An approach to spirituality without God

@ swarm:

I am not suggesting you might be a pedophyle! I am just giving an example as how abuse can perpetuate, and could be a basic pattern of behaviours as awfull as that.

One of the most common ways of copping with abuse is rationalyzing that abuse is really the way things are, and if you put up with it every body else should also put up with abuse.

To me, if any one was bullied and did not have the courage to confront his or her abusers at the time, he/she should not be a coward and prey on any perceived weak target that never did any thing to them. The victims of bulling do not have the the right to perpetuate the pattern of abuse, just because you have been bullied you do not have the right to bully others.

Since you are sensitive to what I say or I may imply about you; I want you to go back and read your own posts directed at me and count how many names you have called me, how many times you have made comments that imply me as a bad doctor, a bad person who whould harm atheists, that I should refrain from taking care of these patients, etc. What works for you works for everybody, if you do not like to be told things that may hurt, do not do it to others, the rules work both ways!

The fact that I did not get affected by your comments does not mean they were all right, if you had done this against any one else less strong than me you might have hurt this persons' feelings. I would also like you to read again your comment about me being naive to the internet and the forums and I have not encounter aggression yet. See how well this match with the idea that I need some sort of "initiation" or "hazing" a good bully would do.
You do not have to publically agree with me, I am nobody to judge you, this bulling behavior to me is very commonly the "American way" of doing things, if you were born in other culture where this behaviour is condemned you would have a different perspective. Again, it is no easy to get rid of these patterns. Yet they are still wrong.
 
yasmin said:
I am just giving an example...
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You might want to consider the implications of what you say more closely then. FYI, pedophilia, like other sexual behaviors, seems to not be a learned behavior like you are implying, which is part of the problem treating these people. Child abuse would be a more accurate example of how abuse can perpetuate through generations.

One of the most common ways of copping with abuse is ...
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I don't do that, though from what you said, you seem to be doing that.

To me, if any one was bullied and did not have the courage to confront his or her abusers at the time, he/she should not be a coward and prey on any perceived weak target that never did any thing to them.
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Then why are you dong that?

In particular I find it interesting that you feel it is cowardice not to precipitate a conflict.

It is ironic that you, the theist, cannot understand turning the other cheek aka choosing non violence, as a form of inner strength and courage; and yet I, the non theist, understood this even before I new why it was the correct choice.

The victims of bulling do not have the the right to perpetuate the pattern of abuse, just because you have been bullied you do not have the right to bully others.
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Listen to your own words and apply them to your own actions.

Since you ...
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Not having the courage of your convictions is not the way to convince me I'm incorrect.

When you out right admit atheists suffer emotionally painful deaths under your care, do you really think I should find that acceptable?
 
swarm said:
You might want to consider the implications of what you say more closely then. FYI, pedophilia, like other sexual behaviors, seems to not be a learned behavior like you are implying, which is part of the problem treating these people. Child abuse would be a more accurate example of how abuse can perpetuate through generations.



I don't do that, though from what you said, you seem to be doing that.



Then why are you dong that?

In particular I find it interesting that you feel it is cowardice not to precipitate a conflict.

It is ironic that you, the theist, cannot understand turning the other cheek aka choosing non violence, as a form of inner strength and courage; and yet I, the non theist, understood this even before I new why it was the correct choice.



Listen to your own words and apply them to your own actions.



Not having the courage of your convictions is not the way to convince me I'm incorrect.

When you out right admit atheists suffer emotionally painful deaths under your care, do you really think I should find that acceptable?
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Swarm, again, you are the bully, you are the one who came to this thread and started calling me names after I wrote a post for Mike 47.
I did not direct that comment to you knowing you are and atheist, I did not make that commnet in you in your thread; that is what a bully would do,that is what you do, but I am not like you, again do not project on me your own flaws.

Obviously you are used to transform victims into villains, to justify your own behaviour, but the trick does not work with me. Is interesting to see how you think you can twist the words and come up with statements totally inaccurate just to make a point. Do you really believe this is a helpful trick nobody would notice?

Again,what I said about atheists is what I saw in my experience, and I have not seen all of people who die in hospitals (for your information a dermathologist will probably never see a patient dying, a intensive care specielist or a cancer doctor would see many people dying and that has nothing to do on how good or bad doctors they are,it is a matter of what specialty the doctor has)
You seem to have plenty of time to be on the internet,find out and tell me, refute my statement and tell me what do you find about atheists dying in the hospital!

You put yourself into this situation, do not complain now if you do not like what you hear!
 
yasmin said:
Swarm, again, you are the bully
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No yasmin, "the bully" is just an ad hominum attack that you are resorting to because you can't find a legitimate means to refute my position.

I did not ...
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There is no need to generate all of these excuses for yourself and once more, your psuedo psychoanalysis isn't interesting or appropriate.

refute my statement and tell me what do you find about atheists dying in the hospital!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7949111.stm
People with strong religious beliefs appear to want doctors to do everything they can to keep them alive as death approaches [indicating fear of death and also degrading their end of life experience - my synopsis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11931677
CONCLUSIONS: Negative beliefs about death and superstitious beliefs appear to be positively associated with health anxiety.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/buggle_20_4.html
...contrary to the tendentious assertions put up by numerous studies on the psychology of religion, simply taking advantage of the statistically small number of atheists compared to the relatively great number of strictly religious persons, atheists are less prone to depression than religious persons. Their psychic condition differs most impressively from those who, though quite obviously with a guilty conscience, do not keep the church’s rules, but never seriously analyzed their own religious education and their obviously persistent secret, religion-based convictions. ...

I would say this is a must read for you...
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/george_foote/infidel_deathbeds.html
the "closing scenes" in the lives of many eminent Freethinkers during the last three centuries.
Some inspirational reading for your patients.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2009/08/atheists-are-happy-people-too.php
"The common assumption of greater religiosity relating to greater happiness and satisfaction is overly simplistic," said Luke Galen, an associate professor of psychology at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Mich., and author of the new report.
 
swarm said:
No yasmin, "the bully" is just an ad hominum attack that you are resorting to because you can't find a legitimate means to refute my position.



There is no need to generate all of these excuses for yourself and once more, your psuedo psychoanalysis isn't interesting or appropriate.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7949111.stm
People with strong religious beliefs appear to want doctors to do everything they can to keep them alive as death approaches [indicating fear of death and also degrading their end of life experience - my synopsis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11931677
CONCLUSIONS: Negative beliefs about death and superstitious beliefs appear to be positively associated with health anxiety.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/buggle_20_4.html
...contrary to the tendentious assertions put up by numerous studies on the psychology of religion, simply taking advantage of the statistically small number of atheists compared to the relatively great number of strictly religious persons, atheists are less prone to depression than religious persons. Their psychic condition differs most impressively from those who, though quite obviously with a guilty conscience, do not keep the church’s rules, but never seriously analyzed their own religious education and their obviously persistent secret, religion-based convictions. ...

I would say this is a must read for you...
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/george_foote/infidel_deathbeds.html
the "closing scenes" in the lives of many eminent Freethinkers during the last three centuries.
Some inspirational reading for your patients.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2009/08/atheists-are-happy-people-too.php
"The common assumption of greater religiosity relating to greater happiness and satisfaction is overly simplistic," said Luke Galen, an associate professor of psychology at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Mich., and author of the new report.
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OK Swarm! I am sure when you die, you will be balanced, not affraid of anything. Good for you!:)

Still, in my experience, very few people who have cancer, die athiests most of them convert to christianity before they die. I will not not back off in this statement. I know you would want me to do that, but I will not, that would be lying to make you happy, and I do not submit myself to bullies, as I stated before.

Again, you are the confirmed bully here, in these forums as others have recognized you to be the the one that goes after people, and they even make apologies to justify your arritude. You do this to everybody, so is not just me saying it.

Obviously you will never admit to being a bully, you perfectly know that I am not like you and yet you waste your time, unsuccesfully turning the evidence around, a very childish trick that no one believes. How do you think other people who read these posts see you?

Therefore not only you are a bully, but also you will also never change as you are unwilling to admit to it. Those bullies who hurt you have brainwashed you and you are now like them, you are one of them now, shame on you!

I know you will continue comming here and I will always answer you until you get it. Why? mainly because I think of other people you might be bulling around at this time, and I do not want you to promote your behaviour among others.

Bullies should be exposed, embarrased and rejected from any group or society, so the world can be better one day....
 
If people follow spirituality without a God and without a religion; it just opens the doors for every person to have his or her own God and his or her own religion based on pure imagination .
 
mike47 said:
If people follow spirituality without a God and without a religion; it just opens the doors for every person to have his or her own God and his or her own religion based on pure imagination .
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It opens the doors? Dude, there has always been a big gaping hole where you think is a door.
 
mike47 said:
If people follow spirituality without a God and without a religion; it just opens the doors for every person to have his or her own God and his or her own religion based on pure imagination .
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Yes this is basically the concept. But it is not based on pure imagination, is based on our own sense of right and wrong.

For instance there are a lot of unethical acts that occur every day by people who may not be specifically addressed by the religious books. For instance: cowardice, hypocrisy, mendacity to manipulate people around to get a benefit, this include women who seek a pregnancy to get a "good catch", then they would get married by the catholic church, using and accomodating, twisting the rules at their convenience.

The cowardice and hypocrisy of those who "look the other way" or refuse to speak up to protect a victim while they know a crime was been commited, deeply inside they know they are doing something wrong. And I doubt the bible says anything in a straight forward way about this... ( even if this is said the message not always gets through believe me!)

I believe most of us now are ready to go beyond an organized religion, I believe humanity has evolved enough to "know"right from wrong without a God or a book telling you those things. At this time, I believe most organized religions are preventing people from spiritual evolution. I do not have to tell you all of the inmoral, illegal and criminal acts that are currently been commited in the name of religions, people must have their own sense of right and wrong, no matter what their religion says.

But I also believe not everybody is ready for this approach and still need to check with some religion to know what to do. Again, I am all right with that as long as they do not get brainwashed so they have to kill themselves or others, I am all right.
 
yasmin said:
OK Swarm! I am sure when you die, you will be balanced, not affraid of anything. Good for you!:)
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Its always hard to know what will happen but hopefully I will have people who support me instead of trying to make me second guess my life and convert me to their religion while I'm vulnerable.

Still, in my experience, very few people who have cancer, die athiests most of them convert to christianity before they die. I will not not back off in this statement. I know you would want me to do that, but I will not, that would be lying to make you happy, and I do not submit myself to bullies, as I stated before.
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So they convert to xtianity eh? Funny they don't convert to islam or hinduism or paganism. How odd that they convert to your religion. :rolleyes:

You are the bully.

You just can't avoid the pop psych attacks can you?
 
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swarm said:
Its always hard to know what will happen but hopefully I will have people who support me instead of trying to make me second guess my life and convert me to their religion while I'm vulnerable.



So they convert to xtianity eh? Funny they don't convert to islam or hinduism or paganism. How odd that they convert to your religion. :rolleyes:

You are the bully.

You just can't avoid the pop psych attacks can you?
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I did not see any convertion to other religions at least not where I live. I might have seen here 5 muslims in this city, I would say here 98% of people are catholics? christians? (I do not know the difference) i think this may have something to do with it.

You can call me bully but you know, I know and every body knows the truth.
Sorry you lost, I have proven how you are a bully and why you are a bully.

Now, I imagine bullies would never admit publically to being a bully. I have never seen one doing it. If they had some degree of humility perhaps they would't be bullies to begin with. :shrug:

So swarm, you do not have to admit to me that you are a bully, it wouldn't be you if you did.
But i want to clarify something, the fact that you lost with me is not because I am a bully is because I am strong and smart. Strong people would confront someone stronger if necessary and the struggle might make them stronger.

Bullies are cowards, weak people that happen to find themselves in a position of power such as the anonimity of the internet in this case?and therefore they abuse it. They would look for relationships with weak people only so they can be in control.

You might have the wrong idea that the only ones who can win in life are the bullies, that is why you adopted their ways, but that is not true, I have seen big powerful bullies falling and ending with very bruised egoes in the hands of perceived "weak" people like me.

Bullies chose to harrass others they perceive as weak. I am not sure why they do this, perhaps they have been so traumatized when they were the victims of bullying that they coped by trying to justify their abusers identifying with them. This is a very common way people cope with suffering.

Of course deeply inside they know they are wrong and perhaps this is why they need to repeat the situation of abuse again and again until they can have a closure. Or they have a wake up call: either some one gives them a good lesson they would never forget or they end up in jail.
 
mike,

If people follow spirituality without a God and without a religion; it just opens the doors for every person to have his or her own God and his or her own religion based on pure imagination .
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Well yeah. There are some 3000 documented gods that have been invented over the past few millenia, or on average about 1 god a year.
 
yasmin,

What is this bulllying BS? Give it up. Swarm is very mild compared to many others here. His strong arguments do not constitute bullying.
 
Cris
I am not the only one that have this impression it seems he has been doign this to other people before.
Please read all of swarms posts in this thread. He came to this thread and interfered with my answer to someone else started calling me names trying to insult me, unwilling to give up.Hre he has behaved like a typicall bully, he knows what I am talking about.

When I started in these forums I wanted to read about some Paranormal experiences and I found that one thread was cancelled, as per request of its poster and they reccomended that people should not be that aggressive.I do not know what happened but I am almost sure swarm, Q and others may have something to do with that. No one has the right to harrass others to that point.
Swarm chose the wrong target to bully, he came here again and again for more, I did not go after him to his thread. If he did not like it he did not need to show up here any longer. The fact that others are worse does not make him behaviour good! Please people whre are your ethical values????
 
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