Abortion

Do You Believe in Abortion

  • Yes, its my body, its my right

    Votes: 23 41.1%

  • Yes, I Have Had One And It Made My Life Better

    Votes: 1 1.8%

  • Yes (other reason)

    Votes: 19 33.9%

  • No, Wheres the Babys Rights? He/She is an American Too

    Votes: 6 10.7%

  • No, It is Murder

    Votes: 10 17.9%

  • No, (Other Reason)

    Votes: 5 8.9%
  • Total voters
    56
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visceral_instinct said:
Hey, Lori. I can do a cool manoeuvre like this dude here. (Sorry I don't have one of me, I'll get a friend to take one :D)



Isn't that infinitely cooler than having the baby and messing up your body? :D
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Your kids would be bragging to their friends "look what my mom can do. My mom could kick your mom's ass."
 
Lori_7 said:
Your kids would be bragging to their friends "look what my mom can do. My mom could kick your mom's ass."
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My kids could very well be autistic zombies.

My brother has it, my mom isn't ASD but she's highly Type S (very good at math and visual-spatial stuff), and I have Asperger traits, so it clearly runs in the family.

Hence I don't want biological children, quite apart from my other wacko issues about the idea of being a baby machine.
 
I can't count on both hands how man moms I know that can do that.
Much less, several of them have THREE kids and no twins.

Viscereal Instinct makes it sound like bearing children destroys the body. Seems more likely that bad diet and lethargy would destroy it. Look at how many men get out of shape.

But then... She's nineteen and pretty much still a kid herself.
 
Neverfly said:
I can't count on both hands how man moms I know that can do that.
Much less, several of them have THREE kids and no twins.

Viscereal Instinct makes it sound like bearing children destroys the body. Seems more likely that bad diet and lethargy would destroy it. Look at how many men get out of shape.

But then... She's nineteen and pretty much still a kid herself.
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And your point is...?

You mean that being a 'kid' makes me unable to reason effectively?

Or that when others have their emotion-based biases, they're simply human, when I have mine, they're the result of being a kid and proof that I shouldn't be listened to?
 
visceral_instinct said:
And your point is...?

You mean that being a 'kid' makes me unable to reason effectively?

Or that when others have their emotion-based biases, they're simply human, when I have mine, they're the result of being a kid and proof that I shouldn't be listened to?
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No but every perspective has it's environment and influences. Most people's outlook on life changes significantly depending on what "stage" of life they are in. I know mine certainly have. It doesn't make any particular view "not worth listening to" but it does help to know what might be influencing it.

Just like with Lori. I may not agree with most of her postings but I do kind of know where they are coming from and why. Same with you. :D

Me, I'm just a grumpy ol' man permanently stuck in a teenage rebel body or vice-versa I never can seem to remember....:shrug:
 
visceral_instinct said:
And your point is...?

You mean that being a 'kid' makes me unable to reason effectively?

Or that when others have their emotion-based biases, they're simply human, when I have mine, they're the result of being a kid and proof that I shouldn't be listened to?
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You didn't address whether or not parenting is shown to be effective body destruction.


It means that being Young means that a person has plenty of time to consider entirely new perspectives.

When I was 19 I was ADAMANT that I never wanted kids. I had a family chock full of alcoholics... bad genes, whatever.
Yet, it happened anyway. When I was 25 (Still way too young) my son was born.

My commentary about your age was not insulting. It was simple. You could totally change all of your perspectives in a matter of only a few years.
Living the way you are living Now is GOOD for a 19 year old. I think I would have made a bad parent at 19.
Yet, now, I'm 31. And my son's rockin.

Now my post may have come across as insulting.

What you said days ago... "I don't care if it's the next Einstein, I'm not letting it mess up my lean wiry body "
THAT thing.
IT WAS TWISTED.

You may think whatever you want. You may have that "right." You may do whatever you want. There's also Birth Control. A little foresight on your part...
Plus, no menstruation.
But to SAY It as you had just to get a reaction out of people?

I don't deny I had an emotional bias to that. I'm a parent. My son is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. When he's around I have a pep in my step, a smile on my face. He's a Part of everything I do. He hands me tools when I work, he picks up a sledgehammer and starts hitting concrete, he can hold a chisel and he's a HAPPY kid. Always full of energy and always smiling.
I become a kid myself with him. We play with his toys like two boys. I set up his matchbox cars on a mound of dirt out back and we build bridges and buildings and made a town...
Your words ate at me. All I could think of was him cltuching at the tube. Trying to push it away. Struggling against it only to get sucked up inside it.

Do you deny that you had one as well? That it was your intention to make people react? Was that the adult thing to do?
I couldn't get that post out of my head all day. It just kept coming back to haunt me at work.

So yeah... I may come across as insulting even when I don't mean to. Simply cuz I'm still affected by that childish and overwhelmingly horrific post you had made.
 
visceral_instinct said:
And your point is...?

You mean that being a 'kid' makes me unable to reason effectively?

Or that when others have their emotion-based biases, they're simply human, when I have mine, they're the result of being a kid and proof that I shouldn't be listened to?
Click to expand...

I don't mean to speak for Neverfly, but - my own two cents:

I don't consider you as a "kid", at least not in the sense that you're not rational. On the other hand, you would have to admit that perhaps others have more experience to draw from, and would come to different conclusions than you might, even with the same set of "facts". Personally, I think you're pretty cool, even if you are an adrenalin junkie... :D

Secondly, your opinion is definitely just as valuable (if not more) than other members here - I get a great kick out of living a small part of my life through you, vicariously. And I listen. To be nineteen again...

The point I would make though, is that regardless of your personal attitude towards having children, don't let the concept scare you to death. From conception to mountain bike riding, snowboarding and free-running is only about a year. Undoubtedly that sounds like an eternity to you, but it really isn't. So, if you do fall in love and somehow miraculously change your mind about having children - go ahead and do so. I promise it won't wreck your life, completely and forever... ;)
 
Randwolf said:
I don't mean to speak for Neverfly, but - my own two cents:

I don't consider you as a "kid", at least not in the sense that you're not rational. On the other hand, you would have to admit that perhaps others have more experience to draw from, and would come to different conclusions than you might, even with the same set of "facts". Personally, I think you're pretty cool, even if you are an adrenalin junkie... :D

Secondly, your opinion is definitely just as valuable (if not more) than other members here - I get a great kick out of living a small part of my life through you, vicariously. And I listen. To be nineteen again...

The point I would make though, is that regardless of your personal attitude towards having children, don't let the concept scare you to death. From conception to mountain bike riding, snowboarding and free-running is only about a year. Undoubtedly that sounds like an eternity to you, but it really isn't. So, if you do fall in love and somehow miraculously change your mind about having children - go ahead and do so. I promise it won't wreck your life, completely and forever... ;)
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Yes, I admit to my own bias above and I'm trying hard to keep it controlled. I enjoy the vast majority of posts VI makes but that one had hit me very hard.

That aside--- There is much more to it than a zygote compared to a Hair follicle.
Stem cells are radically different from all the other cells in the body. To compare the two-- referring to cloning-- is inaccurate at best.
Aside from the fact that stem cells are very different in their function and behavior, there is the basic Illogical Argument.

Love. A love of something far greater than oneself. Self love is all fine and good when in its place. But I knew when I got the call and rushed to the hospital and held that bundled up wad of undeveloped kiddo-- I would die for him. I care far more about him, his needs and his wants than my own.
Maybe it isn't rational or logical. Maybe I cannot quantify that in one short sentence like "It's just a zygote."

But I still think it's a trait we have that allows for greatness. Something without which, we would be nothing.

And it's HAS been hard. Try being a single dad some time.
People view single dads harshly. Where they compliment and encourage single moms, they knock single dads and act like we can't handle the job.
Employers look at us like we're queer.
And I have a dangerous job, too. So talking about Dangers doesn't impress me much. How many men have jobs that get them killed? We still get our asses up and go to work.
 
Neverfly said:
You didn't address whether or not parenting is shown to be effective body destruction.


It means that being Young means that a person has plenty of time to consider entirely new perspectives.

When I was 19 I was ADAMANT that I never wanted kids. I had a family chock full of alcoholics... bad genes, whatever.
Yet, it happened anyway. When I was 25 (Still way too young) my son was born.

My commentary about your age was not insulting. It was simple. You could totally change all of your perspectives in a matter of only a few years.
Living the way you are living Now is GOOD for a 19 year old. I think I would have made a bad parent at 19.
Yet, now, I'm 31. And my son's rockin.

Now my post may have come across as insulting.

What you said days ago... "I don't care if it's the next Einstein, I'm not letting it mess up my lean wiry body "
THAT thing.
IT WAS TWISTED.

You may think whatever you want. You may have that "right." You may do whatever you want. There's also Birth Control. A little foresight on your part...
Plus, no menstruation.
But to SAY It as you had just to get a reaction out of people?

I don't deny I had an emotional bias to that. I'm a parent. My son is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. When he's around I have a pep in my step, a smile on my face. He's a Part of everything I do. He hands me tools when I work, he picks up a sledgehammer and starts hitting concrete, he can hold a chisel and he's a HAPPY kid. Always full of energy and always smiling.
I become a kid myself with him. We play with his toys like two boys. I set up his matchbox cars on a mound of dirt out back and we build bridges and buildings and made a town...
Your words ate at me. All I could think of was him cltuching at the tube. Trying to push it away. Struggling against it only to get sucked up inside it.

Do you deny that you had one as well? That it was your intention to make people react? Was that the adult thing to do?
I couldn't get that post out of my head all day. It just kept coming back to haunt me at work.

So yeah... I may come across as insulting even when I don't mean to. Simply cuz I'm still affected by that childish and overwhelmingly horrific post you had made.
Click to expand...

You didn't address whether or not parenting is shown to be effective body destruction.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't realize it was meant as a point I should have addressed.

I wouldn't use the word destroy, but it does mess up your body for a while, and amongst my whole lexicon of other reasons for not wanting biological children, I don't want to have to get my body back again.

It means that being Young means that a person has plenty of time to consider entirely new perspectives.

When I was 19 I was ADAMANT that I never wanted kids. I had a family chock full of alcoholics... bad genes, whatever.
Yet, it happened anyway. When I was 25 (Still way too young) my son was born.
Click to expand...

I do appreciate that.

Aged 36 or so, I might feel lonely rather than merely alone, and want a nuclear family.

But a woman of 26 or 36 can still change her mind, (I know someone of 43 or so who decided she wanted a child) and no one throws this view in their face. That's why I am a bit touchy about it.

What you said days ago... "I don't care if it's the next Einstein, I'm not letting it mess up my lean wiry body "
THAT thing.
IT WAS TWISTED.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you felt so heavily affected by my post. I said that out of anger because I was tired of rightwing wacknuts going on about how 'It's not her own body' etc. I was also annoyed by the idea that the hypothetical life of a zygote/blastula/embryo is more important than the real woman's own life. Don't tell me adults NEVER use hyperbole when they're annoyed? They're all cold rational machines?

I couldn't get that post out of my head all day. It just kept coming back to haunt me at work.
Click to expand...

That is exactly how I feel about the idea of having a child. About the idea that the little zygote that might develop if my birth control failed, legally, in this country, takes precedence over me.

I'm sorry I hit a nerve, though. Really. I'll shut up with the flippant dead baby and abortion comments if you want. I'm glad you have a good relationship with your son. You sound very proud when you talk about him.

So yeah... I may come across as insulting even when I don't mean to. Simply cuz I'm still affected by that childish and overwhelmingly horrific post you had made.
Click to expand...

I understand. We've all got our emotional issues.
 
Neverfly said:
And it's HAS been hard. Try being a single dad some time.
People view single dads harshly. Where they compliment and encourage single moms, they knock single dads and act like we can't handle the job.
Click to expand...
I agree - wholeheartedly. Been there, done that. My daughter is now 26, and was an adult (more or less :rolleyes:) by the time I married my current wife.

My daughter lived with me from the time she was four (maybe 5?) until she moved out on her own. Don't misunderstand me, my ex-wife and I are on great terms, we still talk at least once a month, and she was part of my daughter's life - as a "visitor", so to speak. It was my daughter's choice to live with me, as she grew older. (The 5-9 year range was kind of transitional - from staying with her mom one week out of a month to one weekend a month to... Well... Whenever.)

I have experienced some of the things you allude to as being the primary caretaker of a young child, and being male. There is definitely some reverse discrimination that goes on in these circumstances, but this is probably not the thread for it...

On the other hand - wouldn't trade it for the world... :)
 
Randwolf said:
I don't mean to speak for Neverfly, but - my own two cents:

I don't consider you as a "kid", at least not in the sense that you're not rational. On the other hand, you would have to admit that perhaps others have more experience to draw from, and would come to different conclusions than you might, even with the same set of "facts". Personally, I think you're pretty cool, even if you are an adrenalin junkie... :D

Secondly, your opinion is definitely just as valuable (if not more) than other members here - I get a great kick out of living a small part of my life through you, vicariously. And I listen. To be nineteen again...

The point I would make though, is that regardless of your personal attitude towards having children, don't let the concept scare you to death. From conception to mountain bike riding, snowboarding and free-running is only about a year. Undoubtedly that sounds like an eternity to you, but it really isn't. So, if you do fall in love and somehow miraculously change your mind about having children - go ahead and do so. I promise it won't wreck your life, completely and forever... ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks. :) I don't mean to imply that I know better than other people even if they're older. Just that my opinion shouldn't be less valid because I'm 19.

How do you mean it's only a year? I wouldn't let a 1 year old go mountain biking or free-running with me. ?

I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know, I find it hard to see it as something to look forward to, or something I might want to do one day.
 
Randwolf said:
You're very welcome... :cool:


No, I meant you, silly. You could be back doing all the things you like after about a year of giving birth (give or take a month or so, and provided you can find a baby-sitter). Silly girl! :p
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Ah, sorry. :D

I definitely won't have biological children though. Even if those issues about being a baby machine somehow go away - there's the issue of autism running in the family. After growing up with my brother and dealing with his problems, I would never risk having a child like him. Even if the chances were low.
 
Edit to add:

VI-- I appreciate your commentary. Rant follows that I typed out before I read the replies following my last.




Now that I've had all day long working out in the heat...

I'd like to point out a few things.

"Hypothetical Zygote." :
The problem with the Zygote is this... My Kidney is a biological yet 'inanimate' object. It has no consciousness. Yet, if someone sucked it out of me, I'd die.
If a kidney was lying around on a table and some guy mutilated it- That is not a crime. Although they may try to figure out where he got the kidney from...
The Kidney cannot Develop. It shows the same characteristics as a parasite, one might even say. All my organs do.
\
If a kidney is used for cloning- fine. One can still say it's an inanimate object. Even so-- We can see that a Kidney is not a parasite or just some old THING.

And a kidney is not even a zygote. A zygote is composed of stem cells. Which are very different.
These cells can be directed to become any kind of cell. They develop into something MORE. Clearly, this is no more a "thing" than a kidney is. It's much more complex than a kidney is. It's not limited as a kidney is.

Yet, it's so EASY to forget that it seems. Calling it "potential" or whatever and people get upset because of that? Why Deny That Reality? Just to favor your own argument?

I can think of many reasons why it may be necessary to abort. And why it may be necessary to hold that zygote in stark comparison to the life that already exists.

But for a figure?

No matter how you dice it, a zygote is not a rock. Not a parasite or a bedside table. It is far more than that even if it's in the process of developing and growing. As I said- I am 31. And I am still going through that process.

I don't think it takes a whole lot of humanity to respect it for what it is.

It may not be fully developed. It may be a blob of goo. Obviously it Must Start as Something...
But to respect it for what it is means to care for it enough to treat it with the respect that it deserves. I can see necessary abortions. I can see saving lives. I can see necessity but... I cannot see selfishness or self serving interest as Valid Enough to destroy it. To forget. To pretend it is Nothing.

Yes, I got a girl pregnant at 25. Yes, I was scared. Yes, I was unready.
Was abortion an option?
Absolutely Not.

I got my ass ready and stepped up to bat.
Maybe others can adopt out. But to be blunt, we are all adults and we know how babies get made. To use abortion as the easy way out seems more than just heartless to me-- It requires Denial.
 
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