Abortion

[visceral_instinct]

*runs around flinging newborn babies into the windscreen of passing cars, while laughing and thrashing her head to Impaled's "Baby Grinder"*

I'm only messing, guys. I'm just trying to piss Lori off. I've given up trying to argue, she doesn't really do reason.

 

[Kennyc]

*runs around flinging newborn babies into the windscreen of passing cars, while laughing and thrashing her head to Impaled's "Baby Grinder"*

I'm only messing, guys. I'm just trying to piss Lori off. I've given up trying to argue, she doesn't really do reason.

No need for that. Best to just drop it. Express your opinions and move one. These sorts of "discussions" rarely involve anyone changing their minds, but sometimes they do get people to think....that's usually the best we can hope for.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Yeah, you're right. I do try and evaluate my opinions and ask myself if I might be wrong. I can't agree with the pro-life view, though.

 

[Kennyc]

Yeah, you're right. I do try and evaluate my opinions and ask myself if I might be wrong. I can't agree with the pro-life view, though.

No problem with that. Me either.

 

[Neverfly]

Why does it matter to you, how the girl or woman came to need an abortion?

Need or want?
There is a difference.

This is completely wrong.

Really? Are you a God or something?

The ONLY body that counts is Lori's. A fully realized person. She harbors a parasite (that she ma love more than her own life and has a right to see it through to birth no matter what happens to her - it's her choice)

I'm completely wrong and yet, you refer to a human baby in development as a parasite.

Right...
The term parasite Is ONLY being applied to make your argument seem valid. Do you think that by using that word, you are decieving us dumb fools that don't know the difference?
Look up "Parasite" in the dictionary and see if a fetus qualifies. It DOESN'T.

that can and often does kill the host.

Stick a Citation on how often this often you speak of is.
Agreed, if a complex pregnancy can kill the mother, I am not opposed to her having to abort the pregnancy.

But don't make it sound like babies are parasites that kill hosts. You're only using a repulsive tactic to your advantage.

Think of it that way.

I prefer a more logical and realistic approach, thanks.

The fetus is not a person. Cannot feel any sensation until (my understanding) at minimum the beginning of T3, has no neocortex, and therefore no consciousness, no hopes, fears, dreams, etc. that define a person.

I understand that and so does the law. This is why abortion is illegal past 22 weeks. There is no definite line that can be drawn as to WHEN consciousness begins to slowly develop.

Lori has and always will have (whether it's legal or not - check the history and stats) ultimate veto power over this non-person growing in her womb. As it should be.

The Non person state is because it is developing. It is a potential person...

As an aside, The Great Apes and Dolphins, to name a few, have (we are coming to learn) all of the attributes required for personhood. Factor that into your assessments...

Cool, thi smeans we can't abort dolphins and apes.

i don't buy into the whole celibacy impossibility/pity-party thing. i made the decision to be celibate for 8 years of my life, during my sexual peak.

I went four yours without.
Irony is, it wasn't because of a choice to be celibate or anything.
Life was just busy. I'm a single parent, me and my son. And since he was with me from birth on-- I really had no time for dating, going out and next thing I knew... Time passed. And time was years.
It didn't kill me and I am not Hypersexed now.

Abortion IS responsible. It is IRRESPONSIBLE to have a child you cannot look after.

Adoption.

Also-- There's FREE Birth Control available...


---------------------------------------

You bunch went on for Seven Pages in one day? Sheesh...

You know, when my son was concieved- I was Not Ready and I did NOT want kids.

And honestly, I asked his mom if she planned to abort.

Today, I look at my baby boy and WOW!! Am I GLAD she did NOT even remotely consider that.

He's my shadow and we're a team. Where I go, he goes. I miss him five minutes after I drop him off at school and when he get's home, he always runs up to Dad.
He's older now and I STILL Cannot get over what a great thing he is and the remarkable impact he's had on my life.

 

[pjdude1219]

The term parasite Is ONLY being applied to make your argument seem valid. Do you think that by using that word, you are decieving us dumb fools that don't know the difference?
Look up "Parasite" in the dictionary and see if a fetus qualifies. It DOESN'T.

actually it does.

 

[sandy]

But your use of the word "baby" to describe a T1 to T2 zygote / fetus is inflammatory and implies that other pro-choice people are somehow morally beneath you. Stop doing it.

Tough. I don't imply squat. Deal with it. No.

...telling yourself you're special, you're unique, won't make it true. I'm average in most skills. I'm not a gift to the world, I'm not fucking Einstein. If I go out in the world someday and invent a drug that cures cancer or some shit, I'll gladly take my words back, but the point is...I'm not any more valuable than you or Orleander or any other ten-a-penny female with watery blue eyes. There are 6 billion of us. No one is all that special.
What's wrong with being average, and not special? Which is what most humans are, unless they're some sort of super smart mutant with the skills to cure all disease and make the world fair??
I don't feel that I have no power and control. I feel that I am a regular, common or garden human being making a life for herself just like anyone else. Thank you for saying these things, like 'you will make a unique impact', but they're bullshit.

You are what you think you are. You are what you obsess about. Does your sig mean you support killing terrorists, too? Or just babies?

 

[Neverfly]

According to everything I've googled, a parasite must be a different species than its host.

The vast majority of parasites complete an entire life cycle in the host. Not 1/90th of it.

Eggs would have to be classified as ectoparasites by your definition.

 

[superluminal]

According to everything I've googled, a parasite must be a different species than its host.

The vast majority of parasites complete an entire life cycle in the host. Not 1/90th of it.

Eggs would have to be classified as ectoparasites by your definition.

I was incorrect in my labeling of the fetus as a parasite. What I should have said, and is supported by every definition of parasite avalable, is that the fetus exhibits parasitic behavior. And except for the "different species" criteria, there is a continuum of parasitic forms, within which the fetus falls very nicely.

As for the dangers:

http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/articles/news/pregdeaths.php

Here's a highlight:

"Childbirth often was a life-threatening event just a century ago," said Dr. Lynne Wilcox, director of CDC's reproductive health program. The average lifespan for an American woman at the turn of the 20th century was only 48 years.

Which, to me, implies that without modern medical intervention, (which I already knew) pregnancy has been a very dicey thing throughout human history.

 

[superluminal]

Really? Are you a God or something?

Nah. Just overly confident sometimes.

I'm completely wrong and yet, you refer to a human baby in development as a parasite.

Yeah? What's yer point?

Right...
The term parasite Is ONLY being applied to make your argument seem valid. Do you think that by using that word, you are decieving us dumb fools that don't know the difference?
Look up "Parasite" in the dictionary and see if a fetus qualifies. It DOESN'T.

As I posted, I was wrong in labeling it as a parasite instead of characterizing its behavior. And by using that word, I'm only trying to illuminate the real interactive functional characteristics of what a fetus really does. It's not inflammatory, it's factual.

Stick a Citation on how often this often you speak of is.

Done in prev post.

Agreed, if a complex pregnancy can kill the mother, I am not opposed to her having to abort the pregnancy.

Cool.

But don't make it sound like babies are parasites that kill hosts. You're only using a repulsive tactic to your advantage.

They exhibit that behavior more closely than any other biological relationship I know of.

I prefer a more logical and realistic approach, thanks.

Me too.

I understand that and so does the law. This is why abortion is illegal past 22 weeks.

Not entirely, (or even mostly) correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

There is no definite line that can be drawn as to WHEN consciousness begins to slowly develop.

Well, most sources feel that the neocortex is the seat of what we think of as self-aware 'consciousness'. There is every possibility that 'consciousness' as we think of it isn't present in the undeveloped neocortex of even young babies.

The Non person state is because it is developing. It is a potential person...

Right. So?

Cool, thi smeans we can't abort dolphins and apes.

Not abort. But maybe we need to reconsider our ethical position on blithely killing these beings?

Today, I look at my baby boy and WOW!! Am I GLAD she did NOT even remotely consider that.

He's my shadow and we're a team. Where I go, he goes. I miss him five minutes after I drop him off at school and when he get's home, he always runs up to Dad.
He's older now and I STILL Cannot get over what a great thing he is and the remarkable impact he's had on my life.

That's nice. I feel exactly the same about my children and grandchildren.

What the fuck does that have to do with an abortion debate? Seriously? The whole 'potential' person argument makes me think you believe that the whole person is somehow embodied in the zygote during meiosis. A hair follicle, if cloned properly, is a far more complete potential human.

 

[Neverfly]

Nah. Just overly confident sometimes.

You and me both
But you can correct errors and I respect that. ^

They exhibit that behavior more closely than any other biological relationship I know of.

Only during the time of pregnancy.

And children all the way up til puberty exhibit other strange behaviors that we can classify as "non-person", "animalsitic" and so on.

Not entirely, (or even mostly) correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Correct me if I'm misreading but-- that article lists only to the lastest percentile as at 21 weeks.

And it lists the possibility of later abortions as "Allowable" in only very extreme cases.

I linked Roe vs. Wade in which the Law Was Set at 24 wks.
It was later moved to an Earlier date of 22 weeks in "Somebody" vs Planned Parenthood.

Not abort. But maybe we need to reconsider our ethical position on blithely killing these beings?

Something that myself and many others already consider.

That's nice. I feel exactly the same about my children and grandchildren.

What the fuck does that have to do with an abortion debate? Seriously?

It relates fallaciously. But I couldn't help myself...

The whole 'potential' person argument makes me think you believe that the whole person is somehow embodied in the zygote during meiosis. A hair follicle, if cloned properly, is a far more complete potential human.

This is a good point and it's why I don't disagree with early necessary abortion.

I Also agree with one of Lori's points: It does seem like a lot of young girls get too reckless and then just say, "Well, I can always just get an abortion..."

There's adoption and birth control and not to mention STD's which make protection a very desirable option anyway.

I agree that a zygote has potential, just as a human cell for cloning has potential-- However, a zygote has always had strong potential and Human Cloning is not yet available. We are not clonging people nor are we regularly cloning people nor have we ever been-- aside from reproduction which is not cloning.
You can get a sheep, though...
Anyway the point is-- We are careless.
Yeah, maybe a zygote IS just a zygote. But a glob or goo or other matter will NOT become more- a zygote will.
When all the facts are lined out and everyone has had their say... Does it really feel good KNOWING?
It doesn't set right with me.

I could do the "It's just this or just that" arguments to justify a LOT of things that at the end of the day would not set right with me. It still won't set right.

I know that is a personal argument and a fallacy. But that aside, I also know tha a lot of people will also think the same way. That it just doesn't set right, somehow.

 

[Neverfly]

This issue is far more complex still:

Imagine a father who at 20 weeks is told by the mother that she's decided SHE doesn't want the child and she is going to abort soon.

Does he have any say? HE'S THE FRIKKIN FATHER!!

Yet, most of you would say that's HER body. It isn't. It's his sudmission and his CHILD.
And -- it's very far along in that given scenerio.

You can imagine the debate that topic would spur-- You can see how complex an issue it is.

People simply are not going to agree on all these complex issues.

 

[pjdude1219]

This issue is far more complex still:

Imagine a father who at 20 weeks is told by the mother that she's decided SHE doesn't want the child and she is going to abort soon.

Does he have any say? HE'S THE FRIKKIN FATHER!!

Yet, most of you would say that's HER body. It isn't. It's his sudmission and his CHILD.
And -- it's very far along in that given scenerio.

You can imagine the debate that topic would spur-- You can see how complex an issue it is.

People simply are not going to agree on all these complex issues.

her body isn't her body?

 

[Neverfly]

her body isn't her body?

Her baby's body is not her body. It's her babys body. Of course.

There were several people that even called it a "Parasite." Suddenly a Parasite is her body, too just to make the claim of "it's her right to do with her body what she wants" valid?

The baby is magically HER Body when they think that will hold.
When it doesn't hold, then they call it a parasite.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Bells]

This issue is far more complex still:

Imagine a father who at 20 weeks is told by the mother that she's decided SHE doesn't want the child and she is going to abort soon.

Does he have any say? HE'S THE FRIKKIN FATHER!!

Yet, most of you would say that's HER body. It isn't. It's his sudmission and his CHILD.
And -- it's very far along in that given scenerio.

You can imagine the debate that topic would spur-- You can see how complex an issue it is.

People simply are not going to agree on all these complex issues.

Let me ask you a question..

Imagine one day your significant other tells you that she is pregnant and that she wants to get rid of it. You are the father (I am assuming you are male.. if you are not.. just go with me here) and you want the child.

Now lets imagine that in this particular scenario, the father has the right to a say and can deny the mother the choice of an abortion if he so chooses.

Could you, as the father, force her to carry on with the pregnancy and force her to have the child against her wishes? Should you, as the father, have the rights over her body to force her to continue with an unwanted pregnancy.

What if her health was at stake?

What if, at 20 weeks, she tells him she's getting an abortion because it is endangering her health. He's still the "frikkin father", should he have the right to deny her the rights over her own body as to whether she carries to term or not?

Who should have the final say over the woman's choice to carry the child to term? The father who can, if he chooses to, walk away entirely once the child is born and have nothing to do with it? Or the mother who will have to put herself through the pregnancy against her will, which can endanger her life at any time of the pregnancy?

It is ultimately her body. We can go on and on forever about the body of the child and the rights of the father over the body of the child. But ultimately, it is the mother's body that will be put through the stress of the pregnancy and the ultimate stress of the birth and the afterbirth, even if there are no complications. And I can assure you, the stress is extraordinary. You stop sleeping by about 7 months, are in constant pain and stressed for the duration. And that's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you can end up with a wide variety of complications during and after the pregnancy, which can result in the mother's death.

So yes, it is ultimately her body and ultimately her choice.

Her baby's body is not her body. It's her babys body. Of course.

There were several people that even called it a "Parasite." Suddenly a Parasite is her body, too just to make the claim of "it's her right to do with her body what she wants" valid?

The baby is magically HER Body when they think that will hold.
When it doesn't hold, then they call it a parasite.

This is not rocket science.

It is very much a parasite. And one that can ultimately kill her if things go pear shape.

A pregnancy will strip her body of all its essential nutrients. She will take a tonne of vitamins and eat all the right foods, but she will still come out of it the worse for wear. That baby will own her body for the duration that it remains in her body. It is the baby that dictates what she does with her body, from what she eats and drinks to what kind of medication she may have to take to what kind of beauty products she uses and cleaners she uses around her house.

 

[Kennyc]

...
This is not rocket science.

You are right it's not rocket science, it's biology and it's HER body. She decides. Only her. Certainly because it is something she likely must decide in consultation with the possible father and others, but the decision is her's. Men by nature do not have that choice nor the right to force their will on others.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
"do you beleive aborton shud be legal.???"

i don't think that our government should have a say in it at all really.

i want freedom, and i want people, including myself, to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions and decisions.

oK... im pro-chose also... but do you feel that you have been responsible for the consequences of you'r own actions of choosin an abortion several years ago???

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

This issue is far more complex still:

Imagine a father who at 20 weeks is told by the mother that she's decided SHE doesn't want the child and she is going to abort soon.

Does he have any say? HE'S THE FRIKKIN FATHER!!

Yet, most of you would say that's HER body. It isn't. It's his sudmission and his CHILD.
And -- it's very far along in that given scenerio.

You can imagine the debate that topic would spur-- You can see how complex an issue it is.

People simply are not going to agree on all these complex issues.

Actually no its not his child, she carries it for the nine months, she supplies it with nutrients from her own body, she nurses it and she is also responsible for it. As long as its in her body its her decision whether she wants to reach full term or not.

 

[visceral_instinct]

^Yay...there are at least some sane people in here..

I don't know how anyone can complain about how the father should get a say. He can voice an opinion, certainly, but he shouldn't have any power over whether or not the woman gets an abortion.

He doesn't have to carry the thing inside him for nine months. He doesn't have to deal with the sickness, the distension, and all the other issues that go with pregnancy. He doesn't have to give birth. He doesn't have to recover physically afterwards.

 

[Tiassa]

And the flip side

He doesn't have to carry the thing inside him for nine months. He doesn't have to deal with the sickness, the distension, and all the other issues that go with pregnancy. He doesn't have to give birth. He doesn't have to recover physically afterwards.

But he is the one who will cheat on his wife because she is depressed, sagging, overweight, and wrought with stretch marks after having a baby.