An approach to spirituality without God

To spidergoat:
I am originally from Argentina. I am now living in the US, in the middle of "good all boy's land "(it seems). I have never heard here anyone mentioning the impeachment of Bush. The anti war protest may gather 5-6 people.

The first thing people ask you when then met you is " what church do you go?", just to give you an idea. Besides I have never heard in the local news or even Fox, CNN, or the big ones anything about the possibility of Bush's impeachment (I must admit I do not watch the news everyday). If anything was said it was never a big deal. Meanwhile Clintons' impeachment was a constant all day issue over here. They may screen and eliminate that kind of news. It seems I live in an alternative reality...

Anyways, the fact that Bush was not impeached and ended his term normally, tells me that whatever was attempted did not have enough power.
 
To earth:
Please see my note to spider goat. The fact that they do not go much to church is a start because they may be getting the notion of the hypocrisy of the organized religions.

I wonder what alternative spiritual solution they have. And, again, i believe, as long as they do not need spirituality (as when their lives are stable) it will be all right, the problem would be when their life starts getting too complicated and they find themselves unable to cope with the usual mechanisms.Then, what do they do?
 
to takethewarhome:
Oh! OK! That was the war you were talking about! Good! I was concerned for a moment that you might have a loved one in Irak.:)
 
To Bisandi
The point I was trying to make is that being selficentered is not smart or intelligent and gives you more difficulties in the long term. I do not want to focus on the moralistic, dogmatic, "cliche" arena of the this because that is what religions usually do, as part of the brainwashing.

They use "already made" frases and cliches that sound good and right and are repeated again and again. Avoiding the though and analysis process.
 
yasmin said:
To Bisandi
The point I was trying to make is that being selficentered is not smart or intelligent and gives you more difficulties in the long term.
Click to expand...


i agree......


me not a 'self' promoting kind of guy


I do not want to focus on the moralistic, dogmatic, "cliche" arena of the this because that is what religions usually do, as part of the brainwashing.
Click to expand...
i agree.....

moral and dogma are created (learned)

genes are of instinct

genes assist the body in survival

consciousness allows learning and over-coming self with reason

i like the nuts and bolts too.

ask most on this site; i am a wee bit weird about the nuts and bolts stuff

and not because i am anything special but that knowledge is evolving and will eclipse much of the current paradigm as the diamond unfold the truth.

reflecting what already exists to me is like being HONEST with what I can personally be responsible for as a (per se) witness.

the homework, research and decades of commitment to learn; that i can attest, i have done (don't make me special, just capable)

any can be capable; if they learn, since genes never gave us the truth to comprehend.
 
Bishadi said:
i agree......


me not a 'self' promoting kind of guy


i agree.....

moral and dogma are created (learned)

genes are of instinct

genes assist the body in survival

consciousness allows learning and over-coming self with reason

i like the nuts and bolts too.

ask most on this site; i am a wee bit weird about the nuts and bolts stuff

and not because i am anything special but that knowledge is evolving and will eclipse much of the current paradigm as the diamond unfold the truth.

reflecting what already exists to me is like being HONEST with what I can personally be responsible for as a (per se) witness.

the homework, research and decades of commitment to learn; that i can attest, i have done (don't make me special, just capable)

any can be capable; if they learn, since genes never gave us the truth to comprehend.
Click to expand...

I agree, once you start trying to figure things out, it is a never ending thing. At one point, it is important to put your thoughts out for scrutiny, as one may
be totally wrong and there is no other way to find out.

This way of approaching life has allowed me to survive alone, in a different culture, not knowing the system, not knowing the language, not having money. To me this approach is the only way to do it, but I would like to know other valid approaches, I migth be totally wrong!!

I 've read a lot of books for years no one has given me a specific set of "instructions" if you will... never one guru, master, writer etc has completelly convinced me on how should we approach life's challenges.

I do not think is valid the thought of a guru or master who has never been married or who has never had to work for living, what do they know about life's problems? Most of the time I fail to see the practical application of their ideas and thoughts, even though they may sound good.

It is invaluable to me to receive feed back from other regular people who, like me suffer, work hard, have pains and fears and traumas. Preferably from poeple with different backgrounds and levels of education, different professions and ages. Their input helps me balance my thoughts.
 
yasmin said:
I have never heard here anyone mentioning the impeachment of Bush.
Besides I have never heard in the local news or even Fox, CNN, or the big ones anything about the possibility of Bush's impeachment.

Anyways, the fact that Bush was not impeached and ended his term normally, tells me that whatever was attempted did not have enough power.
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You're right it is very difficult to impeach a sitting President.

As the days of second and final term dwindle down (“to a precious few,” as an old song goes), President Bush is likely to leave office as the least popular president in polling history.
 
yasmin,

The 17th president Andrew Johnson was impeached by the House of Representatives in 1868 for violation of the Tenure in Office Act of 1867. However, the Senate was one vote short of convicting Johnson.
The 42nd president Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998 by the House for perjury and obstruction of justice. As with Johnson, the Senate could not come up with the two-thirds majority to convict Clinton.

President Nixon was not impeached. While the House issued articles of impeachment for bribery, obstruction of justice, illegal wiretapping, and bribery Nixon resigned the Presidency before the House voted for impeachment. Most certainly had he not resigned he would have been impeached.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_US_Presidents_have_been_impeached


Throughout America's history, only two presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton. In 1868, impeachment proceedings were initiated against Johnson by the House of Representatives, who charged Johnson with usurpation of the law, corrupt use of veto power, interference at elections, and various misdemeanors. However, the fifty-four-member Senate proceedings acquitted Johnson by one vote. In December 1998, the House of Representatives brought two articles of impeachment against President Clinton: perjury under oath before a federal grand jury about the precise nature of his sexual relations with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, and obstruction of justice by withholding evidence about, and influencing others to conceal, his affair with Lewinsky. Ultimately, the U.S. Senate rejected both charges, and Clinton remained in office.
http://www.answers.com/topic/how-many-presidents-have-been-impeached
 
earth said:
yasmin,

The 17th president Andrew Johnson was impeached by the House of Representatives in 1868 for violation of the Tenure in Office Act of 1867. However, the Senate was one vote short of convicting Johnson.
The 42nd president Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998 by the House for perjury and obstruction of justice. As with Johnson, the Senate could not come up with the two-thirds majority to convict Clinton.

President Nixon was not impeached. While the House issued articles of impeachment for bribery, obstruction of justice, illegal wiretapping, and bribery Nixon resigned the Presidency before the House voted for impeachment. Most certainly had he not resigned he would have been impeached.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_US_Presidents_have_been_impeached


Throughout America's history, only two presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton. In 1868, impeachment proceedings were initiated against Johnson by the House of Representatives, who charged Johnson with usurpation of the law, corrupt use of veto power, interference at elections, and various misdemeanors. However, the fifty-four-member Senate proceedings acquitted Johnson by one vote. In December 1998, the House of Representatives brought two articles of impeachment against President Clinton: perjury under oath before a federal grand jury about the precise nature of his sexual relations with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, and obstruction of justice by withholding evidence about, and influencing others to conceal, his affair with Lewinsky. Ultimately, the U.S. Senate rejected both charges, and Clinton remained in office.
http://www.answers.com/topic/how-many-presidents-have-been-impeached
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So we had a president who lied so he could justify a war, evidence against the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Irak was apparently covered up (according to my little information) again, to justify the war.

As a result of the war, hundreds of thousands of people have died including american and iraki people, billions of dollars have been spent and continue to be spent everyday to finance this war, while the country is going through an economic recession at the verge of an economic collapse.

Besides, after this massive death counts, the already known hate against american people, is only increasing every day, exposing the country to more attacks from those who hate us. How much more harm can an american president do against this country?

Now let me tell you one thing, for what I see here, if American people were not so fond of wars, this war wouldn't have occurred. Bush just acted like another demagogue, here any monkey can wrap himself with an american flag and get anything he wants.
In a democracy like this, the government is an acurate reflection of the people it governs. If every American would have said NO to war this wouldn't have happened.

If a dictator was in power in America, then I can accept American people did not have much responsibility for the war. But that was not the case, we are ALL responsible for this. Regular Americans for their love affair with wars, and for burying their heads under the sand to not to hear the truth. The news agencies for missinforming and keeping Americans ignorant of what was going on and of course Bush's government for all they did as described above.
 
Yasmin,
Everybody has a right to their opinions and most assuredly you have right to yours. Plenty of Americans would agree with you concerning Bush. However, he is out of office now and history will be his judge. IMO, Bush was a set back for America, not an advancement. As for saying Americans are war mongers or love war, I think that is a little unfair. What we love most is our freedom of speech allowing for the voicing of our opinions.
 
People like me are also responsible because I knew this was wrong, but I did not do enough, I did not try harder to let other people realize this.
 
Bush was not elected, he was appointed by the Supreme Court in a bloodless coup. He was the closest to a dictator we ever had. Protests against the war were the largest ever. In my city, tens of thousands of people closed the streets and many were arrested.
 
earth said:
Yasmin,
Everybody has a right to their opinions and most assuredly you have right to yours. Plenty of Americans would agree with you concerning Bush. However, he is out of office now and history will be his judge. IMO, Bush was a set back for America, not an advancement. As for saying Americans are war mongers or love war, I think that is a little unfair. What we love most is our freedom of speech allowing for the voicing of our opinions.
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I agree with what you say, i am an American citizen now too, the truth hurts me too and in my case I chose to be an American, i did not have to be an American, my guilt is even worse.

But let me tell you something else I figured out, those of us who can see the truth have even a bigger responsibility, we must enlighten those who can't, according to those who believe in karma, this is the way the universe is organized. We have a responsibility for the evolution of our own souls and also a responsibility for the evolution of the whole society.
 
spidergoat said:
Bush was not elected, he was appointed by the Supreme Court in a bloodless coup. He was the closest to a dictator we ever had. Protests against the war were the largest ever. In my city, tens of thousands of people closed the streets and many were arrested.
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Good! I am glad to hear that. I can see, we must try to extend that consiousness to even the little towns in the middle of the country. But let me tell you, the news are totally manipulated in these little towns, is will not be easy.

This reminds me of the Elian Gonzales incident in Miami. Do you remember? Back in the 1998- 1999 you might have been very young, i do not know. Those of us who were opposed to keeping the child away from his father in Cuba, did not have a voice.

The TV news and the Miami Herald,despite all of the emails we were sending never published the schedules or places of our gatherings to protest against the cuban exiles who wanted to keep the child in Miami. Never publised or mentioned anything about the opinion of the people against the cuban exiles.

People from all over the world would come to those forums to critizice America for what it was done to this child. We had to do organize everything via internet and only one independent weekly free news paper would publish our opinion, it was a real mission for us.

At the end I want to believe this was effective, as the child was given back to his father and the cuban exiles, who were behaving as dictators in Florida (not different from Castro), were divided in 2 the most conservative and the more open to a more civilized approach.

I am not sure how much freedom of speach it really exist in the country when the news are really manipulated picked and chosed according to certain agendas??:shrug:
 
I didn't participate because at the time I thought the war was justified. I didn't believe the president would lie as blatantly as they did.
 
spidergoat said:
I didn't participate because at the time I thought the war was justified. I didn't believe the president would lie as blatantly as they did.
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Yes most American born people went through the same. You are not used to see corruption or deceit in the government. Those of us who come from latin america, are used to see corruption as a constant on most of governments. We are usually very suspicious at whatever the politicians say.
 
It's difficult because sometimes war is indeed justified. We are perfectly justified in detroying the Taliban and going after Al Quida.
 
spidergoat said:
It's difficult because sometimes war is indeed justified. We are perfectly justified in detroying the Taliban and going after Al Quida.
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Yes, but it has to be a very specific target, with intelligence and espionage for years, localized. Not to go and drop bombs to kill everybody, including innocents too.

There are terrorist living here in America too who planned attacks or even succeded. They were found with intelligence, they are now being judged and in prisson. Why didn't we bombard them and killed them wherever they were hiding instead??? Because innocent Americans would have been killed right? and that is ot right of course!!

Why didn't we do the same overseas? Iraki people are humans too!!!, they count too!! they are many Iraki children killed too!!! I am sorry NO, NO WAR IS JUSTIFIED, NOT EVEN ONE!!!!
 
That's idiotic. Of course war is sometimes justified. We are not dropping bombs indiscriminately in Afghanistan. America has an infrastructure that is suitable for police work, such an approach cannot work against the army of the Taliban.

In fact, our targeted drone attacks have been highly successful, with a regrettable few being killed accidently.
 
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