ABC News primetime special on UFOs

[SkinWalker]

We'll definately never be sure of what exactly happened at Roswell in June of 1947, but in the end, the evidence is long and far from a crashed alien spacecraft. The balloon wreckage is long since disposed of and the key players are mostly dead... but if a spaceship crashed, there would be artifacts. Physical evidence.

I too spent considerable time in the military, and one thing that I know for certain is that secrets don't stay that way. Not for 60 years. The government has never demonstrated that it could maintain that sort of secrecy. The Soviets got ahold of Manhattan Project info; Iran-Contra leaked; Watergate leaked; Abu Graib leaked...

There's no conspiracy to conceal alien spacecraft. Its a myth and not even possible, based on the U.S. government's own track record.

 

[MacM]

When you say "11 O Clock," do you mean with regards to time or position on the horizon? Could it have been high-flying aircraft that were high enough to reflect sunlight from the horizon? I would think that 11pm would be too late for even this effect, but if it were earlier in the evening or perhaps in a summer month? I have seen this sort of thing before myself, assuming it to be aircraft/sunlight combination, but naturally was unable to verify without high-powered binoculars or telescope.

Position overhead. I don't recall the precise hour but it was late evening, hours after sun set.

A UFO to be sure, but alien spaceship, probably not.

I concur. I basically remember that experience and understand how easy it is to believe since there seems to be no other ready explanation.

 

[VRob]

We'll definately never be sure of what exactly happened at Roswell in June of 1947, but in the end, the evidence is long and far from a crashed alien spacecraft.

More ignorance.

The evidence is overwelming.

I too spent considerable time in the military, and one thing that I know for certain is that secrets don't stay that way. Not for 60 years. The government has never demonstrated that it could maintain that sort of secrecy. The Soviets got ahold of Manhattan Project info; Iran-Contra leaked; Watergate leaked; Abu Graib leaked...

And how exactly would you know if EVERY event that they attempted to cover up was leaked and exposed??? If it remained secret, YOU WOULDN'T HEAR ABOUT IT!!! Do you really think the Govmt/Military hasn't been able to keep any secrets?? :bugeye:

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you to ponder. If you come home from work early, and find your wife in bed with the neighbor, do you really think you caught them on their first encounter??

I also find it incredibly ironic that you accept the 'Roswell: Case closed' explanation credible over the hundreds of eyewitness, and collaborating evidence against it. That's right, you don't know about this other evidence as you've never really gotten past the headlines of this subject.

An entity that has been caught umpteen times lieing, and lieing again to cover up their initial lie on anything and everything that goes on in this country. Yet for some reason you swallow their each and every word as it is the gospel truth.

There's no conspiracy to conceal alien spacecraft. Its a myth and not even possible, based on the U.S. government's own track record.

I've concluded that you made up your mind on this issue long before the subject even entered your thought process. You continue to ridicule, and label anyone who still questions the official response as 'nutters', 'crusaders', ect... Can't you see how your arrogance and ignorance is just gushing through the keyboards when your write this crap?

This has NOTHING to do with any beliefs, or hopes, or delusions. It's about sifting through the available evidence and coming to a likely conclusion based on the available evidence, and the actions of the characters within the subject over the past 60 years. But, you wouldn't know this because you haven't even begun to look at the available evidence.

 

[SkinWalker]

How about you show us the evidence? What evidence exists that isn't anecdotes from believers?

 

[btimsah]

We'll definately never be sure of what exactly happened at Roswell in June of 1947, but in the end, the evidence is long and far from a crashed alien spacecraft. The balloon wreckage is long since disposed of and the key players are mostly dead... but if a spaceship crashed, there would be artifacts. Physical evidence.

I too spent considerable time in the military, and one thing that I know for certain is that secrets don't stay that way. Not for 60 years. The government has never demonstrated that it could maintain that sort of secrecy. The Soviets got ahold of Manhattan Project info; Iran-Contra leaked; Watergate leaked; Abu Graib leaked...

There's no conspiracy to conceal alien spacecraft. Its a myth and not even possible, based on the U.S. government's own track record.

Skinwalker, you're second paragraph, disproved the third one. The reason it's a myth is because they HAVE DONE a bad job of keeping it a secret.

There are tons of witnesses (disclosure project or not) who have the experience and position to know who speak of a higher than top-secret classification of evidence of ETI. You seem to think they could not keep something like that secret, I agree. That's why they have not kept it secret and we can find out about it. Weather one believes the testimony or claim is up to them though.

 

[btimsah]

My opinion on Roswell is this.

The multitude of different responses by the Military suggest a cover-up of some kind was going on.

Then the question becomes; What is being covered up?

A. Top secret program of our own?

B. A saucer shaped craft with bodies from an unknown world crashed.

Now, for me the sheer level of intimidation and flip-flops make A unlikely for the Mogul project. At that time I would find it more likely for the Military to threaten civilians over B, not A. However, B is much further out there than A..

The reason I lean toward the Alien craft explanation is because it would have been a much bigger threat, and makes sense of the bodies seen. Anything else will always be missing something because it is not the truth.

 

[SkinWalker]

Skinwalker, you're second paragraph, disproved the third one. The reason it's a myth is because they HAVE DONE a bad job of keeping it a secret.

Not hardly. Myths are embellishments of actual events. The myth of North Western Indians that speaks of an angry god of the underworld that throws fireballs at the inhabitants of the villages, and abates himself when appeased by the personal sacrifices of two shamen who climbed the god's mountain and threw themselves into the underworld is a myth that greatly embellishes an event that occurred thousands of years ago. The event was the volcanic process that created Crater Lake. There was no god of the underworld that was angry at some perceived transgression. It was just a natural geologic occurrance that would have taken place regardless of whether humans lived there or not.

Nearly every myth of humanity that has endured generations has some basis in fact, though we have no way of determing what that basis is in most cases. But in the cases where we do have some supporting artifactual or geologic evidence that points to the actual event, the resulting myth is a completely embellished version.

The myth of Roswell isn't as significant as the Crater Lake volcano, the deluge of the Black Sea, or the tidal wave in Okinawa, so it probably won't endure more than another couple of generations. But the factual basis is easy to discern: a military operation for a Cold War government in a time of extreme paranoia. The Soviets had just obtained nuclear secrets (if my memory serves correct) and American intelligence was on high alert, so the secrecy involved was significant for any military operation, no matter how mundane.

In addition, the American public was feeling the government paranoia and the Kenneth Arnold fiasco had just made front page news. Its no wonder that the papers picked up on the Roswell story and went with it.

But if there were anything as significant as aliens and alien bodies being kept in some government facility, there would have been credible leaks of the information backed with physical evidence. That's the way it unfolded with each of the so-called government conspiracies that I noted above.

So my paragraphs don't contradict each other at all. Nice try, though.

 

[btimsah]

Not hardly. Myths are embellishments of actual events. The myth of North Western Indians that speaks of an angry god of the underworld that throws fireballs at the inhabitants of the villages, and abates himself when appeased by the personal sacrifices of two shamen who climbed the god's mountain and threw themselves into the underworld is a myth that greatly embellishes an event that occurred thousands of years ago. The event was the volcanic process that created Crater Lake. There was no god of the underworld that was angry at some perceived transgression. It was just a natural geologic occurrance that would have taken place regardless of whether humans lived there or not.

You contradicted yourself when you stated that Military secrets are always revealed and "not hidden well". The problem is the large amount of testimony which suggests IT'S NOT COVERED UP WELL. This bizzare North Western Indian story has nothing to do with that. Nice try though.

Nearly every myth of humanity that has endured generations has some basis in fact, though we have no way of determing what that basis is in most cases. But in the cases where we do have some supporting artifactual or geologic evidence that points to the actual event, the resulting myth is a completely embellished version.

The Roswell Case is not a myth. It's an event that occured over a few days that the Military has offered 3 different explanations for. It's as much a myth for the government, as it is for those you like to call nuts. At least those who still claim it was an alien vehicle that crash, their story has remained the same.

The myth of Roswell isn't as significant as the Crater Lake volcano, the deluge of the Black Sea, or the tidal wave in Okinawa, so it probably won't endure more than another couple of generations. But the factual basis is easy to discern: a military operation for a Cold War government in a time of extreme paranoia. The Soviets had just obtained nuclear secrets (if my memory serves correct) and American intelligence was on high alert, so the secrecy involved was significant for any military operation, no matter how mundane.

Likewise, the Military COULD NOT reveal that they had found an alien spacecraft due to the extreme paranoia and fear in the country at that time. Weather the soviets had just obtained nuclear secrets has nothing to do with it. It's OUR weather balloon remember? Therefore the level of threats and secrecy are not justified for project Mogul. Let alone the 3 different explanations, and the incompetence of the witnesses who said this thing was a flying saucer from another world. In you're world SkinWalker those who see anything that corraborates the ALIEN claim are crazy or mistaken and you discount them. Yet, for some reason you are not interested in how you're beloved Government could be lying to protect a greater secret in ETI. You immediately believe EVERY claim and witness which contradicts EVERYONE ELSE in a desperate effort to support a more mundane explanation.

In addition, the American public was feeling the government paranoia and the Kenneth Arnold fiasco had just made front page news. Its no wonder that the papers picked up on the Roswell story and went with it.

They went with the Roswell story because the military said they had just found a flying disc. It has nothing to do with the crap you wrote above. They would have been failing in their duties to NOT REPORT it, just so you don't have to mess with it.

But if there were anything as significant as aliens and alien bodies being kept in some government facility, there would have been credible leaks of the information backed with physical evidence. That's the way it unfolded with each of the so-called government conspiracies that I noted above.

There were witnesses who saw the bodies being autopsied, after they were recovered. They were small and not like us at all. Of course, in you're desperate attempt at debunkery you use the phrase government facility, because you know of these witnesses. I know, I know you believe the witnesses were "wrong".

So my paragraphs don't contradict each other at all. Nice try, though.

Yes they do. You were claiming that the military cannot keep secrets, that the information would slip out. You apperently think, this information has not slipped out. Read this:

Brigadier General Steven Lovekin, Esq.: Army National Guard Reserve, October 2000
Brigadier General Lovekin entered the military in 1958. In 1959 he joined the White House Army Signaling Agency and served under President Eisenhower and then under President Kennedy with an above top secret clearance. He was familiar with Project Blue Book and related how that project documented highly scientific and specific UFO cases from very reliable sources. They reviewed photos taken from Air Force pilots, Marine Air Corps pilots, and some foreign pilots and multiple reports of radar lock-ons. He was also shown a piece of metallic debris taken from the Roswell crash. While working under President Eisenhower, he discovered that Eisenhower had a keen interest in UFOs, but that Eisenhower came to realize that he had lost control of the subject.

What they were trying to say was, "Look, we have this physical evidence to go along with what you have seen in Bluebook; we have now been able to get our hands on and show you this material" and that is what he did. He went on to further explain that this was the material that had come from a New Mexico crash in 1947 of an extraterrestrial craft and that was discussed at length… He did not describe what the bodies looked like, although they did discuss the fact that there were bodies, extraterrestrial bodies.

If you wanted to ruin your career, it was explained to us, the thing that would do this the fastest was to talk about UFOs.

We saw a lot of pictures of UFOs. Some pictures that I saw I think were maybe a little bit better than the ones you see today. These pictures of UFOs were taken by Air Force pilots.

I would estimate that there probably were between two and three hundred cases of radar lock on. That is why those cases were in there — because they were authentic.

But what happened was that Eisenhower got sold out. Without him knowing it, he lost control of what was going on with the entire UFO situation. In his last address to the nation, I think he was telling us that the Military Industrial Complex would stick you in the back if you were not totally vigilant. And, I think that he felt like he had not been vigilant. I think he felt like he trusted too many people. And, Eisenhower was a trusting man. He was a good man. And I think that he realized that all of a sudden this matter is going into the control of corporations that could very well act to the detriment of this country.

This frustration, from what I can remember, went on for months. He realized that he was losing control of the UFO subject. He realized that the phenomenon or whatever it was that we were faced with was not going to be in the best hands. As far as I can remember, that was the expression that was used, "It is not going to be in the best hands." That was a real concern. And so it has turned out to be.

It had been discussed with me on numerous occasions what could happen to me militarily if I discussed this. I would say that the government has done as good a job enforcing secrecy through the installation of abject fear as they have done with anything within the memory of modern man. I really believe they have done a job.

One older officer discussed with me what possibly could happen if there was a revelation. He was talking about being erased and I said, "Man, what do you mean erased?" And, he said, "Yes, you will be erased — disappear." And I said, "How do you know all this?" And he said, "I know. Those threats have been made and carried out. Those threats started way back in 1947. The Army Air Force was given absolute control over how to handle this. This being the biggest security situation that this country has ever dealt with and there have been some erasures."

I don’t care what kind of a person you are. I don’t care how strong or courageous you are. It would be a very fearful situation because from what Matt [this older officer] said, "They will go after not only you. They will go after your family." Those were his words. And, so I can only say that the reason that they have managed to keep it under wraps for so long is through fear. They are very selective about how they pull someone out to make an example of. And I know that that has been done.

As I see it, when you propagate a lie and propagate a fear of the truth, you put yourself in a very vulnerable position.

And you can’t create anything positive through fear. Fear only degenerates the human soul and the human psyche, the human mind if you will.

I think secrecy has been enforced because what would be revealed would totally destroy an economy that was designed by certain capitalists in this country a long, long time ago to maintain them and their corporations from here to eternity. I think oil has a special interest in seeing that it maintains its position where it is, regardless of what kind of pollution or disastrous side effects may have occurred and continue to occur.

I think that what we are dealing with is certain electromagnetic devices that are powered by sources that we just don’t quite understand as of yet – well, we are certainly not advertising them anyway. But, these devices would generate free power. And free power would be something that corporations panic about. I think this government panics about it.

But, at some point in time we are going to have to share this information that would allow us to have free energy. The government knows about this. It is foolish for them to try to make the rest of us look like imbeciles and say that this can’t happen. Well, it can happen.

The question was, "Did I hear that we had ever picked up signals which could not be identified or, if they could be identified, were they coming in from strange craft that, perhaps, had put us under surveillance?" Yes, I did hear that. I heard that from at least five or six reports that wound up in Bluebook. In fact, several of the reports had come in through pilots’ radios.​

 

[SkinWalker]

You contradicted yourself when you stated that Military secrets are always revealed and "not hidden well".

Except that's not what I said. That's not even a good paraphrase. What I'm saying is that significant government conspiracies have not been kept in the past. I cited several examples. I then stated that if there were indeed a coverup that regarded Extraterrestrials from a crashed space ship at Roswell, NM, then it would have long revealed itself in a fashion that would have left no doubt.

This bizzare North Western Indian story has nothing to do with that.

Then you missed the point. A point, I might add, that wasn't all that intellectually challenging, nor was it bizzare. Indeed, it was far less bizzare than the belief that alien spacecraft(s) have crashed in New Mexico and magically left no evidence. I hope it was simply a case of you refusing to actually digest the paragraph and not that you were unable to understand the significance of mythology and embellishment.

The Roswell Case is not a myth.

It has all the markings of a myth: an actual event that was very mundane compared to the end story; snowballing embelleshments -more added to the story each year; anecdotal transmission; no physical evidence to support the embellishments; evidence to support the mundane explanation; devoted believers that accept the embellished version on faith all the while rejecting the prosaic and more probable version; etc.

Likewise, the Military COULD NOT reveal that they had found an alien spacecraft due to the extreme paranoia and fear in the country at that time.

That is certainly a possibility and it makes sense. However, the military and the US Government has not demonstrated that it is capable of sustaining a secret of that sort of significance for that length of time. Can you produce such a case? The most significant secret of the day was the Manhattan Project. You can get just about any information on the project you want today. Entire books have been written by participants and the data has been acknowledged by the government.

However, when you consider those that have "come forward" with regard to the alleged "Roswell/Alien Spaceship" conspiracy, you only get third party authors or those that claim to be minor players in the scheme of things. Even your rather long copy and paste (against forum rules, by the way) of the General's "testimony" to the so-called Disclosure Project is unconvincing. The fact that he was a general doesn't imply that he is any more or less fallible than a janitor or parking lot attendent. It is still a spurious anecdote without corroborating physical evidence and can be discarded until such time as corroborating physical evidence can be produced.

This, my friend, is the thing that separates the believer from the skeptic. I'm not willing to accept what others claim they have seen simply because they say they saw it. Believers are quick to imply that the "shear volume/quantity of witness testimony" is enough, but I maintain that the more quantity you have, the more physical evidence must be present. And yet witness count keeps going up, but no implants have been shown to exist; no rear fender has been recovered from the space ship; no owner's manual nicked by abductees; no photographs that aren't at extreme distance and/or blurred to extremes; no bodies produced; no epithelials recovered; no artifacts of alien manufacture at all.

But of course, they exist... the government just keeps them hidden. It's a convenient excuse. I even read a post from a believer a while back that criticized the US Government for being incompetent to the extreme, while maintaining that they are able to sustain a secret.

You immediately believe EVERY claim and witness which contradicts EVERYONE ELSE in a desperate effort to support a more mundane explanation.

Why would I be desperate? for one; and for two, I only contradict those claims that are without merit. The claim that the US Government has in its possession a crashed alien spacecraft and the bodies of extraterrestrial aliens is not substantiated by the claimants and readily explained by the government in this post-Cold War society.

A high quantity of anecdotal claims with a zero quantity of physical evidence is suspect, but it is readily present in all human mythology.

They went with the Roswell story because the military said they had just found a flying disc. It has nothing to do with the crap you wrote above.

It has everything to do with what I wrote above. Correct me if I'm wrong. The debris was discovered by rancher Mack Brazel on 6/14/47. On 6/24/47, Kenneth Arnold has his "sighting" over Oregon/Washington and the press coins the term "flying saucer" based on his description. 7/4/47 marks the relative peak of the saucer hysteria in the United States. 7/5/47 is the day that Brazel hears of the saucer story. On 7/7/47 he tells the Roswell sheriff what he found on his ranch. Not knowing that Professor Charles Moore's Mogul Flight #4 was launched on 6/4/47 and subsequently lost, Brazel, and later Marcel, make the assumption that since there are all these 'flying saucers' about, one of them crashed. Near a military proving ground!

The whole myth of Roswell's UFO crash is so insignificant once the 'flying saucer craze' is relatively over, that nothing is ever discussed in the popular media until after Spielburg's movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind re-popularizes the idea in 1977, the same year that Star Wars debuted, instilling the desire for outer-space adventure just about anyone who went to the theater. Stanton Friedman started talking about Roswell in 1978 and the embellishments snowballed from there.

Most believers today are victims of popular media: Close Encounters, the X-Files, Unsolved Mysteries, several books that claim to have interviewed participants, etc., etc.

It's mythology. If you can't accept that, it's because you have an emic view of the UFO/Alien culture. I did, too, once. But then I obtained an education, and not just a college one.

Guys like you accuse guys like me of being close-minded, but it's the opposite. You've read countless books on the subject of UFOs I'm sure. So have I. I've read books with titles like Alien Agenda, Open Skies, Closed Minds, and Above Top Secret and of authors like Randle, Mars, Streiber, Good, and Mack.

But I've also read titles by authors like Carl Sagan, Michael Shermer, Philip Klass, Park, John Casti, and Joe Nickel to name a few. Some of these books dealt with UFOs directly, some with critical thinking and logic, some with science and science history.

I wonder how many UFO/ETI believers bother to read these authors? Some do, I'm sure.

 

[Jagger]

Folks, how many stars are observable within the universe? Forget the ones unobservable.

How many planets orbit those stars?

How many are capable of any form of life?

We are one form of life, of many, on one planet orbiting one star. The question isn't whether life exists beyond earth but are they capable of traveling to this earth.

They would have to be technologically advanced. Even with advanced technology and considering the distances involved, they must have either extremely long life spans or short cuts to travel amonst the stars.

They are out there. The question is whether they have visited this earth.

I suspect they have-just based on numbers and probabilities.

Gold stars for anyone that can come up with some of the numbers. The numbers are mindboggling.

 

[MacM]

Folks, how many stars are observable within the universe? Forget the ones unobservable.

How many planets orbit those stars?

How many are capable of any form of life?

We are one form of life of many on one planet orbiting one star. The question isn't whether life exists beyond earth but are they capable of traveling to this earth.

They would have to be technologically advanced. Even if they have advanced technology and considering the distances involved, they must have either extremely long life spans or short cuts to travel amonst the stars.

They are out there. The question is whether they have visited this earth.

I suspect they have just based on numbers and probabilities.

Gold stars for anyone that can come up with some of the numbers. The numbers are mindboggling.

This echos my views very closely with the qualification that most (if not all) such reported viewings are not such alien operated crafts.

 

[Jagger]

One other point. How old is the human race? Off the top of my head, around 9000 years. We are traveling the solar system in 9000 years of evolution.

How old is the universe? 11.2 to 20 billion years old approximately??? So if a species survived slightly more than 9000 years, say 50,000 years, what sort of travel would they be capable of???

Gold stars and a pulitzer to anyone who can give an accurate answer.

 

[SkinWalker]

Jagger, you should visit the Drake Equation thread...

 

[Jagger]

Good thread. It is back to the probabilities. And how can light year travel occur.

 

[MacM]

One other point. How old is the human race? Off the top of my head, around 9000 years. We are traveling the solar system in 9000 years of evolution.

How old is the universe? 11.2 to 20 billion years old approximately??? So if a species survived slightly more than 9000 years, say 50,000 years, what sort of travel would they be capable of???

Gold stars and a pulitzer to anyone who can give an accurate answer.

I question your basis for setting the human race at 9,000 years. Perhaps you meant some point of intellect of the human race. As far as I know our species have been around since before the neanderthals.

 

[VRob]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The debris was discovered by rancher Mack Brazel on 6/14/47. On 6/24/47, Kenneth Arnold has his "sighting" over Oregon/Washington and the press coins the term "flying saucer" based on his description. 7/4/47 marks the relative peak of the saucer hysteria in the United States. 7/5/47 is the day that Brazel hears of the saucer story. On 7/7/47 he tells the Roswell sheriff what he found on his ranch. Not knowing that Professor Charles Moore's Mogul Flight #4 was launched on 6/4/47 and subsequently lost, Brazel, and later Marcel, make the assumption that since there are all these 'flying saucers' about, one of them crashed. Near a military proving ground!

You're wrong.

BTW: 1947 was hardly the peek of UFO events. Just another example of your ignorance.

The whole myth of Roswell's UFO crash is so insignificant once the 'flying saucer craze' is relatively over, that nothing is ever discussed in the popular media until after Spielburg's movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind re-popularizes the idea in 1977, the same year that Star Wars debuted, instilling the desire for outer-space adventure just about anyone who went to the theater. Stanton Friedman started talking about Roswell in 1978 and the embellishments snowballed from there.

So, what you're saying is that unless the popular media reports it, it couldn't possibly have happened?

You leave me shaking my head Skinwalker. You accept the testimony of a Govmt that has proven to be dishonest a multitude of times. You accept the testimony of anyone, and everyone who dismisses this topic as nothing more than smirks and giggles. Yet, Extremely credible firsthand eyewitness(Pilots, Military Officers, Military Generals, Intelligence officers, Presidents, Police officers, ect...) get labeled as nut cases, or suffering from some type of Mass delusion.

There are intelligent people, and then there are Educated people. Many times these 2 go hand in hand. Unfortunately for you, they do not. I find you to be educated, but.......

 

[VRob]

Btismah,

Well said.

IMO, the #1 reason(there were/are many) the Govmt wanted to keep this issue a secret was Technology.

 

[Stryder]

As stated previously in another thread on the same subject thats bound to degrade down the same path, During the Second world war there were Japanese Balloon bombs launched that hit the US, it's then suggestible that internal "Sleepers" were also attempting to bomb or cause chaos through the same means for a few years after the end of the second world war, even when their "Motherland" or what ever they wanted to coin it, had fallen.

There is also the suggestion that the US at that time was looking for a way to "spy" before satellites were eventually created, this involved the use of high altitude balloon listening devices that would be launched into the jet stream to circumnavigate the globe.

On top of that there are then a bunch of experiments that can be found involving dummy's being dropped from altitude and a few other bits and pieces kicking around.

The overall view of Roswell was it was Human related, Defense Department related (thats why there is no FBI records because the investigation was military based and they took control over it) It doesn't point to aliens, just a project or finding that they didn't want to alert media attention too, Perhaps "Aliens" was originally the coverup until that "joke" got a little to large for it's own good.

 

[VRob]

The overall view of Roswell was it was Human related, Defense Department related (thats why there is no FBI records because the investigation was military based and they took control over it) It doesn't point to aliens, just a project or finding that they didn't want to alert media attention too, Perhaps "Aliens" was originally the coverup until that "joke" got a little to large for it's own good.

 

[Avatar]

Good point, Stryder.