Abortion

[Omega133]

Denial of what?

I don't think denial of anything is involved. It simply requires awareness and making a choice, and is the right of the woman in that position.

Denial of responsibility. If you have sex you accept the fact that you could create a child. Yet you do it anyway. Then when something goes wrong you take the easy way out. That is denial of responsibility. The responsibility that you have to that baby you just created, wether you want it or not it's now your responsibility to take care of it.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

But to be blunt, we are all adults and we know how babies get made. To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial.

If you have sex you accept the fact that you could create a child. Yet you do it anyway. Then when something goes wrong you take the easy way out. That is denial of responsibility. The responsibility that you have to that baby you just created, wether you want it or not it's now your responsibility to take care of it.

Do ether of you suport the use of the mornin after pill... or birf-control pills... both of which can kill a fertalized egge.???

 

[Neverfly]

Do ether of you suport the use of the mornin after pill... or birf-control pills... both of which can kill a fertalized egge.???

Strangely, I don't really disagree with that.

All people will draw their lines of tolerance somewhere and Mine's a bit past that.

Some feel that if it can develop into a being, it must not be touched and therefor-- the Safe route is to consider conception the beginning. But then, you could take that further to the egg and sperm...
That's more than I can justify inside of my brain.

I really should not have used the word "Zygote" so much. Others kept using it so I latched onto it.
Sorry about that...


Omega133:

Thanks for expanding on that. I had limited time earlier and just typed a quickie.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do ether of you suport the use of the mornin after pill... or birf-control pills... both of which can kill a fertalized egge.???

Strangely, I don't really disagree with that.

I wont call it hypocritical... but It does seem a bit inconsistent wit you'r prevous statment:::

"To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial."

Woud you like to "soften" that statment or do you still stan by it.???

 

[Neverfly]

I wont call it hypocritical... but It does seem a bit inconsistent wit you'r prevous statment:::

"To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial."

Woud you like to "soften" that statment or do you still stan by it.???

Not really. As I already said- People draw their lines of tolerance in different places.

Going by your claim now, one could say if I say Birth Control prior to sex is ok- I am hypocritical because that's the easy way out.
Well, it isn't. It's prevention.

I do not draw the line at Conception itself for the same reasons that those who are pro-choice in this thread have said: It's so early on that one really cannot claim much at that point.
The Morning after is not that long. The body OFTEN expells fertilized eggs.

What bothers me is when a woman (Or man vicariously) finds out about pregnancy and gets all indecisive and finally opts (Or quickly) for abortion without considering that a "Life" is sacrificed for it.

In order to take a life, one must value and respect life.

If a person takes life without valuing life-- I find they are not healthy... But that's a topic that could expand into a whole thread. It's a bit more Native talk from me...

Let's be realistic. How many abortions deal with a Zygote of four cells?
I imagine very few. A pill will do that job. I DID Say I should not have used that word so frivilously...

Abortions are primarily used much further along in the pregnancy.

So it isn't that I draw a line at Conception. A woman taking the Morning After pill is basically practicing prevention, as I see it.

 

[Bells]

To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial.

Do you consider having a surgical procedure, with all its associated risks, as being the easy way out?

What bothers me is when a woman (Or man vicariously) finds out about pregnancy and gets all indecisive and finally opts (Or quickly) for abortion without considering that a "Life" is sacrificed for it.

A life is also sacrificed when you take antibiotics to combat a bacterial infection.

Deciding to have an abortion is not an easy decision to make. There is this belief that women just decide to have one. It does not work that way and abortion clinics will counsel women about their 'decision' before they actually go ahead with the procedure.

In order to take a life, one must value and respect life.

Do you think life begins at conception?

And how does your stance on this issue fall in with natural abortions (miscarriage)?

If a person takes life without valuing life-- I find they are not healthy... But that's a topic that could expand into a whole thread. It's a bit more Native talk from me...

And I think having a child one does not want is just as unhealthy, if not more so.

So it isn't that I draw a line at Conception. A woman taking the Morning After pill is basically practicing prevention, as I see it.

Which does not really fall in with what you have stated thus far. The morning after pill can and will destroy a "Life", if she has conceived or is about to conceive.

 

[Kennyc]

Denial of the "Nothing Parasite" involved.

Okay, that didn't come across to me from what you said and I'm not sure it's relevant in any case.

 

[Kennyc]

Denial of responsibility. If you have sex you accept the fact that you could create a child. Yet you do it anyway. Then when something goes wrong you take the easy way out. That is denial of responsibility. The responsibility that you have to that baby you just created, wether you want it or not it's now your responsibility to take care of it.

I don't agree at all. Yes there is a responsibility, a decision to be made if the result is a pregnancy but by choosing to abort IS taking responsibility.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Denial of responsibility. If you have sex you accept the fact that you could create a child. Yet you do it anyway. Then when something goes wrong you take the easy way out. That is denial of responsibility. The responsibility that you have to that baby you just created, wether you want it or not it's now your responsibility to take care of it.

Um, really?

Why is it my responsibility to have it, even if it consists of 12 cells, even if I conceived LAST WEEK?

Sorry, it's my body. I don't owe it to anyone to have a baby.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Edit to add:

VI-- I appreciate your commentary. Rant follows that I typed out before I read the replies following my last.




Now that I've had all day long working out in the heat...

I'd like to point out a few things.

"Hypothetical Zygote." :
The problem with the Zygote is this... My Kidney is a biological yet 'inanimate' object. It has no consciousness. Yet, if someone sucked it out of me, I'd die.
If a kidney was lying around on a table and some guy mutilated it- That is not a crime. Although they may try to figure out where he got the kidney from...
The Kidney cannot Develop. It shows the same characteristics as a parasite, one might even say. All my organs do.
\
If a kidney is used for cloning- fine. One can still say it's an inanimate object. Even so-- We can see that a Kidney is not a parasite or just some old THING.

And a kidney is not even a zygote. A zygote is composed of stem cells. Which are very different.
These cells can be directed to become any kind of cell. They develop into something MORE. Clearly, this is no more a "thing" than a kidney is. It's much more complex than a kidney is. It's not limited as a kidney is.

Yet, it's so EASY to forget that it seems. Calling it "potential" or whatever and people get upset because of that? Why Deny That Reality? Just to favor your own argument?

I can think of many reasons why it may be necessary to abort. And why it may be necessary to hold that zygote in stark comparison to the life that already exists.

But for a figure?

No matter how you dice it, a zygote is not a rock. Not a parasite or a bedside table. It is far more than that even if it's in the process of developing and growing. As I said- I am 31. And I am still going through that process.

I don't think it takes a whole lot of humanity to respect it for what it is.

It may not be fully developed. It may be a blob of goo. Obviously it Must Start as Something...
But to respect it for what it is means to care for it enough to treat it with the respect that it deserves. I can see necessary abortions. I can see saving lives. I can see necessity but... I cannot see selfishness or self serving interest as Valid Enough to destroy it. To forget. To pretend it is Nothing.

Yes, I got a girl pregnant at 25. Yes, I was scared. Yes, I was unready.
Was abortion an option?
Absolutely Not.

I got my ass ready and stepped up to bat.
Maybe others can adopt out. But to be blunt, we are all adults and we know how babies get made. To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial.

So basically - correct me if I got you wrong - you feel that since a zygote/blastula/embryo/delete as appropriate, is a potential human, you feel it deserves respect and shouldn't be sucked out for no good reason?

I can appreciate your feeling of respect for the fact that it's a potential human and not just any old blob of gelatine. But why is it 'sacred' in its own right?

If it's not yet conscious, if it is just one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastula or these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tubal_Pregnancy_with_embryo.jpg...why does the woman owe it so much? Why is it important in its own right?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I wont call it hypocritical... but It does seem a bit inconsistent wit you'r prevous statment:::

"To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial."

Woud you like to "soften" that statment...

Not really.

Going by your claim now, one could say if I say Birth Control prior to sex is ok- I am hypocritical because that's the easy way out.
Well, it isn't. It's prevention.

One coud say that but its irrelevent cause its not my argument... a condom cant kill a fertalized egge... the mornin after pill can.!!!

Killin a human at its earliest stage makes it jus as dead as if its killed at 6 weeks or 6 mounthes after concepton.!!!

I do not draw the line at Conception itself for the same reasons that those who are pro-choice in this thread have said: It's so early on that one really cannot claim much at that point.

Im pro-choise but that ant my argument... im sayin Its odd that you... who are agans a pregnant woman chooin to kill the human growin inside her unless its at its earliest stage of life :shrug:

The Morning after is not that long. The body OFTEN expells fertilized eggs.

Wit that line of reasonin... killin the early-human weeks after concepton woud also be oK sinse miscarrage can also occur weeks after concepton.!!!

What bothers me is when a woman (Or man vicariously) finds out about pregnancy and gets all indecisive and finally opts (Or quickly) for abortion without considering that a "Life" is sacrificed for it.

In order to take a life, one must value and respect life.

If a person takes life without valuing life-- I find they are not healthy...

So you consider the people who choose to take a mornin after pill (if the rubber brakes) for the purpos of sacrificen a life they dont want to be bothered wit... as valuin life an bein healthy.???

Let's be realistic. How many abortions deal with a Zygote of four cells?

I imagine very few. A pill will do that job.

Abortions are primarily used much further along in the pregnancy.

I woud guess that the mornin after pill kills at leas hundreds of early stage humans a year but my argument stans even if it only kills 1 per year... ie... its odd that you are oK wit the use of the mornin after pill to kill a human life.!!!

So it isn't that I draw a line at Conception. A woman taking the Morning After pill is basically practicing prevention, as I see it.

Along that line of reasonin... lets jus define aborton as "prevention" agans havin children you dont want then everbody shud be hapy... NOT.!!!

 

[Neverfly]

So basically - correct me if I got you wrong - you feel that since a zygote/blastula/embryo/delete as appropriate, is a potential human, you feel it deserves respect and shouldn't be sucked out for no good reason?

Yes.

I'm not saying it should never happen. But that it should be a carefully weighed decision as Bells had claimed above. The problem is that statistically, there ARE quite a few women that use it as an easy way out.

We're getting all these cross references of abortions to miscarriages... and such- Obviously a miscarriage is not an Intentional and Premeditated abortion. There is a difference between something happening and people involving themselves to make it happen.

Morning after and such... You know what-- No matter how clear I try to make myself, someone need only twist my words or claim I was not clear. I really don't care.
My OPINION (Ok? Not a scientific statement) is that a person preventing pregnancy is entirely different from a person deliberately removing a life that has begun.
Yes-- I think that a few cells should be respected but in all honesty -- It would be for what they represent- not what they are at that moment.
It is not a person, though it will become one. And does not carry the respect granted to a person.

Do those few cells carry more value than the mother? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If a mothers life is in danger (For some odd reason) and the choice comes up to sacrifice those cells or thte mom- them cells gotsta go.

I can appreciate your feeling of respect for the fact that it's a potential human and not just any old blob of gelatine. But why is it 'sacred' in its own right?

I tend to multi-task and post quickly. People also are likely to skim or skip very long posts. So it's difficult to convey a lot of complex thoughts in posts.
I seem to have given an impression. I'm trying to clarify--
I do not see a zygote as "Sacred."
Bear in mind the Native American viewpoint that I follow: All life is precious and to be respected. This includes respecting the lives you take. But merit of respect is the same as granted for peers. I will respect an honorable man far more than a dishonorable man, and hope the dishonorable man can be taught.
I will respect a human far more than I will an oppossum. And I have respect for bacteria least of all. I respect bacteria as Living things. We use them to better our lives, even. I will kill bacteria to clean my hands and prevent illness. Because my health carries more weight than does the bacteria.

So having respect for a zygote means that a person understands what it is- a transitional shade of gray, a process of development. Not a "nothing" but not a person.
Australopithecus afarensis is transitional between ape and human. I can respect Australopithecus afarensis but not as much as I would a Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

An expectant mother carrying a child that decides to abort a FETUS is what upsets me.
Taking that line of reasoning a Wee Bit Further means that it's Not That Difficult to avoid pregnancy.

To casually dismiss or destroy a developing life does not strike me as a healthy mindset.

I admitted twice now that bitterness over a particular post influenced some of my reactions and posts. I apologize for this. It's just that I'm not just a parent- I'm one that's protective and crazy about my kid. It's been acknowledged already that it struck a nerve, it's been addressed and frankly, everyone can get up off my back about it.

If it's not yet conscious, if it is just one of these <links>...why does the woman owe it so much? Why is it important in its own right?

It's not that she Owes it so much. But it, to me, deserves healthy consideration.
If a woman learns she's 2 weeks pregnant and after careful consideration, decides she must abort- I cannot hold that against her. I certainly don't think the law should.
If a woman carries it 7 months and decides to abort because she doesn't want to give up her nightlife party lifestyle- I'll think she's an utter piece of shit.
There aren't blanket policies or general statements I can make.
It's like spanking children. While I might consider one parent who spanks a good parent, I might find a different one to be abusive.
It's not all cut and dry.

If she owes it something- it's a healthy respect for what it ACTUALLY is and what it represents. I cannot see losing even a zygote as being a casual thing. Losing a hair follicle can be. It's NEVER going to be conscious. But in a few short months, a zygote WILL be. That carries More Weight.

My own son is only what he is Right Now. But i know he will grow and develop. Who knows what he might become, but it's always there in the back of my mind. Not many things in life are like that. Most are fleeting. Most are intangible. But these few things are like that and that carries weight.

None of us posting here would be here if all our "Zygotes" had been tossed carelessly and casually aside. Clearly, unlike rocks that are unconscious, this is an item that bears more weight than a Rock. Less than a human, OF COURSE. But more than a rock. I'm biased and I know it. I look at my own son and think about what if that had been extinguished before he even had a chance.
That chance carries weight. And we all deal with daily decisions that work this way. The weight and merit or our choices.

So let's say a woman has been raped by her father.
She is impregnated and a week or so later considers her options: Bear the child and adopt him/her out or abort.
In either case, her situation will determine what she will choose. It is, after all, not her body alone at stake. But the dveloping life within her.
If her suffering is Greater than that of the unconscious zygote, she must abort.
However, if her resolve is strong enough to understand what that zygote will become, she may bear that child.
In each case, the weight of that zygote remains the same. What is IS and what it WILL be.
But the weight of all the circumstances bear their weight as well. And they can outweigh a zygote.
If she carries the child til 7 months later, the weight of the item within her has increased Dramatically and the choice is no longer balanced the same.


Clueleshusband--- I'm not going to bother detangling that post you wrote. Maybe this one might answer whatever concerns you raised in your post. If not- Oh well.

 

[Bells]

Neverfly, that is obviously your personal opinion.

Now, do you think that all should believe as you do? Should individuals be able to choose for themselves which path they take or, more importantly, whether they keep the child or not?

Would you judge someone or label them a murderer for having an abortion, for example? Or would you respect the right of the individual woman to choose what is best for herself without outside interference or pressure?

 

[Neverfly]

Neverfly, that is obviously your personal opinion.

Now, do you think that all should believe as you do? Should individuals be able to choose for themselves which path they take or, more importantly, whether they keep the child or not?

Would you judge someone or label them a murderer for having an abortion, for example? Or would you respect the right of the individual woman to choose what is best for herself without outside interference or pressure?

Any person will think others should believe as they do.

But let's be blunt-- How smart are people? Education is important. Did I make wise choices in my youth? Probably not.

I think education is key, not laws.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

It's not that she Owes it so much. But it, to me, deserves healthy consideration.
If a woman learns she's 2 weeks pregnant and after careful consideration, decides she must abort- I cannot hold that against her. I certainly don't think the law should.
If a woman carries it 7 months and decides to abort because she doesn't want to give up her nightlife party lifestyle- I'll think she's an utter piece of shit.
.

First of all a woman will not know she is two weeks pregnant, she will know after a month or two when she misses her period. Second a its very very rare for a woman to abort after seven months and in most states and nations its absolutely illegal.

Any woman who is so concerned for her 'party life' will have an abortion almost immediately as she won't look too cool on the dance floor with a big belly not to mention she wouldn't be able to fit into her hip huggers.

All women who have an abortion do so out of 'healthy consideration'. Why is it that no one speaks of the women or young girls who get pregnant, are not married, who smoke and drink or do drugs while pregnant and couldn't give a toss for the child once its born. Never do I hear anyone speaking with outrage about those kind of women who keep their babies without being ready or without caring for the life of the child. It seems that only the women or young girls who KNOW they are not up to the responsibility and have an abortion that are always under scrutiny.

I find that ironic.

As for education:

Education, Residence, and Income
Of the women obtaining abortions in 2000:

57% had some college education;
88% were from metropolitan areas; and
57% percent were low-income.

It comes across 50/50 in terms of those with or without education opting for abortion.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Why is it that no one speaks of the women or young girls who get pregnant, are not married, who smoke and drink or do drugs while pregnant and couldn't give a toss for the child once its born. Never do I hear anyone speaking with outrage about those kind of women who keep their babies without being ready or without caring for the life of the child. It seems that only the women or young girls who KNOW they are not up to the responsibility and have an abortion that are always under scrutiny.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. I know one of these women. Had a baby at 18 which had low birth weight due to her smoking, and now says she will also smoke during her future pregnancies 'to make it fair'.

But no, she's the moral one, she had her baby. Not cold like me. Not a murderer like all those heartless selfish young women who killed their 'unborn babies' at 4 or 6 weeks.

 

[Neverfly]

People DO speak out on that extensively. But that is not the Topic at hand here.

Why is it people don't speak out about drinking and driving?

Oh wait-- that isn't the topic in this thread...

Sheesh...

You're both being unrealistic and unreasonable with those two posts.

 

[visceral_instinct]

People DO speak out on that extensively. But that is not the Topic at hand here.

Why is it people don't speak out about drinking and driving?

Oh wait-- that isn't the topic in this thread...

Sheesh...

You're both being unrealistic and unreasonable with those two posts.

It's not that we feel this thread is also the place to speak up about irresponsible mothers.

It's that a lot of pro-life people preach about how women should have the baby, but don't seem to mind the kind of mothers myself and Lucy were giving out about - they preach about how children are sacred when 'children' are still inside a uterus, but don't give much attention to issues affecting them later in life. They'll give attention to an orb of jelly, but a drugged-up 15 year old who's failing in school or an older child who needs adopting, not so much.

Which is inconsistent with their focus on the importance of 'children' and how they're so important and shouldn't be flushed down the loo.

 

[Neverfly]

It's not that we feel this thread is also the place to speak up about irresponsible mothers.

It's that a lot of pro-life people preach about how women should have the baby, but don't seem to mind the kind of mothers myself and Lucy were giving out about - they preach about how children are sacred when 'children' are still inside a uterus, but don't give much attention to issues affecting them later in life. They'll give attention to an orb of jelly, but a drugged-up 15 year old who's failing in school or an older child who needs adopting, not so much.

Which is inconsistent with their focus on the importance of 'children' and how they're so important and shouldn't be flushed down the loo.

Ok, putting it this way, yes I can see your point. I've met so many bad moms that disgust me, along with the fact I've used your same argument when I pointed out what it's like being a single dad.

"Why is it that single moms are praised no matter how terrible a parent they are but dads get dogged for even the smallest mistakes?"

I dunno what's wrong with me lately. I'm sensitive and grumpy and if I was a woman, I'd be accused ignorantly of being at the wrong time of the month.

I think part of it is because it almost was as if that argument was being applied to my posts.
Things is-- I'm not pro-life. My opinions on the topic are a bit hard to follow... but I have tried to clarify them as best I could.

You might say I flirt with a Pro-Life like stance but actually hang out in a Pro-choice shade of gray.
Maybe I don't fit in a Label...

We've all given a bunch of anecdotal evidence at this point. About bad moms. About who gets an abortion; those that carefully consider and those that just casually have them...

Realistically, life bears responsibility.
In all aspects.
We will frown on bad parents. We will frown on an irresponsible boss or executive or politician. We frown upon irresponsible teachers and bus conductors.
Because these people are not only a part of the world, but they make up a large portion of it.
Lucysnow-- When I said education- I did not mean going to college- OBVIOUSLY. Why you distorted that is beyond me.
Education is the gathering of knowledge and of ideas. And educating yourself on issues, political or environmental or whatever, is a part of life and decision making.



ETA: THink about this. Given your post, where you point out irresponsible mothers and act like Pro-Lifers forget that-- Think about how you have irresponsible abortionists and how Pro-Choicers often seem oblivious to that in saying, "It's her right to choose for her Own Body."
It's almost the same exact thing!

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

It's not that we feel this thread is also the place to speak up about irresponsible mothers.

It's that a lot of pro-life people preach about how women should have the baby, but don't seem to mind the kind of mothers myself and Lucy were giving out about - they preach about how children are sacred when 'children' are still inside a uterus, but don't give much attention to issues affecting them later in life. They'll give attention to an orb of jelly, but a drugged-up 15 year old who's failing in school or an older child who needs adopting, not so much.

Which is inconsistent with their focus on the importance of 'children' and how they're so important and shouldn't be flushed down the loo.

Exactly! Thank you VI

Neverfly: Lucysnow-- When I said education- I did not mean going to college- OBVIOUSLY. Why you distorted that is beyond me.
Education is the gathering of knowledge and of ideas. And educating yourself on issues, political or environmental or whatever, is a part of life and decision making.

Wasn't trying to distort your argument simply pointing out that the averages of educated vs. non educated women who choose abortion are approximately the same. There is no way to quantify how many child bearing women (or men for that matter) are self-propelled in any of those areas and it would seem to me that the criteria you outline has little bearing on whether a woman would choose to undergo an abortion.

She for example may be quite educated or even professional in all of those areas and still find herself in a situation where she would opt for an abortion.