Trilairian
Registered Senior Member
According to Mormon doctrine he wanted to be the savior instead of Jesus, to sit in the throne of god(Jesus one of the three head gods), and in effort to persuade the spirits to sustain him instead of Jesus he proposed that he would see to it that everyone was saved in lieu of free will. Now here is what you don't know. You have it that this is what was meant when the serpent was cursed to go upon its belly, that it had lost its legs or ability to stand as a metaphor for him not to be born into a mortal body, but according to the genesis story he actually received the curse for having tempted Adam, not for having rebelled in a prior heavenly council!Nisus said:
This is fun, any Catholics want a shot concerning Catholic doctrine? Lutherins?...
Correct Good Job!Trilairian said:
Trilairian said:
That's incorrect.
We recognize that Lucifer was cursed and brought low to the ground, on top of becoming Satan, Perdition, but that we would have power to rule over him. He would bruise our heel (after being brought low to the earth and eating dust) and we would crush his head.
Bruising his head is greater than the power he has to inflict upon us, bruising our heel.
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Trilairian
Registered Senior Member
No its not. As I said, it would be something you did not know.Nisus said:
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
What a pathetic joke this is. Again you rely on fabricated references rather than the source. Again it results in little but confusion.Nisus said:
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Marlin, Nisus, do you know what Midrash is?
Trilairian said:
In that case you'll have to reference something from the Scriptures or the Prophets to back yourself up, because
"You have it that this is what was meant"
is your opinion until otherwise solidified. Or you can do what you usually do and keep your "arcane knowledge" to yourself, but! Having met us thus far, --- there must be grounds for where you conjured this idea.
But like I was saying Lucifer was already cursed after he became Satan, and Perdition, having rebelled against the First Born. This is where he was denied a Second Estate (a body)
This is our doctrine upon the subject.
And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. Abr. 3: 26
BUT! this is where he was initially cursed, from receiving a mortal body.
Abr. 3: 28
And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
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Now test this =p
D&C 131: 1
IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
What are these degrees? We know the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial are three glories, but there are
3 degrees in the Celestial also. What are these degrees?
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Consequent,
What do you want? i'm citing scriptures? you want context, ? who wrote it? or what? Quit scoffing and vocalize your desires, because I don't understand what you're saying.
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ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
I want you to undestand it.Nisus said:
I want you to have some understanding of 2nd Temple Period polemic and prose.
I want you to recognize when the writer is having Jesus quote/paraphrase the Tanach.
I want you to understand the context and meaning of the verse quoted.
In short, I want you to have some inkling of source criticism and to be somewhat more competent than an ignorant Christian apologist spouting received doctrine while pretending that they are thereby saying something of worth. That's what I want, but I'm not hopeful.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Oy veh! I would much prefer that you understand the text more and "expound upon the idea" less. Perhaps you could begin with Luke 10:18 ...Nisus said:
Okay, initially I only cited that scripture, to coincide with what I was saying about Satan rebelling in the pre-mortal existance. Attesting that even Jesus witnessed when Lucifer was cast out from heaven and became fallen, and perdition.
But--it is written, if someone will ask you to go with them 1 mile, you go with them twain!
Here we go!
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And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
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This scripture refers to the power that we have over the Devil with Faith in Christ. I.E. How we will crush his head, though he bruise our heel.
The seventy that Jesus called were commisioned to act in his name two by two they went. Healing the sick, causing the blind to see and even further casting out devils, who were subject to them through the authority given to them of Jesus, and through faith.
Jesus knew exactly what they meant when they said "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."
Of course he would know this, He was there when Lucifer was cast out from heaven, before the world was. For this reason he replied yes, ! I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven!
The Devil of all devils, was subject to the power of Christ. If Christ Himself were able to command Lucifer, then why not, can the disciples of Christ, command Satan's minions?
Jesus' statement was predicated upon His own experience.
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Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
Moses 4: 3
It's very likely that after Jesus was elected as the Messiah, that Jesus Himself carried out the decree to cast Lucifer from Heaven, since this was the will of the Father, and the power of the Father was in the Son.
Then Jesus, likely gave power unto Michael--
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:7-9
But--it is written, if someone will ask you to go with them 1 mile, you go with them twain!
Here we go!
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And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This scripture refers to the power that we have over the Devil with Faith in Christ. I.E. How we will crush his head, though he bruise our heel.
The seventy that Jesus called were commisioned to act in his name two by two they went. Healing the sick, causing the blind to see and even further casting out devils, who were subject to them through the authority given to them of Jesus, and through faith.
Jesus knew exactly what they meant when they said "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."
Of course he would know this, He was there when Lucifer was cast out from heaven, before the world was. For this reason he replied yes, ! I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven!
The Devil of all devils, was subject to the power of Christ. If Christ Himself were able to command Lucifer, then why not, can the disciples of Christ, command Satan's minions?
Jesus' statement was predicated upon His own experience.
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Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
Moses 4: 3
It's very likely that after Jesus was elected as the Messiah, that Jesus Himself carried out the decree to cast Lucifer from Heaven, since this was the will of the Father, and the power of the Father was in the Son.
Then Jesus, likely gave power unto Michael--
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:7-9
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ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
You really haven't a clue, do you? What a shame ... and what a sham!
:bugeye:
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:31
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matt. 13: 13
Back @ u
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:31
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matt. 13: 13
Back @ u
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
How very impressive: you know how to cherry-pick verses from the NT ... and you still understand nothing concerning Luke 10:18. What an embarrassment you are. Go back to Luke and try again.Nisus said:
) with such contempt?