Are you there God? ...it's uh, Sciforums.

[greenberg]

OK, let me try and clarify your position. You can believe in God, but not accept what has historically been said about it?

My point is that you cannot believe in God and not believe in God at the same time.

My point is that one can believe in God and not care about God or believing in God.

Something like having a scar on your skin: It's there, you acknowledge it, you don't deny it, but you pay it little or no attention and you don't think it defines you - because you have better things to focus on, like the strength of your muscles or your ability to concentrate.

 

[greenberg]

Greenberg, you are taking this way too seriously.

No, I'm not. I apologize if I came across as too interested.

I can only give you my personal testimony that seriously being willing to believe in God, seriously allowing for the possibility that believing in God is the best thing one can do, can lead to tremendous suffering. I've been there.

But if you're not taking this experiment seriously and are into it only half-heartedly - then I'm afraid you're just squandering precious time and energy.

 

[spidergoat]

I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.

 

[Enmos]

No, I'm not. I apologize if I came across as too interested.

I can only give you my personal testimony that seriously being willing to believe in God, seriously allowing for the possibility that believing in God is the best thing one can do, can lead to tremendous suffering. I've been there.

But if you're not taking this experiment seriously and are into it only half-heartedly - then I'm afraid you're just squandering precious time and energy.

Well, if you mean by half-heartedly that I am an atheist then yeah I suppose you are right. But that's the whole point isn't it ?
Vitalone says he can convert atheists by using prayer, that's what's being tested right now.
All I really have to do is say "go ahead, test prayer on me". But I don't have to believe in it, otherwise the experiment is kind of nonsense don't you think ?

 

[greenberg]

I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.

It's not strange at all. It's from a fairly common Christian doctrine about who goes to hell. Namely, according to that doctrine, there are people who know God, but who refuse to worship Him, people who refuse to acknowledge God's superiority. According to that doctrine, these are the worst kind of people, destined for eternal damnation.

That there are people who know God, but who refuse to worship Him - this is also a fairly common assumption many theists are making when addressing atheists. When they accuse us of "lying to ourselves", "being proud", "being dishonest", "knowing the Truth but wilfully rebelling against it" - this is when they are implying that we know God, but refuse to bow to Him.

 

[greenberg]

Well, if you mean by half-heartedly that I am an atheist then yeah I suppose you are right.

No, that's not what I meant.

You said earlier -

On the other hand, if I wake up one morning believing in God then that would show that God really exists (at least to me).

I hope I'm wrong, but your attitude strikes me as a bit light.
It appears you're not all too worried over the possibility that believing in God could be severely detrimental for you.

Take another example: If someone claimed they can cast a spell on you, and then you'd become crazy - would you invite them to cast that spell on you?

 

[Enmos]

No, that's not what I meant.

You said earlier -


I hope I'm wrong, but your attitude strikes me as a bit light.
It appears you're not all too worried over the possibility that believing in God could be severely detrimental for you.

Take another example: If someone claimed they can cast a spell on you, and then you'd become crazy - would you invite them to cast that spell on you?

Yeah sure, I know that can't be done. Spells are a fantasy.

Thing is, I am not too worried about waking up to believe in God because I don't think it is ever going to happen.
Let me put it this way, it would be a downright miracle if that happened.

 

[Donnal]

ok spider if you pray iso i dont mind as long as no one gets hurt it dont matter what a person does with their beleif as long as they dont hurt others
but ahmm well prayer works for sum people and dont work for others
are you after a miracle or perhaps a superstring or are you just playing round with prayers to see if they work or not
i guess a child can give you that answer if you ask a child did they pray for sumthing and did it come true the answer is NO IT DIDNT and they still waitng for their wish from the falling star to work
well am sorry but if you do think it works does it look like it works to other people do you ever wonder why people laugh at others when they believe sumthing works to them it dont so you may see differently to others and you may look funny to kids if you say it does work prayer only works for people who believe adn dont care if others cant see it or not
as long as you believe and dont hurt no one is ok by me

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Oh my, our dear VitalOne appears to have been banned. I wonder if he can pray the system to unban him as well?

 

[SnakeLord]

I haven't tried anything yet

I don't get it. Usually you can't stop a theist "praying for you" and yet the minute someone asks you to pray for them you don't have the time?

Be honest: Are you scared you're going to fail?

[edit] Bugger, just saw the post above. Oh well

 

[Enmos]

Oh my, our dear VitalOne appears to have been banned. I wonder if he can pray the system to unban him as well?

lol I wondered why things were so civilized all of a sudden
Well, at least he has some time to focus on creating intend, or whatever..

 

[Enmos]

Oww..!! I must have missed this LOL :roflmao:

I just tried a test on spidergoat, this is what happened

For a moment spidergoat started believing God existed, but then he thought about the Bible something about 6000 years and tried to cancel it out, but there's still the effect

I need to fine-tune this...it'll definitely work

Is it true Spidey ?

 

[mis-t-highs]

vital ones banning: it's only short term he'll be back in a couple of days.

 

[Godless]

I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.

Well yes the position is called deists. Deists believe in god, but they don't follow any typical religion nor do they believe that god is involved in human affairs.

As for the prayer to change someone's point a view, is it this kind of pointless?

I've been prayed for many times, so they claim, yet I'm still 100% rational, I've not given up reason for myth & supernaturalism, I don't intend to give up logic over faith, so the prayer VO may or may not project is bound to fail, for the same fact that neither Spidergoat nor Enmos would abandon reason for myth. I suppose I'm correct in this assumption...:shrug:

 

[spidergoat]

I believe it's bound to fail, which is why if it does succeed, it would be miraculous.

To think of God as a metaphor for the interconnectedness of everything in the universe is a useful idea, but would this be much different than atheism? Since we aren't commanded to do anything in particular, it still leaves secular humanism in charge.

 

[greenberg]

Since we aren't commanded to do anything in particular

Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.

You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.

The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.

So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.

You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.

 

[Enmos]

Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.

You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.

The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.

So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.

You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.

Who in his right mind would submit to something he doesn't belief in ??

 

[spidergoat]

Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.

You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.

The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.

So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.

You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.

But if God isn't involved in human society (deism), then he never commanded anything.

 

[greenberg]

That follows, yes.

But I'm not sure that a deist belief in God is of any use or makes any difference, or that it is even discernible (other than merely nominally).


(My point earlier about knowing God but refusing to worship Him, was not deist, though.)

 

[Michael]

So Spider are you theist yet??

Also, when I look at your avatar I can actually automatically imagine a roaring ghost-like noise. Anyone else have this happen to them?

Michael