In other words you have no argument.
Goodbye.
Are all soldiers like the Nazis?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Goodbye.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Sammy! Darlink! I did not ask you what is not a solution. I asked you what was YOUR solution.
The tens of millions of died are the tens of millions that died Sam. They are not offering answers to the living. Stretch yourself! If you are anti-war what is the solution?
Personally I think anyone who believes violence is a solution should be requested to blow their brains out.
Nothing like practising your own precepts for some real life experience of what works.
very nice
outstanding series of posts
it is now hilarious to watch butchers justify their slaughter
WillNever
Valued Senior Member
Dwidder, I've stated my argument very soundly and many others have responded to it. You not wanting to accept my formatting preferences doesn't change that.
You may speak to me in paragraph form, or you can pester other people. The choice is your's, not mine.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
II. On Those Who Died in the War
Pericles (c.495–429 B.C.)
(430 B.C.)
Born about 500 B.C., died in 429; entered public life about 469 as leader of the Democratic party; principal minister of the Athenian State after 444; commanded in the first Peloponnesian War.
THE GREATER 1 part of those who ere now have spoken in this place, have been accustomed to praise the man who introduced this oration into the law; considering it a right thing that it should be delivered over those who are buried after falling in battle. To me, however, it would have appeared sufficient, that when men had shown themselves brave by deeds, their honors also should be displayed by deeds—as you now see in the case of this burial, prepared at the public expense—and not that the virtues of many should be periled in one individual for credit to be given him according as he expresses himself well or ill. For it is difficult to speak with propriety on a subject on which even the impression of one’s truthfulness is with difficulty established.
Now with regard to our military achievements, by which each possession was gained, whether in any case it were ourselves, or our fathers, that repelled with spirit hostilities brought against us by barbarian or Greek; as I do not wish to enlarge on the subject before you who are well acquainted with it, I will pass them over. But by what a mode of life we attained to our power, and by what form of government and owing to what habits it became so great, I will explain these points first, and then proceed to the eulogy of these men; as I consider that on the present occasion they will not be inappropriately mentioned, and that it is profitable for the whole assembly, both citizens and strangers, to listen to them.
For we enjoy a form of government which does not copy the laws of our neighbors; but we are ourselves rather a pattern to others than imitators of them. In name, from its not being administered for the benefit of the few, but of the many, it is called a democracy; but with regard to its laws, all enjoy equality, as concerns their private differences; while with regard to public rank, according as each man has reputation for anything, he is preferred for public honors, not so much from consideration of party, as of merit; nor, again, on the ground of poverty, while he is able to do the state any good service, is he prevented by the obscurity of his position. We are liberal then in our public administration; and with regard to mutual jealousy of our daily pursuits, we are not angry with our neighbor, if he does anything to please himself; nor wear on our countenance offensive looks, which tho harmless, are yet unpleasant. While, however, in private matters we live together agreeably, in public matters, under the influence of fear, we most carefully abstain from transgression, through our obedience to those who are from time to time in office, and to the laws; especially such of them as are enacted for the benefit of the injured, and such as, tho unwritten, bring acknowledged disgrace [on those who break them].
Moreover, we have provided for our spirits the most numerous recreations from labors, by celebrating games and sacrifices through the whole year, and by maintaining elegant private establishments, of which the daily gratification drives away sadness. Owing to the greatness too of our city, everything from every land is imported into it; and it is our lot to reap with no more peculiar enjoyment the good things which are produced here, than those of the rest of the world likewise.
In the studies of war also we differ from our enemies in the following respects: We throw our city open to all, and never, by the expulsion of strangers, exclude anyone from either learning or observing things, by seeing which unconcealed any of our enemies might gain an advantage; for we trust not so much to preparations and stratagems, as to our own valor for daring deeds. Again, as to our modes of education, they aim at the acquisition of a manly character, by laborious training from their very youth; while we, tho living at our ease, no less boldly advance to meet equal dangers. As a proof of this, the Lacedæmonians never march against our country singly, but with all [their confederates] together: while we, generally speaking, have no difficulty in conquering in battle upon hostile ground those who are standing up in defense of their own. And no enemy ever yet encountered our whole united force, through our attending at the same time to our navy, and sending our troops by land on so many different services: but wherever they have engaged with any part of it, if they conquer only some of us, they boast that we were all routed by them; and if they are conquered, they say it was by all that they were beaten. And yet if with careless ease rather than with laborious practise, and with a courage which is the result not so much of laws as of natural disposition, we are willing to face danger, we have the advantage of not suffering beforehand from coming troubles, and of proving ourselves, when we are involved in them, no less bold than those who are always toiling; so that our country is worthy of admiration in these respects, and in others besides.
For we study taste with economy, and philosophy without effeminacy; and employ wealth rather for opportunity of action than for boastfulness of talking; while poverty is nothing disgraceful for a man to confess, but not to escape it by exertion is more disgraceful. Again, the same men can attend at the same time to domestic as well as to public affairs; and others, who are engaged with business, can still form a sufficient judgment on political questions. For we are the only people that consider the man who takes no part in these things, not as unofficious, but as useless; and we ourselves judge rightly of measures, at any rate, if we do not originate them; while we do not regard words as any hindrance to deeds, but rather [consider it a hindrance] not to have been previously instructed by word, before undertaking in deed what we have to do. For we have this characteristic also in a remarkable degree, that we are at the same time most daring and most calculating in what we take in hand, whereas to other men it is ignorance that brings daring, while calculation brings fear.
In short, I say that both the whole city is a school for Greece, and that, in my opinion, the same individual would among us provide himself qualified for the most varied kinds of action, and with the most graceful versatility. And that this is not mere vaunting language for the occasion, so much as actual truth, the very power of the state, which we have won by such habits, affords a proof. For it is the only country at the present time that, when brought to the test, proves superior to its fame; and the only one that neither gives to the enemy who has attacked us any cause for indignation at being worsted by such opponents, nor to him who is subject to us room for finding fault, as not being ruled by men who are worthy of empire. But we shall be admired both by present and future generations as having exhibited our power with great proofs, and by no means without evidence; and as having no further need, either of Homer to praise us or anyone else who might charm for the moment by his verses, while the truth of the facts would mar the idea formed of them; but as having compelled every sea and land to become accessible to our daring, and everywhere established everlasting records, whether of evil or of good. It was for such a country then that these men, nobly resolving not to have it taken from them, fell fighting; and every one of their survivors may well be willing to suffer in its behalf.
http://www.bartleby.com/268/1/3.html
It goes on Sam. You should read it.
Willnever I will never diminish the worth of a soldiers sacrifice.
Pericles (c.495–429 B.C.)
(430 B.C.)
Born about 500 B.C., died in 429; entered public life about 469 as leader of the Democratic party; principal minister of the Athenian State after 444; commanded in the first Peloponnesian War.
THE GREATER 1 part of those who ere now have spoken in this place, have been accustomed to praise the man who introduced this oration into the law; considering it a right thing that it should be delivered over those who are buried after falling in battle. To me, however, it would have appeared sufficient, that when men had shown themselves brave by deeds, their honors also should be displayed by deeds—as you now see in the case of this burial, prepared at the public expense—and not that the virtues of many should be periled in one individual for credit to be given him according as he expresses himself well or ill. For it is difficult to speak with propriety on a subject on which even the impression of one’s truthfulness is with difficulty established.
Now with regard to our military achievements, by which each possession was gained, whether in any case it were ourselves, or our fathers, that repelled with spirit hostilities brought against us by barbarian or Greek; as I do not wish to enlarge on the subject before you who are well acquainted with it, I will pass them over. But by what a mode of life we attained to our power, and by what form of government and owing to what habits it became so great, I will explain these points first, and then proceed to the eulogy of these men; as I consider that on the present occasion they will not be inappropriately mentioned, and that it is profitable for the whole assembly, both citizens and strangers, to listen to them.
For we enjoy a form of government which does not copy the laws of our neighbors; but we are ourselves rather a pattern to others than imitators of them. In name, from its not being administered for the benefit of the few, but of the many, it is called a democracy; but with regard to its laws, all enjoy equality, as concerns their private differences; while with regard to public rank, according as each man has reputation for anything, he is preferred for public honors, not so much from consideration of party, as of merit; nor, again, on the ground of poverty, while he is able to do the state any good service, is he prevented by the obscurity of his position. We are liberal then in our public administration; and with regard to mutual jealousy of our daily pursuits, we are not angry with our neighbor, if he does anything to please himself; nor wear on our countenance offensive looks, which tho harmless, are yet unpleasant. While, however, in private matters we live together agreeably, in public matters, under the influence of fear, we most carefully abstain from transgression, through our obedience to those who are from time to time in office, and to the laws; especially such of them as are enacted for the benefit of the injured, and such as, tho unwritten, bring acknowledged disgrace [on those who break them].
Moreover, we have provided for our spirits the most numerous recreations from labors, by celebrating games and sacrifices through the whole year, and by maintaining elegant private establishments, of which the daily gratification drives away sadness. Owing to the greatness too of our city, everything from every land is imported into it; and it is our lot to reap with no more peculiar enjoyment the good things which are produced here, than those of the rest of the world likewise.
In the studies of war also we differ from our enemies in the following respects: We throw our city open to all, and never, by the expulsion of strangers, exclude anyone from either learning or observing things, by seeing which unconcealed any of our enemies might gain an advantage; for we trust not so much to preparations and stratagems, as to our own valor for daring deeds. Again, as to our modes of education, they aim at the acquisition of a manly character, by laborious training from their very youth; while we, tho living at our ease, no less boldly advance to meet equal dangers. As a proof of this, the Lacedæmonians never march against our country singly, but with all [their confederates] together: while we, generally speaking, have no difficulty in conquering in battle upon hostile ground those who are standing up in defense of their own. And no enemy ever yet encountered our whole united force, through our attending at the same time to our navy, and sending our troops by land on so many different services: but wherever they have engaged with any part of it, if they conquer only some of us, they boast that we were all routed by them; and if they are conquered, they say it was by all that they were beaten. And yet if with careless ease rather than with laborious practise, and with a courage which is the result not so much of laws as of natural disposition, we are willing to face danger, we have the advantage of not suffering beforehand from coming troubles, and of proving ourselves, when we are involved in them, no less bold than those who are always toiling; so that our country is worthy of admiration in these respects, and in others besides.
For we study taste with economy, and philosophy without effeminacy; and employ wealth rather for opportunity of action than for boastfulness of talking; while poverty is nothing disgraceful for a man to confess, but not to escape it by exertion is more disgraceful. Again, the same men can attend at the same time to domestic as well as to public affairs; and others, who are engaged with business, can still form a sufficient judgment on political questions. For we are the only people that consider the man who takes no part in these things, not as unofficious, but as useless; and we ourselves judge rightly of measures, at any rate, if we do not originate them; while we do not regard words as any hindrance to deeds, but rather [consider it a hindrance] not to have been previously instructed by word, before undertaking in deed what we have to do. For we have this characteristic also in a remarkable degree, that we are at the same time most daring and most calculating in what we take in hand, whereas to other men it is ignorance that brings daring, while calculation brings fear.
In short, I say that both the whole city is a school for Greece, and that, in my opinion, the same individual would among us provide himself qualified for the most varied kinds of action, and with the most graceful versatility. And that this is not mere vaunting language for the occasion, so much as actual truth, the very power of the state, which we have won by such habits, affords a proof. For it is the only country at the present time that, when brought to the test, proves superior to its fame; and the only one that neither gives to the enemy who has attacked us any cause for indignation at being worsted by such opponents, nor to him who is subject to us room for finding fault, as not being ruled by men who are worthy of empire. But we shall be admired both by present and future generations as having exhibited our power with great proofs, and by no means without evidence; and as having no further need, either of Homer to praise us or anyone else who might charm for the moment by his verses, while the truth of the facts would mar the idea formed of them; but as having compelled every sea and land to become accessible to our daring, and everywhere established everlasting records, whether of evil or of good. It was for such a country then that these men, nobly resolving not to have it taken from them, fell fighting; and every one of their survivors may well be willing to suffer in its behalf.
http://www.bartleby.com/268/1/3.html
It goes on Sam. You should read it.
Willnever I will never diminish the worth of a soldiers sacrifice.
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Whats a perfect world? One where mindless minions are not killing people on order? Do you think its possible to live in a world where people use their brains for something other than mindless murder? We've already decided slavery sucks and the caste system is not progressive.
So why are we still glorifying mindless institutionalised violence?
Whats the sacrifice an armed man makes when he kills another human being? Besides his humanity?
So you're advocating violence as a solution to violent tendencies?
Unfortunately we live in the "real world" where (sad fact) people are known to gather into large groups and try to impose their will on others.
And equally unfortunately sometimes the only perceived solution to that is to resist by force of arms.
Incapable of spelling/ copying a name?
Sound argument?
It is to laugh...
Opnion, unsubstantiated nonsense.
Why should I accept YOUR preferences?
Simply so you can preserve your own "intellectual" parochialism?
I'll respond as I see fit.
So you're advocating violence as a solution to violent tendencies?
No unless you think applying your own precepts on yourself is violent.
Its usually perceived like that by those with arms. If they turned them on themselves, it may be a solution. Do you think they'll agree to self application?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
What is your solution sam? You have yet to answer the question and if this is to be a 'debate' in 'good faith' then you should by all rights answer the question. I mean its not as if you are not a willing participant.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
It often costs him his life.
Generally (and I tend to agree) blowing ones brains is viewed as violence...
It's also perceived as such by those without arms, and then there's a rush to acquire them...
Unlikely, humans being human and all that.
If you can get all the potential aggressors to agree to it however the rest of us will get rid of our armies.
I already gave the solution twice. If a politician thinks violence is necessary, he should get into a ring with his opponent(s)
The war would be a lot shorter and the rest of us could go on with our lives.
I'm going to quote a person I admire here, because it was an epiphany for me:
"Once you've seen certain things, you can't un-see them and saying nothing is as political an act as speaking out...There is no innocence and there isn't any sense in which of us is perfect or not invested in the system. If I put my money in a bank, its going to fund bombs...When I pay taxes I am investing in projects I disagree with. I'm not a completely blameless person...But from that un-pristine position, is it better to say nothing or to say something?"
And? Is his life more valuable than the ones he is willing to take? By what measure?
WillNever
Valued Senior Member
Sacrificing yourself for an unworthy cause isn't honorable at all. It's insanity.
The troops are not suddenly stripped of free will and the ability to make difficult decisions once they sign their contracts. They always have a choice. It's not a good choice, but it's still a choice. Right now it is the choice between spilling the blood of human beings who never once harmed you in any way whatsoever simply because you were ordered to, or putting an end to your violent lifestyle career choice and damaging your reputation in the eyes of close-minded warbots. Exactly which choice is noble and which choice is evil, and which path most of the so-called "honorable troops" end up going down, I will leave as an exercise for everyone here to figure out.
In the mean time, our troops today aren't self-sacrificing for any sort of noble cause. And if we're talking about the American military and Iraq again, then what they're doing is actually tearing the place up and obliterating the Iraqi's infrastructure even worse than ever before. There are no "humanitarian reasons" involved in the military either. That song and dance has been played way too many times in order to justify this war which is pulverizing our OWN country into political and economic pebbles. If any of that were true, then where was the USA during the tyrannical reign of Idi Amin during the 1970's..? Where was the USA during the incomprehensible butchery between the tribes of Rwanda and Zaire during the 1980's and early 1990's..? Where is the USA in Dharfur..? Why aren't we in Ghana, preventing them from committing routine atrocities upon the vaginas of screaming little girls (genital infibulation without anesthesia -- look it up). Why aren't we in Thailand, rescuing thousands and thousands of very young women from the clutches of pimps and sex slave traders..? I don't think I need to list anymore human rights abuses.... it's too horrible to think about.
The reason we have never invaded any of those countries -- regions where there have been a long history of FAR worse atrocities and slaughter than in Iraq-- is because their major exports are dates, figs and venereal disease. No profits to be made from saving those poor human beings -- so we've never bothered to rescue them, and the horror continues unabated in those places to this very day. That is the sick, unvarnished truth. Our leaders are twisted, profiteering liars, our military ( along with the volunteer army) are unintelligent, unwitting pawns who no longer deserve support, and there is no reason to believe otherwise.
Yo... Echo3Romeo... I'm talking to you. How does it feel being exploited by a war machine for hire and getting a fat dick plunged into your mouth? Do you enjoy fat dicks in your mouth? No...? Well, that's what happens when you join up. Maybe it's time for a career switch.
In your own personal opinion (in which i am not going to question or argue) I want to know if you think it's possible to live in a world without war, essentially. The conditions for the world being perfect would be no murder, no money, no want for possessions or religion if you would like in your perfect world. It's your idea of perfect. Not mine. You just tell me if you think it's possible to have a perfect world, no wars.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
The war should be shorter? And what would you suggest? Obama may or may not send in more troops into Afghanistan. I say they should send no more and while they are at it bring everyone home and leave those behind to sort out their fate for good or for ill. At that point I would also advocate no financial aid.
In the meantime we fight on and that will probably continue within our borders.
The life of a lost soldier who is fighting for his country and his people is no less worthy Sam than another combatant who would nobly die. See you have missed the point. Its not necessary to console the enemy, he has his own people to console him.