion/index.msql?get=bios

A SOUL IS WHAT GIVES US LIFE AND KEEPS US ALIVE,

Well no, that is the job of food and water.

THAT IS THE CLAIM OF CHRISTIANITY.

Yes and we can immediately see where Christianity has gone wrong.

EVERYTHING THAT LIVES HAVE A SOUL THAT GIVES IT LIFE, FROM TREES TO ANIMALS. BUT ONLY HUMANS ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, WHO SHARE HIS SPIRITUAL WAYS ( THE WAY TO DOMINATE AND BEING INDEPENDENT)...

It’s a pretty story, but nothing more than just a story, unless you can show otherwise, rather than just making unsupported assertions.

IF YOU CLAIM THAT SOUL DONT EXIST, THEN PROVE IT

Only if you promise to prove that flying green elephants don’t exist. I’m bored with the pink ones.

 

[Xelios]

"The same can be said about evolution...LOL "

You're right, the same can be said about macro evolution, which is why it's still a theory. Well, except macro evolution makes logical sense.

"Tigers also exist in human thought, therefore tigers are non-physical? "

Alright MM, if you want to get all picky, God exists only in human thought. Happy now?

"Thats your opinion.... "

Of course it's my opinion, just as it is your opinion we were created by an intelligent designer.

"Again Every complex, functioning and detailed form is an effect of intelligent cause... "

In your opinion.

"Cloning, cars, stereos, formation of amino acids by scientist intelligence, airplanes, boats, all detailed, functioning, and ordered, want more? "

That's not what I meant. I want you to point out 5 evidences proving an intelligent designer created us. And just to clear something up, the amino acids created naturally. Scientists simply set up the experiment, the laws of nature and physics did the rest.

"We are created in the image of God, a claim yoou cannot flaw"

Since no one knows what God looks like, that claim cannot be proven or disproven. You seem to have an afinity for providing arguements that can neither be proven nor disproven, I guess you have not yet realized these make very poor arguements.

"aforementioned........got brain?"

As I thought, you've got nothing. I asked you to do one simple little thing, just write down all the proofs for an intelligent being creating us in a nice little list, and you can't even do that. In your words, "CASE CLOSED".

 

[Phaedrus]

Whatsupyall,

You keep telling other people that they are going to skip over parts of your argument because there is no response they could give (because you believe you are not flawed). I was wondering why oh why did you skip over my post?

You made the claim that 100% of the presidents are believers, and it seems I gave too much proof against this thesis. I guess next time I will have to use word that I will have to define in a later posting to you. Maybe a word like......ignoramus.

Just waiting for a "refutation" of my presidential post.

-Phaedrus
_______________________________________
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."
-Johann von Goethe

 

[Squid Vicious]

You people of course realise, that in replying to Whatisnamey at all, is merely feeding his belief that he's worth your time?