Nope.
An approach to spirituality without God
- Thread starter yasmin
- Start date
Nope.
Apparently you do.
You are more than welcome to. What did you think all this is about?
You have no understanding of non believers and no respect for them. You should not be making their deaths worse than they have to be. You will lie for god or lie for purple dragons, but you shit on the truth.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Oh well, your loss.
What makes you feel entitled to demand anything from other people? Most of my friends are atheists, I have never seen anyone so agressive about trying to prove their point. I have explained already about my comments on the paranormal, read above previous posts, I am not going waste my time explaining to you the same thing.
For your comments about me making people's death worse I can tell how you are projecting onto me what you would do in my situation. I make my living helping others, I have compassion for people, I do not cricify, bully or harrass those who have a different opinion, I am not like you and I am glad of that!!!
I am not afraid to have a religion or to believe in a superior being as I have done it in the past, because I have no problems being judged for my actions one day if that is what is going to happen in case god exist (which I doubt).
Why are you so obsessed and aggressive trying to prove the non existence of god? Do you know agressiveness means fear? What are you afraid of? What have you done or are you doing to be so scared? Are you afraid that a God might exist and you might have to pay for whatever you are doing or you did one day?
Or are you still bleeding because of my post in your thread about the fact that we humans have a limited perception of reality and therefore nobody can decide that just because at this time something can not be proven it does not mean it does not exist? Is you ego still too wounded?
In any case, go look for a psychologist, who can help you deal with your psychological traumas, fears, guilt, anger or whatever is behind your abnormal attitude. I am a physician, I can not help you with these problems.
By the way, your attitude is exactly the same than that of the muslims who want my death because I said that I do not care who god is, what his name is, etc. With your behaviour you are really proving you are NOT better in any way than these muslims are, your cause is losing ground Sorry!:shrug:
Only if you won't explain yourself.
Would you rather I expect a lot of you, or expect little?
Then if they are your friends, show respect for their understanding. Or if you are incapable of that, then at least have a modicum of faith in your "superior being" that it is not so stupid as to let good people suffer, or even bad people for that matter.
I'm a light weight. I merely up hold my side of the conversation. You've obviously yet to encounter some one really aggressive.
Your "explanations" proved insufficient and unpersuasive. If you want to leave it at that, that's fine.
Read this sentence into a mirror and then consider if you really don't "cricify, bully or harrass those who have a different opinion."
Then consider if you actually have the least shred of respect for the atheists or if you are projecting your theistic fears on to their last days.
Whatever.
Why are you so afraid of what I do? Why do you see your fears in me?
Don't be ridiculous. I'm not trying to prove the non existence of god.
Do you know trying to psychoanalyze strangers you disagree with is just insecurity and defensiveness?
My! I seem to have invoked super passive aggressive attack mode. We'll just skip to the end.Well except for not wanting your death, or your conversion or caring about god, geez are you as sloppy in everything as you are in your analogies?
@swarm:
1) You asssume an attitude of entitlement as if you had some kind of authority upon me that is totally out of place. Again your intolerance is no different than that of the most fanatic religious people such as that of the muslims described in my post.
2) Again, I did not go to your thread and tell you what I think about atheists. You interfered with my message to Mike47, you came here to bully me. You are the bully not me.
3) I have already admitted at the beginning of the thread that my paranormal experiences could be described as delusions, and that I do not base my arguments on them because I can not understand them and I have no control upon them.
4) I have already told you since your post have more aggressiveness than any thing else, no intelligent exchange could come up from our interaction, there is no point in continuing it. I do not need to learn how to be harrased.
Since you are mentioning that I still do not know what real agressivenes is I magine you are not through with me and since I do not submit myself to bullies; I think we have exhausted all resources to solve our differences, therefore this relationship needs to end..... geez where did I hear this before?
1) You asssume an attitude of entitlement as if you had some kind of authority upon me that is totally out of place. Again your intolerance is no different than that of the most fanatic religious people such as that of the muslims described in my post.
2) Again, I did not go to your thread and tell you what I think about atheists. You interfered with my message to Mike47, you came here to bully me. You are the bully not me.
3) I have already admitted at the beginning of the thread that my paranormal experiences could be described as delusions, and that I do not base my arguments on them because I can not understand them and I have no control upon them.
4) I have already told you since your post have more aggressiveness than any thing else, no intelligent exchange could come up from our interaction, there is no point in continuing it. I do not need to learn how to be harrased.
Since you are mentioning that I still do not know what real agressivenes is I magine you are not through with me and since I do not submit myself to bullies; I think we have exhausted all resources to solve our differences, therefore this relationship needs to end..... geez where did I hear this before?
@swarm:
Since you are mentioning that I still do not know what real agressivenes is I magine you are not through with me and since I do not submit myself to bullies; I think we have exhausted all resources to solve our differences, therefore this relationship needs to end..... geez where did I hear this before?
Don't take it personally yasmin, swarm is like that with all non-atheists... It's just his way of showing affection!
You ask the deepest questions which I think every spiritual path and every religion is attempting to answer! For that reason, I disagree with Mike47 that science will eventually replace religion - science has no helpful answers to provide meaning for our lives, even if it can make them more comfortable.
1) Why are we here?
2) Why do we suffer?
3) Why do we die?
Perhaps the answer to 1) is working out our own answers to 2) and 3)! Certainly it seems that suffering can make us either more compassionate or more embittered. Perhaps 1) is also to appreciate every moment of living! I very much agree with what you say about our own attitudes causing us suffering. I hope you find the answer!
Thank you Diogenes dog. Let's leave Swarm aside. I imagine you are kidding about agression as a way of showing affection, but I' ve heard that before from people who were not kidding.
I think that idea is at the basis of some dysfunctional relationships like sadistic-masochist (spelling?) wich are also a source of suffering some people tend to attract to themselves.
Sorry, I think that deserves another thread in another section.., i'll work on that idea!
You assume way too much based on a few interactions. Try relaxing a bit. This is just a discussion.
I would advise against projecting your previous experiences onto strangers.
That's a shame. It might have been interesting.
If you have issues with bullying you have my sympathy, I've been there myself. Perhaps you should seek couciling? A rough and tumble internet forum is not particularly nurturing and supportive. This might not be the right place for you at this time. Whatever you decide I wish you peace with it.
Paranormal experiences are not that uncommon. I've had a number of them myself and finding that sort of thing interesting, I've also investigate some mystic states (for lack of a better word).
I found that attempting to force them in to preconceptions, like "god," was unwarranted. Approaching it with a "I don't know" additude showed my just how much what I thought I was finding colored the experience and limited me.
Concluding "god" based on "I can not understand them" seems at best premature.
You are of course free to act as you see fit, as am I.
Your paranoia is unwarrented. I was merely mentioning that you are obviously internet naive if you find these difficult conversations. There are far worse people than myself in terms of aggresiveness.
Actually I am as I am with everybody. Theists just tend to say more goofy stuff.
I would have to disagree. Science is addressing all those questions, its just their answers are actual answers and so not so fluffy for the ego.
We are here because the conditions were favorable for us to evolve at this point.
We suffer because we are fragile and imperminant and aware of this.
We die because evolving death was more advantagous to the species than not dying. (In the far distant past there was a point where like our distant cousins the ameoba, we never died. We actuall had to evolve death as a means of removing previous generations.)
This forum can get rough at times, and people get aggressive as their views get challenged. It usually means you are winning the debate!
swarm said:
Could be a good debate on that one... Do we attract our suffering?yasmin said:
So, the ultimate purpose of our lives is evolutionary: the proliferation of our genes? I doubt it! That may be true for many animals but I don't see that being enacted in our human way of life. Some people have no children, others adopt, others are celibate, yet others voluntarily sacrifice their lives to save a stranger. Evolutionary theory is no longer a good predictor of our behaviour as humans. I think even Dawkins has written that we have escaped the constraints of our evolutionary legacy.swarm said:
Because we are self-aware, I think we have other purposes to do with non gene-directed goals such as happiness, life-satisfaction, ethical values, altruism etc. none of which is catered for by scientific models.
...and evolution has provided us with a toolkit of sensations such as pain, because it helped our ancestors survive. However, the more difficult (and interesting) question is: What will sustain us through unavoidable suffering? Because it is to do with purpose, I don't see science as providing any answers there either. That is the domain of religion and spirituality e.g. Buddhism's 4 Noble truths, or the Crucifixion, or the Book of Job - all address the problem of suffering.swarm said:
Again, true, but unhelpful in coping with grief, or facing our own unavoidable death. Religion and psychotherapy are far more helpful to people than science in coming to terms with death.swarm said:
To swarm:
Great! I've got it! Sorry for the cheap psychoanalysis that you did not ask for. But since you are still here let me tell you what I think: those who bullied you have influenced you to the point to make you believe that bulling is all OK, and is not, this is the basis of your aggression.
I have been bullied since I can remember, the bullies always looked at me as an easy target: I have most of the time been poorer than the people around me, alone with no relatives around, small frame, female and brain washed since childhood to please others, you can't get a better target than that!
Because of that constant harrassement I became stronger, and developed more compassion towards those who are abused or victimized, obsessed to react against the abusers. This has lead me to start endless personal wars against people, intitutions, etc. there are abusers everywhere. Did I accomplished something? I am not sure.
I decided to have this attitude towards abuse because initially after this started I became cynical not trusting anyone, but then when I realized I'd missjudged nice people who did not deserve that, I felt very guilty and I convinced myself that: "the worse harm a bad person can do to me is to make me like him or her".
Many pedophyles have been themselves the victims of sexual abuse when they were children and they "learned" that that is all right, so they continue doing it. It is hard to take those "programs" out of our heads.
I really have no problem with atheists, I have a problem with intolerance and bullying. Our differences are not based on being an athiest or not.
Great! I've got it! Sorry for the cheap psychoanalysis that you did not ask for. But since you are still here let me tell you what I think: those who bullied you have influenced you to the point to make you believe that bulling is all OK, and is not, this is the basis of your aggression.
I have been bullied since I can remember, the bullies always looked at me as an easy target: I have most of the time been poorer than the people around me, alone with no relatives around, small frame, female and brain washed since childhood to please others, you can't get a better target than that!
Because of that constant harrassement I became stronger, and developed more compassion towards those who are abused or victimized, obsessed to react against the abusers. This has lead me to start endless personal wars against people, intitutions, etc. there are abusers everywhere. Did I accomplished something? I am not sure.
I decided to have this attitude towards abuse because initially after this started I became cynical not trusting anyone, but then when I realized I'd missjudged nice people who did not deserve that, I felt very guilty and I convinced myself that: "the worse harm a bad person can do to me is to make me like him or her".
Many pedophyles have been themselves the victims of sexual abuse when they were children and they "learned" that that is all right, so they continue doing it. It is hard to take those "programs" out of our heads.
I really have no problem with atheists, I have a problem with intolerance and bullying. Our differences are not based on being an athiest or not.
To diogenes dog:
I believe there is evolution of our bodies and of our souls I think swarm is referring to the soul. I am not sure.
I believe some times we attract our suffering, it seems the mind is like a computer that gets "frozen" when there is an unresolved problem unable to continue and put the individual again and again under simmilar circumstances to give it another chance to finally solve the problem.
This is in my humble understanding, the basis of phychlogical traumas. Our subconsious mind tends to recreate the circumstances that originated that trauma so we can resolve it. This would explain why most abused women come from homes where abuse was the rule and tend to get involved with abusive men over and over. I have no time now but I will start a new thrend about this...
I believe there is evolution of our bodies and of our souls I think swarm is referring to the soul. I am not sure.
I believe some times we attract our suffering, it seems the mind is like a computer that gets "frozen" when there is an unresolved problem unable to continue and put the individual again and again under simmilar circumstances to give it another chance to finally solve the problem.
This is in my humble understanding, the basis of phychlogical traumas. Our subconsious mind tends to recreate the circumstances that originated that trauma so we can resolve it. This would explain why most abused women come from homes where abuse was the rule and tend to get involved with abusive men over and over. I have no time now but I will start a new thrend about this...
Me too yasmin. However I don't think swarm believes in a soul!
I think you are right, and we try to complete unresolved gestalts. Look forward to the thread (I'm away for the next few days though)!
Hey dog, do you believe in a soul?
Or, just completely delusional.
Nope. Sheer nonsense.
Only the ignorant would provide such statements of ignorance.
What unavoidable suffering, exactly?
So, delusion is the answer to unavoidable suffering?
Religion has the opportunity to offer an eternity of hellfire, how the fuck is that "coming to terms with death?"
No. Were are here because the conditions were favorable for us to evolve at this point. Purposes are things we create for ourselves so it is not possible for them to have preceded us nor could there be an "ultimate" one.
You think humans don't have sex and caring for their young as a major force in their lives? :bugeye:
The same occurs in other species. It is particularly prevalent in social insects.
You seem to have some misconceptions about what evolutionary theory is. I would recommend this site: http://www.talkorigins.org/
But a lot of our behavior is being found to be genetically driven, far more than we originally thought.
This would hardly be the first time I disagree with him, he isn't god you know.
But there is only one way to escape natural selection - extinction.
We are hardly the only self aware animals. Our differences are far more a matter of degree than a matter of novelty.
That is also being researched and the research is bearing fruits.
It happens. Don't worry about it, I'm not easily offended.
But you really should have at least a paragraph between apologizing and going right back into it!
Oh, the irony.
I was bullied simply because I refused to fight back. Eventually I decided I should learn anyway and studied various forms of combat and self defense, but decided that I had it correct in the beginning and returned to my previous stance with a modification, I know I can fight back if I so choose now.
An entertaining, at least for me, side effect is that most people who know me are quite surprised to learn I'm trained as a French commando. But I'm pretty satisfied with how things have turned out, thanks for your concern.
Do you not see reflected here what you were trying to pin on me?
Since you seem concerned let me say that I'm at peace. I'm not obsessed to react against anything. I have no endless personal wars against anything or any one. I lack the paranoia that there are "abusers" every where.
You are still inside the cycle of us and them. You cannot fight for peace. You can only not fight and thus be peaceful.
I find it very odd that you bring this otherwise unrelated topic up. If this is also an issue for you, I would definately suggest the help of a professional.