An approach to spirituality without God

[yasmin]

Why are you here? You don't answer questions. Are you here just to preach your version of the gospel?

Please read my answer to swarm it applies to you too.

 

[(Q)]

Please read my answer to swarm it applies to you too.

So, you are here to preach. Here are the relevant comments in this thread:

And if you had bothered to pay attention in school...

I do not know much about these things...

 

[yasmin]

Years ago, any therapists would have taken one look at me and put me on lithium. One thing that made the difference for me was starting to think about my psychological health in the same way that I should think about my physiological health. I started paying attention to things that influence my mood, whether it was diet or exercise, lighting, or time spent around other people.

That is great!

I also developed a higher level of control over my thought-patterns: I realized that, when I was thinking unnecessarily angry or hopeless thoughts, I needed to demand a justification for them, or abolish them. I've also found that, between anger and hopelessness, anger is less bad for you. It's not precisely good for you, but it's a better option when you're forced to choose between the two. For example, our mortality is inescapably a raw deal, and it sucks. Be angry. There is no rationalization whatsoever that can make it NOT SUCK, and the more we try to bullshit ourselves over it, the worse we'll ultimately feel about it. It's better, in the long-haul, to have your little tantrum about it, get over it, and start acting mature again. The great thing about anger is that you get over it, and you're behaving like an adult again the next day.

I completelly agree!!

[ QUOTE] But I wouldn't call myself lucky. I was a pretty fucked-up kid, and I'm mature enough to realize now that it was mostly my own god-damned fault. It has taken me over a decade to develop the relatively healthy habits of thinking that I have today, and I'm not perfect even today. I still make mistakes, usually involving taking more upon myself than I am capable of handling. The stress wears me down, I break, and I have to pick up the pieces and build myself back up again..[/QUOTE]

That is great, I truly believe that should we the approach to most aspects of our lives. Now, let me ask you something, what job do you do?
It takes time to elaborate and analize these things, or you figure this out over a long period of time?

The sticking point, though, is this: if you start developing healthy habits of thinking today, you're in for a decade-long litany of trial and error, and it's really hard. I'm not going to joke around or pretend I was somehow different: it was hard for me, particularly given my handicaps. It has to be grown and watered like a plant. Every defensive system needs to be tested with stronger challenges to its validity than you are ever likely to encounter in real life.

Well, that's my spirituality. Some people jog, some people practice Yoga, and those are all well and good. I practice at developing healthy, productive, sturdy habits of thinking, geared toward nourishing my sense of hope and my drive to succeed. Well, that's why I can run ten miles without a break: far and away more important than physical stamina is EMOTIONAL and MENTAL stamina. Bodily aches and pains stemming from exertion don't really mean as much when your mind is at peace. Just remember to drink plenty of water.

Ten years ago, any therapist who had any morals at all would have put me on the lithium without a second-thought. I was one fucked-up, young man, and I was pretty fucked-up for a long time after that. I'm still pulling my shit together even today. You can see, based on some of my tirades on the other forums, just how unstable my emotions can be. You'd have to be myopic not to realize that I DO have times where I can be immature. I try to be better than that, though.

It did, yes. It took a lot of work to build up that relationship, though. Can you envision yourself dedicating five-to-eight hours out of your entire day to winning the affection of one single person? I keep running into people who are whining, day in and day out, that they will never find the one perfect love. It's not something you find. It's something you seed, water, and nurture from the depths of your heart. Every man and every woman out there is imperfect in some way. The longer you know them, the more obvious this will be. That's not about to change. Well, you're an imperfect human being, just like them. But imperfect human beings need loving, too, you know. Aren't you evidence enough for that? Love is a full-time job.

I think I found love as quickly as I did because I started applying the same philosophy toward romance that I applied toward trying to fix myself. It's not going to start out perfect, and it's something that needs to be built, strengthened, and tested over the course of years. You're going to fall down a lot, and you have to pick yourself back up again. No, the falling down isn't great: it sucks. Be angry, have your little tantrum, and start acting like an adult again. I'm not going to make any joke about it: it's a full-time job. If it turns out to be easy for you, you're a better hand at it than myself.

In any case, I think that spirituality, for an atheist, is simply the development of healthy habits of thinking. If you can practic yoga, boxing, meditation, or any form of art, then you can practice at developing healthy habits of thinking. If a sad, selfish, fucked-up kid like I was can do it, then any douchebag can do it.

I think your line of thought and what you have achieved is remarkable! I think you are very intelligent and I hope you somehow are thinking about helping others with bipolar disorder. You could be an excellent counselor, psychologist for these people there is a huge need in that field.

 

[yasmin]

So, you are here to preach. Here are the relevant comments in this thread:

As usual, never an elaborated thought from you right Q? Never risking to have your own set of thoughts. Is easier to let others elaborate and then try to look smart by questioning other people's thoughts. Do you really think you look smart by being cynical?

 

[(Q)]

As usual, never an elaborated thought from you right Q? Never risking to have your own set of thoughts. Is easier to let others elaborate and then try to look smart by questioning other people's thoughts. Do you really think you look smart by being cynical?

One need not "look smart" or even be smart to distinguish your preachy drivel for what it is. Anyone can let their imaginations run amok and pretend to know what they're talking about. Is that what you want me to do?

 

[spidergoat]

Yes, there are several different denominations. All have the same basic theme and its about Jesus and how he sits on the throne of heaven wearing the crown of a king. No one higher or having more power other than the two remaining parts of Jehovah making up the trinity.

The trinity is a concept that did not arrive until much later. The word isn't in the Bible. Saying someone is "king" is only to say that they are great. Of course, all early Christians admired Jesus, but his place in their theology was widely different. The disciple Mary said that the resurrection of Jesus was more of a personal revelation, not a literal rising from the grave. He was more of a teacher, leading disciples to their own revelations about what his teaching meant. The literalistic interpretation is, I feel, a degeneration from the original message.

 

[yasmin]

One need not "look smart" or even be smart to distinguish your preachy drivel for what it is. Anyone can let their imaginations run amok and pretend to know what they're talking about. Is that what you want me to do?

Yes that would have more value, learn from Cockroach in the post above, he is an atheist too yet he took his time used his brain and came up with smart answers for himself and even for others.

There is no merit at all on sitting there and critizicing others while you are unable to provide with a valid alternative. There is no merit on the opinion from "back seat drivers" as I stated before.

I can talk about suffering because I have suffered and struggled alone most of my life. Other in these forums can't talk about suffering simply because they have not suffered enough. They may still be living with their parents, probably not have a job yet, never lost someone they loved very much, never went hungry to the point of being malnurished. What do they know about suffering?

Perhaps you may be able to give an accurate opinion about computers. I can not, because I have no clue about them I am very limmited. What do I do about computer subjects? I ask and learn and observe others, I may still have my own opinions but it would be very arrogant from me to question any one who has more experience than me regarding computers.

I am learning from others in these forums. I am giving and receiving thoughts, concepts,ideas that help me understand more. Is that preaching? it could be? I do not see anything wrong with it.

 

[earth]

The trinity is a concept that did not arrive until much later. The word isn't in the Bible. Saying someone is "king" is only to say that they are great. Of course, all early Christians admired Jesus, but his place in their theology was widely different. The disciple Mary said that the resurrection of Jesus was more of a personal revelation, not a literal rising from the grave. He was more of a teacher, leading disciples to their own revelations about what his teaching meant. The literalistic interpretation is, I feel, a degeneration from the original message.

Okay, I can accept this thinking. What are the differences from the original message causing the degeneration that you recognize? Are you talking about a power struggle? Because I don't recognize a power struggle, Jesus is the head and no christians disagree with that teaching.

The reason for the word trinity is because of the 3 in one God head. The father, the son and the holy spirit. Trinity is a way to describe the God head. The word is well known within the christian faith.

p.s. the computerized machine wants to know where its screwing up.

 

[spidergoat]

The power stuggle occurred by the means of so-called heresy hunters, who went around and destroyed any gospels that didn't teach exactly what the church of Rome wanted to teach. Things like self-empowerment, that an individual didn't need the authority of the church...

Trinity is well known now, but was unknown to the early church.

 

[earth]

The power stuggle occurred by the means of so-called heresy hunters, who went around and destroyed any gospels that didn't teach exactly what the church of Rome wanted to teach. Things like self-empowerment, that an individual didn't need the authority of the church...

Trinity is well known now, but was unknown to the early church.

The teaching is based in Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father except through me.

This is the beginning of the trinity and before that it was unknown.

How does one attain this self-empowerment?

 

[spidergoat]

That could mean many different things. For instance, that anyone who attains the same level of understanding would follow the same path. Not that Jesus is the gatekeeper who requires worship in return for knowledge. It's also debateable if those were his exact words, or if they were added later to secure the exclusive nature of the church as the sole source of knowledge of God.

 

[earth]

That could mean many different things. For instance, that anyone who attains the same level of understanding would follow the same path. Not that Jesus is the gatekeeper who requires worship in return for knowledge. It's also debateable if those were his exact words, or if they were added later to secure the exclusive nature of the church as the sole source of knowledge of God.

I'm going to stop this discussion here. Otherwise one could get the impression that I was defending religion and I’m not.

Your explanation here in this post didn't answer the question how does one attain the empowerment you were speaking of without jesus?

 

[spidergoat]

I don't know. How did he do it? Fasting, prayer, meditation? These practices were not uncommon at the time, in fact Jesus learned them from others.

 

[(Q)]

There is no merit at all on sitting there and critizicing others while you are unable to provide with a valid alternative.

The alternative to nonsense is not something you appear to have any knowledge or understanding. Sorry, can't help you there unless you stop allowing your imagination to rule your worldview.

I can talk about suffering because I have suffered and struggled alone most of my life. Other in these forums can't talk about suffering simply because they have not suffered enough. They may still be living with their parents, probably not have a job yet, never lost someone they loved very much, never went hungry to the point of being malnurished. What do they know about suffering?

And, you see yourself as "special" from everyone else. Typical delusions from the delusional.

Perhaps you may be able to give an accurate opinion about computers. I can not, because I have no clue about them I am very limmited. What do I do about computer subjects? I ask and learn and observe others, I may still have my own opinions but it would be very arrogant from me to question any one who has more experience than me regarding computers.

So what? Are you saying I shouldn't question your delusions because you have more experience with delusions?

 

[spidergoat]

Buddha mentioned suffering frequently, but never proposed that the solution was belief in a supernatural being.

 

[yasmin]

The alternative to nonsense is not something you appear to have any knowledge or understanding. Sorry, can't help you there unless you stop allowing your imagination to rule your worldview.



And, you see yourself as "special" from everyone else. Typical delusions from the delusional.



So what? Are you saying I shouldn't question your delusions because you have more experience with delusions?

Sorry Q, I really tried but you do not get it. Is not imagination is reasoning not delusions is common sense, is intelligence. You obviously cannot make any argument without using derogatory remarks. You are obviously not used to use your brain to solve your problems, as you tend to be very defensive and attack just in case, a very primitive approach comming from a smart person. Sorry, again I can't waste my time any longer...

 

[Cellar_Door]

I've been reading this thread in its entirety, but it's always good to bring matters back to the OP.

...As I went through with life, I figured that suffering and challenges are most of the time constant elements on peoples’ lives with relatively short periods of happiness that depend more on a positive interpretation of the facts than on the quality of the facts themselves.

I couldn't agree more.

As we live trying to deal with our daily problems, we slowly get older and weaker. Life makes us give up on many of our childhood dreams. We might never find real love in our lifetime or we might witness the death of our loved ones. All of this in preparation for the final insult: getting sick and die some day. We are usually aware of our own physical and mental deterioration and of the final end that is awaiting us.

Why do we live? Why do we have to suffer so much in life? What is the point of life when it feels it is like a cruel joke?
I, honestly, believe all of the depressed, bipolar, suicidal people might really have a point; they just do not have the answers. Organized religions fail to give real spiritual guidance to answer these questions. They mainly focus on rules and regulations, fear and punishment. They usually develop systems of power to manipulate their followers most of the time with very materialistic goals, far away from the spiritual world. Some will insist that suffering is the decision of a superior being. In this way they are taking away our responsibility for our own pain, as it occurs some times; and the value of the teaching tool that suffering really represents.

You feel disappointed and cheated because you think life needs to have a purpose.
Why?
Nature is clearly indifferent to suffering. Only humans feel the need to breathe meaning into the meaningless. After all, how else do concious organisms like ourselves, faced with such overwhelming miseries and hardships, maintain the will to survive?
Sadness and happiness in themselves are nothing more than shallow human moods. Suffering is merely the effect that certain random events have on us. "there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

I tried to find answers for these questions and for some confusing paranormal experiences I started having. I’ve never found straight answers from organized religions. I really do not care to know who created us, what his/ her name is, nor how he/she did it. I just need to know why I am here in this world? What am I supposed to be doing here? What is all this seemingly nonsense about?

Again, you seem unwilling to recognise that your questions are unanswerable by default. Asking 'why' assumes that there is a reason.

Why do we have to die?
I have a medical education and I have always been amazed by the perfection of the physiology, chemistry and anatomy of our bodies. The precision of the feedback mechanisms of control to keep us alive, the chemical reactions that take place every second in our bodies so we can continue being alive, all of these processes are simply marvelous. It is hard to believe that spontaneous generation is responsible for this perfection. It even makes one think that perhaps there really is a superior intelligence who has created us. I cannot tell… The only thing I can tell is that whoever created us could have made us eternal if he/she wanted, as he/she definitely has the capacity to do it. Yet, he/she does not want us to be eternal, we are programmed to age and die, therefore aging and dying must be part of this perfection.


Why should our lifetime be limited? What would happen if we were eternal? First, the planet will be overpopulated unable to support all of us; perhaps we will be in eternal wars for the resources (unless we would not need to eat - just like spirits do???). Perhaps wars that started thousands of years ago would continue to this day because nobody would have died. Perhaps Hitler and similar monsters would still be living continuing hurting people who perhaps would suffer eternally because they would never be able to die!

I particularly think that if we were eternal we will be bored to death, even suicidal, I believe with no sense of time there is no motivation to action. Having the awareness of an end gives us a deadline, knowing that we will die one day motivates us to get things done before that happens. Getting older, seen our bodies deteriorating and getting weaker and sicker helps us keep track of time.
Still, I hardly believe all of this effort from nature to bring any being to life and to keep it alive for some time, will be totally wasted by its complete disappearance with death. It would make no sense; nature is too intelligent for such a nonsensical program. Unless death really never happens and is only apparent, affecting only part of us: our physical bodies.

Absolutely nothing is eternal. If planets and stars must someday die, why should insignificant little humans be immortal?

Why do we have to suffer?
Coming from a poor family but having big ambitions, added to the fact that I had to live most of my life alone, I was set up for suffering from the beginning. I have been exposed to numerous challenges, disappointments, struggles, and all sorts of stressful situations. When I compared myself to my siblings and friends who had the same basic traits, socio economic class and opportunities than me, it seemed that they had a better life than mine, with fewer problems and less stress.

When I complained about this difference, my mother made me realize that I had reached and accomplished much more in my professional life than they did. I aimed higher and I reached higher in my career. I, some how, “programmed” my suffering. I could have stayed in my hometown and been like everybody else there with an easy life with not much challenges, but I chose a different path.

I suffered because I needed to develop tools such as emotional resilience, spiritual strength, and professional experience to get me to my destination. Disappointment gives us clues about reality, so we correct our course in time and we are alert and make better choices next time we encounter the same situation.

Loneliness teaches us independence which in turn gives us more freedom. Loneliness give us an appropriate background to speed up our spiritual evolution as we do not have to share successes and failures with anyone, therefore the teaching message is more clear, is all on us. If we are alone we can not blame anyone else for our failures, nor can other person take credit for our successes. Of course life is more difficult, not all of us are evolved enough to spend our lives alone, we usually try to have some one around.
New challenges appear once we are about to master the subject we are learning at a particular time. This is to make us aware of our capacity so we could aim higher in life and keep on growing spiritually speaking. Struggles let us develop persistence and spiritual resilience, both of them crucial to achieve any goals.

In my personal life and economic life I am far away from succeeding. Emotional wounds inherited from my parents, made me develop a wrong pattern of dealing with rejection. I tend to block all the learning process in relationships by easily withdrawing emotionally and focusing my life in my career only.

On the other hand I was born in a culture that dictates that being rich some how makes you a bad person. This wrong message, made me not pay attention to economic matters, feeling all right if I lose money, somehow I looked to be punished for being so greedy. Definitely I developed a wrong attitude towards wealth that originated all of my sufferings in this field. As I refused to grow up about this the lessons were tougher and tougher until I started getting the message.

I am not sure if I will have the time to evolve more in these aspects in this life time, but I will surely keep trying. I know I will continue making mistakes, I will continue suffering; but I have learned that instead of getting sad and angry I have to pay attention to what the teaching point of each stressful situation is. I ask myself what is the universe?/ god? trying to make me understand?

I believe this is the reason for suffering. Only pain makes us pay attention to the teachings of life. Happiness only teaches us when it comes after a long period of suffering. Happiness teaches us about hope. It only comes once in a while so we do not lose hope and so we can keep on suffering and learning.

So why do we live?
I believe we live to evolve spiritually, we are here to learn. Learning is mandatory, it could be an intensive course for some. The easier we learn, the tougher life gets and the more we evolve. We are not here to waste our time, the moment we refuse to grow any more, we would die. If we are in the company of someone who is preventing us from evolving, the person will disappear from our lives. When it is time to learn a new lesson, life will first give us a “soft spank” so we get it. If we disregard or do not get it, the spanking gets stronger and stronger until we finally get it.
I believe the word is a huge school where all of the students are mixed up. With spiritual kinder garden students mixed with spiritual graduate school students. All of the students have something to teach to each other. We may see the life lessons of a kinder garden student and think it is unfairly easy compared to ours. But is seems we are the one who chose our life paths even before we are born.

My paranormal experiences have showed me that the real “us” is not our body; our consciousness is in a place separated from our bodies. Our bodies may be half death or unconscious but “we” are aware, we can hear, see, feel happiness, and be in more than one place at a time if we want to. These experiences allowed me to accept the concept of reincarnation. It makes sense to me that our spirit comes back again and again to the school of life so it can continue evolving.

You stumbled over profundity in the beginning of your post, but quickly got up and hurried away as if nothing had happened.

 

[yasmin]

To Cellar door:
Thank you for your post! I see you do not believe there is a real meaning in living, suffering (and granted it may not really be a meaning there). Now I wonder what is your approach to life? What makes you go out and live day after day? What thoughts keep you balanced and not depressed when you confront the problems you may have?

About your last sentence, I stumbled many times, and I have edited many times this post, I might have deleted something that was important for the post to make sense. I am not sure about the specifics you are referring to, tell me which paragraph are you talking about?

 

[Cellar_Door]

Now I wonder what is your approach to life? What makes you go out and live day after day? What thoughts keep you balanced and not depressed when you confront the problems you may have?

I tend to throw myself head-first into the mundanity of the human experience Most of the time I think: I'm going to die sometime anyway, I might as well milk this small window of opportunity - to feel sensations and emotions, to experience places and meet people and make my mark on the world - for all it's worth. Plus, I do want to be happy and really live my life. What's the alternative?
Nevertheless, when I'm in a particularly bad place, I sometimes think I'm a danger to myself. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually meet my end at my own hands. Especially now someone I once knew quite well did just that a few weeks ago. Life is much harder than death, and sometimes the thought of oblivion sounds quite appealing.

But I had a thoroughly bad night out last night. Probably the worst in my life. So perhaps I shouldn't be debating these kinds of things right now

 

[yasmin]

I tend to throw myself head-first into the mundanity of the human experience Most of the time I think: I'm going to die sometime anyway, I might as well milk this small window of opportunity - to feel sensations and emotions, to experience places and meet people and make my mark on the world - for all it's worth. Plus, I do want to be happy and really live my life. What's the alternative?
Nevertheless, when I'm in a particularly bad place, I sometimes think I'm a danger to myself. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually meet my end at my own hands. Especially now someone I once knew quite well did just that a few weeks ago. Life is much harder than death, and sometimes the thought of oblivion sounds quite appealing.

But I had a thoroughly bad night out last night. Probably the worst in my life. So perhaps I shouldn't be debating these kinds of things right now

I feel completelly identified with what you say. I do exactly the same about having fun whenever I can.

When feeling depressed doing this is exactly what you need to be doing: communicating , elaborating and talking about the problems. Once they are out of your system and on the table things look simpler.

Another thing I do is tell myself at night (when we usually feel more depressed) "tomorrow morning I know I will see this differently, I just have to wait until tomorrow before coming up with any conclusions about this subject in my life..."
I do not know if you are a man or a woman, but there is something else that happens to women only and that I consider totally unfair! When I am too depressed or too sensitive and there is no logical reason for those feelings, I also check the calendar to see if my hormones have something to do with these feelings!

I had no choice but to develop a system to deal with my own problems plus the constant downers at work. I am everyday (and some nights) surrounded by suffering, sickness, death, poverty and human missery. Is really hard to keep yourself balanced....