i dont assume i know my brother works at ******** and tips go to the waitress/waiter then they CAN if they want take part of that tip and give it to the bus boys
Arrested for not Tipping
- Thread starter Orleander
- Start date
i dont assume i know my brother works at ******** and tips go to the waitress/waiter then they CAN if they want take part of that tip and give it to the bus boys
That's disgusting.
Tipping is something you do as a compliment on good service, not something you're morally obliged to do, or should be legally so.
Tipping is something you do as a compliment on good service, not something you're morally obliged to do, or should be legally so.
a buddy works at a high end place in hollywood and they ahve a 20% manditory gratuity and the low end meal is 60$ an hour if its moderatly busy he makes 200$ an hour in tips alone for bringing out food and making sure drinks are full.. complete bullcrap imo
NOTE my brother just chimed in on the convo he said cash tips ARE NOT TAXED only ones that are taxed are ones that are charged on plastic/ there for its fraud as its manditory as far as i know please correct me if im wrong..
"Service charges" are different to mere gratuities.
Gratuities / tips are, by definition, at the discretion of the patron.
Service charges are at the insistance of the owner and NOT at the discretion of the payer.
However, a place that adds service charge is likely to get less tips.
That said, as has already been stated, if someone puts a service charge on the bill they have to be able to demonstrate that you actually got service worthy of that charge. Otherwise it is breach of trade-descriptions. Just like they can't charge you for a bottle of wine you didn't order.
Unfortunately the true price of a service is often difficult to quantify.
Gratuities / tips are, by definition, at the discretion of the patron.
Service charges are at the insistance of the owner and NOT at the discretion of the payer.
However, a place that adds service charge is likely to get less tips.
That said, as has already been stated, if someone puts a service charge on the bill they have to be able to demonstrate that you actually got service worthy of that charge. Otherwise it is breach of trade-descriptions. Just like they can't charge you for a bottle of wine you didn't order.
Unfortunately the true price of a service is often difficult to quantify.
Again, you are comparing cal to pen, and I have already shown there are variations in state laws regarding minimum wages.
However, you do imply that a 20% mandatory gratuity occurs in california, at at least some establishments. You have not shown whether or not this goes to the waitstaff or the business in the pennsylvania case.
During the Reagan admin is when tips became taxed. The waitstaff is breaking the law if they do not claim their cash tips. When tips are given on plastic, there is a verifiable trail, hence the auto taxation. This is why I always pay cash tips. I dont care if they dont claim the cash. I give them the option.
Its not fraud, its tax-evasion.
The gratuity we are talking about was auto assigned to this bill. I have no idea where this place puts that gratuity, and it is just as likely they keep it for themselves as it is they pass the cash on to the waitstaff.
California has different laws than Pennsylvania. I know of establishments in MN which take all tips and they can. They pay the fed minimum wage and do not have to let waitstaff keep their tips. This is not to say they dont give bonus' each month or some other reward system, but their logic is its the business itself that has earned the tip due to atmosphere, food quality etc and tips are for the business and not one employee.
Notes Around
Part of the issue—over the long run—as you noted, is that tips have long been deducted by wages. Restaurants want people to tip, because then the business can cut its payroll expense. I remember working at Pizza Hut when I was eighteen, and there was a constant fight between the wait staff, the manager, and the district manager about reporting tips. The problem was that the wait staff would work the whole week, have their tips pulled from their hourly wage, and then their tax bill would eat up the rest of the wages. They were, literally, living on their tips some weeks.
Like you, I don't care if they don't claim their tips. I'm of the opinion that people who work full time should be able to survive on their paycheck. I don't get this bit where people have to hold an extra job on top of their forty hours a week just to make rent.
It is my opinion that when our business community starts delivering on its long-standing rhetoric about the benefits commerce brings to a community, we can properly argue about whether a minimum-wage waiter should be reporting his cash tips.
I agree.
I won't claim it as a universal phenomenon, but among people of my acquaintance, the more wealthy people are, the more demanding they are about tips. I don't know how exactly the psychology works with this one, but it has the appearance that the "starving students" will tip better to their fellow under-financed citizens than the bourgeoisie.
But like I said, it's not universal. One thing I don't get, though, is why so many of the anti-tipping people think they're clever. I mean, it's how many years later, and people still give that smarmy smile when they say, "To Insure Prompt Service". Usually I want to ask, "Fuck, man, did you just write that?"
Vaguely amusing anecdote: My brother, growing up in the '80s, was a Reagan Republican; it might have been a sibling rivalry, though, because years later he pitched a fit when someone called him a Republican, and one of his friends from high school just looked at him and said, "Well, you always vote Republican. You always argue Republican." After that, he actually started staking out his political territory. But, as to tipping, yeah, he used to parrot the list of reasons to not tip, and such. And then he went to college. Somewhere between tipping for beer and handing out to strippers, he figured it out. Personally, I suspect it was Reservoir Dogs that drove the final nail.
So maybe it's not economic. Maybe it's generational. Everyone in my peer circles has either worked for tips, dated someone who worked for tips, or lived with someone who worked for tips. I'm pretty sure that the first time their rent is paid with a wad of tip money, people get the hint. Or, hell, drugs. I think it's safe to say that every stoner I know has experienced the great relief of hearing, "You think Dave is still up? It was a good night."
General comment
In American society, executives receive six-figure bonuses for running companies into the ground. This is how capitalism works.
Yet people have a problem with the idea of tipping a minimum-wage waitress.
Milkweed said:
Part of the issue—over the long run—as you noted, is that tips have long been deducted by wages. Restaurants want people to tip, because then the business can cut its payroll expense. I remember working at Pizza Hut when I was eighteen, and there was a constant fight between the wait staff, the manager, and the district manager about reporting tips. The problem was that the wait staff would work the whole week, have their tips pulled from their hourly wage, and then their tax bill would eat up the rest of the wages. They were, literally, living on their tips some weeks.
Like you, I don't care if they don't claim their tips. I'm of the opinion that people who work full time should be able to survive on their paycheck. I don't get this bit where people have to hold an extra job on top of their forty hours a week just to make rent.
It is my opinion that when our business community starts delivering on its long-standing rhetoric about the benefits commerce brings to a community, we can properly argue about whether a minimum-wage waiter should be reporting his cash tips.
• • •
John99 said:
i always tip. i throw the money down. i am broke though.
when i have it, i throw it down.
I agree.
I won't claim it as a universal phenomenon, but among people of my acquaintance, the more wealthy people are, the more demanding they are about tips. I don't know how exactly the psychology works with this one, but it has the appearance that the "starving students" will tip better to their fellow under-financed citizens than the bourgeoisie.
But like I said, it's not universal. One thing I don't get, though, is why so many of the anti-tipping people think they're clever. I mean, it's how many years later, and people still give that smarmy smile when they say, "To Insure Prompt Service". Usually I want to ask, "Fuck, man, did you just write that?"
Vaguely amusing anecdote: My brother, growing up in the '80s, was a Reagan Republican; it might have been a sibling rivalry, though, because years later he pitched a fit when someone called him a Republican, and one of his friends from high school just looked at him and said, "Well, you always vote Republican. You always argue Republican." After that, he actually started staking out his political territory. But, as to tipping, yeah, he used to parrot the list of reasons to not tip, and such. And then he went to college. Somewhere between tipping for beer and handing out to strippers, he figured it out. Personally, I suspect it was Reservoir Dogs that drove the final nail.
So maybe it's not economic. Maybe it's generational. Everyone in my peer circles has either worked for tips, dated someone who worked for tips, or lived with someone who worked for tips. I'm pretty sure that the first time their rent is paid with a wad of tip money, people get the hint. Or, hell, drugs. I think it's safe to say that every stoner I know has experienced the great relief of hearing, "You think Dave is still up? It was a good night."
• • •
General comment
In American society, executives receive six-figure bonuses for running companies into the ground. This is how capitalism works.
Yet people have a problem with the idea of tipping a minimum-wage waitress.
Saying that a gratuity will be added to the bill means "We will add a charge to your bill, but it's optional whether or not you pay it." That's the definition of "gratuity". We have many other words for charges that you are obligated to pay; by definition a gratuity is something that's optional. If they call a charge a "gratuity," they are explicitly indicating that you are not obligated to pay it according to standard English.
If they want to call it a "fee" or "service charge" or whatnot, fine - but that's not the same thing as a gratuity.
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Often, in Brazil, a 10% tip is included in the bill. Some leave cash on the table also. Recently, it turned out that many waitresses etc. were not actually getting the "in bill" tip, or only a fraction of it. During the investigation it also was discovered that there is widly used software that keeps two sets of books: One showing that 100% of the Tips were paid out to reduce the taxable profits and the other to reflect the facts for managment.
I do not know what finally came out - In Brazil this was only a very minor form of corruption. -Rapidly pushed out of the newspapers by the new weekly scandle of governmnent employees or major politicians. For example last week several thousand of Rio's public employees turned out to have been dead for years. I did not find out where their salaries were paid, because anothe scandle came along.
A few years ago, some reporter visited with Federal employees, many of whom had no idea where their office was. Lula has increased government workers (or their salries?) by 13% just this year. Building large voting for the government block. Slightly more than 5% of GDP goes to salaries of the government workers. Effectivelly they are TIPed very well for nothing but loyal voting. If Brazil could make some progress on the "corruption front" it would be very rich. Fortunately the newspapers are pointing to the problem nearly every week.
BTW TIP is contraction of To Insure Promptness, so I have read, but if true, then it should be given at the start of service.
I would not Tip unless the service was good and attentive; howver, both my daughters were waitresses one or two summers and they did not like my attitude. I agreed that I would give 10% even if the watress was not otherwise good, but kept my water glass full without me asking.
They pointed out that the waitress's pay was often less than minium wage so they really worked for the tips - They said I should think of 10% as part of the bill and be thankful that bill did not include it as then it would be taxed and total bill would need to be higher by more than 10% to yield the same profit to owners. (Asuming that US owners did not follow Brazilian example and just pocket most of the 10% with separte books.)
I do not know what finally came out - In Brazil this was only a very minor form of corruption. -Rapidly pushed out of the newspapers by the new weekly scandle of governmnent employees or major politicians. For example last week several thousand of Rio's public employees turned out to have been dead for years. I did not find out where their salaries were paid, because anothe scandle came along.
A few years ago, some reporter visited with Federal employees, many of whom had no idea where their office was. Lula has increased government workers (or their salries?) by 13% just this year. Building large voting for the government block. Slightly more than 5% of GDP goes to salaries of the government workers. Effectivelly they are TIPed very well for nothing but loyal voting. If Brazil could make some progress on the "corruption front" it would be very rich. Fortunately the newspapers are pointing to the problem nearly every week.
BTW TIP is contraction of To Insure Promptness, so I have read, but if true, then it should be given at the start of service.
I would not Tip unless the service was good and attentive; howver, both my daughters were waitresses one or two summers and they did not like my attitude. I agreed that I would give 10% even if the watress was not otherwise good, but kept my water glass full without me asking.
They pointed out that the waitress's pay was often less than minium wage so they really worked for the tips - They said I should think of 10% as part of the bill and be thankful that bill did not include it as then it would be taxed and total bill would need to be higher by more than 10% to yield the same profit to owners. (Asuming that US owners did not follow Brazilian example and just pocket most of the 10% with separte books.)
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I suspect it's a simple matter of the wealthier people becoming accustomed to better service due to spending more time in better restaurants. If you usually eat somewhere that has attentive waiters who get your order exactly right and don't make you wait a long time for refills etc., you come to consider that "normal" service, and anything else is lacking.
Possible. Although its my experience that in really good restaurants you have to wait and service will be slower because the food will be freshly prepared. In the little ones, you're occupying space and a faster turnover means more tips.
I wouldn't rule it out
I wouldn't strike the theory. Although I would note that while the general calculator in my LG Lotus phone is completely useless—LG has the worst user interface I've ever encountered—it does feature a tip calculator that I've only used once ... to help a well-to-do person figure the least amount he could get away with tipping. Down to the penny. And then as we left, of course, I threw another five bucks on the table behind him, which actually more than doubled what he left. A futile demonstration, I admit, but my point wasn't really to burn him over it. The ... uh ... "important" person (the woman he wants to marry) saw, and understood; then again, that has nothing to do with why she won't marry him.
But, more to the point, before the tip calculators in phones, people used to carry around these little plastic cards with tip rates on them. Four columns: Bill Total, 10%, 15%, 20%.
And, strangely, the only people I ever see using their tip calculators are people who have the money to spare, anyway. Of course, it's not that all wealthy people use tip calculators, so maybe the ones I see are among the idiot bloc of the wealthy.
I don't know if the behavior is difficult to figure, or that I've never given it deep thought because, in the end, bitching about how other people tip just isn't that important in the grand scheme.
Nasor said:
I wouldn't strike the theory. Although I would note that while the general calculator in my LG Lotus phone is completely useless—LG has the worst user interface I've ever encountered—it does feature a tip calculator that I've only used once ... to help a well-to-do person figure the least amount he could get away with tipping. Down to the penny. And then as we left, of course, I threw another five bucks on the table behind him, which actually more than doubled what he left. A futile demonstration, I admit, but my point wasn't really to burn him over it. The ... uh ... "important" person (the woman he wants to marry) saw, and understood; then again, that has nothing to do with why she won't marry him.
But, more to the point, before the tip calculators in phones, people used to carry around these little plastic cards with tip rates on them. Four columns: Bill Total, 10%, 15%, 20%.
And, strangely, the only people I ever see using their tip calculators are people who have the money to spare, anyway. Of course, it's not that all wealthy people use tip calculators, so maybe the ones I see are among the idiot bloc of the wealthy.
I don't know if the behavior is difficult to figure, or that I've never given it deep thought because, in the end, bitching about how other people tip just isn't that important in the grand scheme.
as stated before it goes to the waitstaff waiters/waitresses.. they keep the tip and it is manditory.. and i know how the min wage is lower in other states same applies tho a high end place can pay 3$ an hour and they can make 200 an hour in tips
superstring01
Moderator
I'm an over-tipper. Having been a server and bar tender for most of my early 20's I faithfully give 20-30 percent tips. Bad service might, at worst, elicit a 15% tip from me.
It's some moral code from which I cannot seem to break free.
~String
It's some moral code from which I cannot seem to break free.
~String
Like he said, Reagan made tips taxable, only for servers. Employers are required to report 8% of what the waiter/waitress sells as income. It doesn't matter if you leave 0% of the bill or 25% of the bill as a tip , the waitstaff will be taxed 8%. I consider that taxation without representation because no other "tipped" service provider is required to report sales as income. It is a rule of thumb to tip the waiter/waitress 15% and they based the law off that.
And tipping here is different than most of the world. In Europe, it is printed right on the menus that a gratuity will be added to the bill. You can leave extra if you want. For example, in Germany, if the bill came to 24,31 deutsche marks, you could throw down 25+dm and tell them to keep the change. Or if it was bad service, sit there and wait for your change.
I started tipping after I went to the US and realised its considered immoral if you don't tip. Although I have to admit that it feels weird to tip people who get a salary, when I come from a country where getting a full meal is a luxury for so many. Most of the people I tipped probably had television, cable, phone, an education while for people back home that tip money would keep them from prostituting their kids for a meal.
the whole point of this is gratuity should NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE be manditory.. gratuity is a TIP FOR GOOD SERVICE aka you can do it if you want you dont have to.. when it becomes manditory its like a service charge and is not gratuity.. if menus said a 10 15 or whatever % service charge will be added nothing would be said.. but gratuity by definition is not manditory and as others have said is up to the decresion of the patron bottom line when gratuity becomes manditory its no longer gratuity
The labeling of it as "gratuity" is business speak for a service charge. If you encounter this at some time in the future, I would suggest you do the tax math. You will find this [what you claim optional] fee is taxed whether you pay it or not. It taxed because a 'service has been rendered'.
It is very likely a judge will find for the restuarant in this case. The 'gratuity' was a freely given fee for service of this large party. The customers had the option to leave before ordering and I imagine, they would not have had to pay a gratuity on their drinks, for these things are usually just applied only on menu items.
One (of many important life lessons learned from my step-dad). First thing you do in a bar your planning on partying at. Lay down a $10 and tell the bartender to put it in his/her pocket. Then begin ordering your drinks. Tip again as needed.
Always and I do mean ALWAYS make friends with the bartender.
