ABC News primetime special on UFOs

SkinWalker said:
Do you think he was biased "for" or "against" the UFO phenomenon and why?

In order for Jennings to remain credible he had to take the side of a skeptic. Remember people making sensational claims are not taken seriously.

He did obtain his goal of being skeptical. This was evident in the bias stand he took on Roswell. In the eyes of many this was a very inappropriate biased view and lacked any apparent attempt to take the subject seriously.

Jenning is not an investigative reporter. He is a media personality and his entire existence is choreographed.
 
I agree that what some people claim as UFOs can be, and most likely are, blimps. However, for most cases, I don't know of any blimp that can move erratically or heck, even for those slow moving ones that go back and forth, up and down, I don't know of any blimps that can do anything other than glide in one direction without having to take a few moments to slowly change course.

Seeing the slow movement of direction from a blimp would be obvious. When it comes to stationary type UFO cases, I don't really care for them because they could be anything. Just seeing a bright light barely moving isn't good enough. I actually would believe that the Phoenix Lights being flares if it weren't for the fact of the objects being seen near Las Vegas down to Arizona for many hours. If it just remained in the Phoenix area and that's it, and not for such a long period of time, I would think them being flares.

One question I do have in regards to them supposedly being flares dropped by a few A-10's. What happened to the noise produced by a squadron of A-10's flying by when launching those flares? Surely with so many people being outside to view the lights suddenly appearing, many of them would have heard the loud A-10's. Let me guess though, they were "gliding" along with their engines off like blimps? ;)

- N
 
This reminds me of the U.S. Government. For some reason SkinWalker feel's obligated to offer a more prosaic explanation, no matter how absurd, for every UFO case.

Saying those cops saw a blimp is pretty funny though.. :D

I could see if just one cop saw this, but several did. The same unexplained object, which was silent.
 
I'm skeptical about the flares being A-10 flares (which are for decoying IR sensors on missiles). I've seen these flares and they aren't as long lived as the ones in the video I saw. The "Phoenix Lights" videos I've seen are identical to artillery flares, which can be seen for many, many miles and reach very high altitudes, providing illumination for several square kilometers below. They fire these in sequence so as to create a chain of illumination over a battlefield for ground troops.

The effect was identical.

As for the blimp, I ask, "where's the video?" Relying on the eye-witness testimony of a few tired, bored cops is useless.... they say it was erratic. It was probably their driving that was erratic.

Sure the prosaic explanation is best without hard, physical evidence. Establishing belief on speculation is ignorant and useless. To say they "probably were alien craft" is ignorant when there are many, more likely and possible, explanations that are quite earthbound.
 
SkinWalker said:
I'm skeptical about the flares being A-10 flares (which are for decoying IR sensors on missiles). I've seen these flares and they aren't as long lived as the ones in the video I saw. The "Phoenix Lights" videos I've seen are identical to artillery flares, which can be seen for many, many miles and reach very high altitudes, providing illumination for several square kilometers below. They fire these in sequence so as to create a chain of illumination over a battlefield for ground troops.

The effect was identical.

As for the blimp, I ask, "where's the video?" Relying on the eye-witness testimony of a few tired, bored cops is useless.... they say it was erratic. It was probably their driving that was erratic.

Sure the prosaic explanation is best without hard, physical evidence. Establishing belief on speculation is ignorant and useless. To say they "probably were alien craft" is ignorant when there are many, more likely and possible, explanations that are quite earthbound.

Their driving was eratic!? what!? Oh man, I won't bother. :rolleyes:
 
by SkinWalker:
"The effect was identical."
==================================================

Do you have a video of those flares? Relying on the eye witness testimony based
on the distant memories of a single grunt is useless... (no offense, now!)

by SkinWalker:
"It was probably their driving that was erratic."
"Establishing belief on speculation is ignorant and useless."
=======================================================

Well said.
 
SkinWalker said:
I'm skeptical about the flares being A-10 flares (which are for decoying IR sensors on missiles). I've seen these flares and they aren't as long lived as the ones in the video I saw. The "Phoenix Lights" videos I've seen are identical to artillery flares, which can be seen for many, many miles and reach very high altitudes, providing illumination for several square kilometers below. They fire these in sequence so as to create a chain of illumination over a battlefield for ground troops.

Sure the prosaic explanation is best without hard, physical evidence. Establishing belief on speculation is ignorant and useless. To say they "probably were alien craft" is ignorant when there are many, more likely and possible, explanations that are quite earthbound.

Let's hear your more likely explanation. What natural phenomena you know of that look like silently floating black triangles, that block out the stars and have lights on them, as big as a football field, and float at 30 miles per hour? Let's hear your many more likely and possible explantions.

As for the stationary lights. Analyzed by a Mr. Diletoso using a computer program for light analysis. The spectrum analysis from those lights was very different from flares. The lights were of a much purer quality of frequency. Also a man looked at them with a telescope. He saw no flare smoke. He saw no swinging like a pendulum like flares do and saw no parachutes. He said the lights he saw in his telescope were like electric light globes and they were getting brighter and dimmer with a fast frequency, a pulsating kind of light. Don't sound like flares to me. His testimony about that was given on another program that I saw about the phoenix lights.

Nobody heard large artillery being fired. There wasn't any. Why even mention such absurd idea as artillery flares?
Why don't you call it swamp gas if you really want to be absurd. That seems to be your purpose, like project blue book, come up with any explanation, no matter how ridiculous, as long as it is not alien space craft.
 
2inquisitive said:
Do you have a video of those flares?

Nope. But it is a verified effect that has been observed by many soldiers and marines over the years. Alien spacecraft don't have that claim.

<img src="http://www.bragg.army.mil/1-321FAR/charlie/pics/Charlie%20Illum.JPG">
Illumination rounds at Fort Bragg (Note the URL in the image properties).

<img src="http://www.landscaper.net/images/Flares4th.jpg">
From only a kilometer or two away, you can see the smoke trails and sometimes the parachutes.

<img src="http://pao.hood.army.mil/1cd_1-21fa/images/nightfirepic.JPG">
Unrelated, but I was actually part of the operation that fired the missiles in this famous photo of A/21 Field Artillery firing from Kuwait in Desert Storm. I saw a LOT of illumination rounds and flares from A-10s while I was there (the A-10s used to practice dive bombing on my launcher by dropping flares instead of bombs!).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-92/fm792072.gif

The list of illumination rounds and types. The 105mm and 155mm Howitzer are the ones I'm familiar with... I've not observed the Air Force Drop Flares to the best of my knowledge. Though perhaps we all observed them in the Phoenix Lights video.
 
ghost7584 said:
Let's hear your more likely explanation. What natural phenomena you know of that look like silently floating black triangles, that block out the stars and have lights on them, as big as a football field, and float at 30 miles per hour? Let's hear your many more likely and possible explantions.

The most likely explanation is the one I offered: tired, bored cops observing a dirigible at night, a phenomenon that none had ever experienced so their inexperienced minds filled in the blanks as it were. This is a very well documented phenomenon with the human mind.

ghost7584 said:
As for the stationary lights. Analyzed by a Mr. Diletoso using a computer program for light analysis. The spectrum analysis from those lights was very different from flares.

A bunch of bunk. It would be impossible for him to get a useable analysis from a video tape. But if you're so sure, point us to the citation of his paper with his methodology and results.

ghost7584 said:
Also a man looked at them with a telescope. He saw no flare smoke. He saw no swinging like a pendulum like flares do and saw no parachutes.

Also not uncharacteristic of illumination rounds, particularly if the Met was stable at the altitude of the rounds. The flares burn extremely bright, making it difficult to see the smoke & parachutes when under magnification binoculars. I would think the same effect would apply to a telescope.

ghost7584 said:

Yes... I'm sure he did.

ghost7584 said:
Nobody heard large artillery being fired.

Not surprising. Particularly if the rounds were fired several kilometers away and behind a mountain (which they were, this is one of the reasons why they appear to "disappear" at the same time, if I remember the video correctly).

Face it. They were flares. QED.
 
SkinWalker said:
The most likely explanation is the one I offered: tired, bored cops observing a dirigible at night, a phenomenon that none had ever experienced so their inexperienced minds filled in the blanks as it were. This is a very well documented phenomenon with the human mind.

However, there were several civilians, well rested, at home, not bored, they saw the same thing. Had dinner awhile before seeing it so they probably had high energy levels too.

Police are considered trained observers, it is part of their police training at the academy. The police couldn't identify it, except to say it was a large black triangle blocking out the stars, so the lights were connected to an aircraft floating silently.
[A second grader can probably identify a large black triangle floating with no noise and tell you that is what he saw; because that is what it was.]
 
by SkinWalker:

"Not surprising. Particularly if the rounds were fired several kilometers away and behind a mountain (which they were, this is one of the reasons why they appear to "disappear" at the same time, if I remember the video correctly).

Face it. They were flares. QED."
=========================================================

You really need to get off this 'artillery round flares' thing, SkinWalker. There is a
Army National Guard unit headquartered in Phoenix, but the nearest location they
hold training exercises is in the Florence Military Reserve, 80 kilometers SE of Phoenix.
I am ex-military too, and I know the military doesn't go around shooting off artillery
over just any location for practice. They have never stated they did, either. After at
first denying anything happened, a few months later, Luke AFB stated they fired some
decoy flares that night. You know, the rocket propelled kind meant to attract heat-
seeking missiles. The kind that leave a smoke trail and only stay in the air a short time
because they have no parachutes to keep them aloft. That is the official military explaination, no artillery flares.
 
Originally posted by SkinWalker
I'm skeptical about the flares being A-10 flares (which are for decoying IR sensors on missiles). I've seen these flares and they aren't as long lived as the ones in the video I saw. The "Phoenix Lights" videos I've seen are identical to artillery flares, which can be seen for many, many miles and reach very high altitudes, providing illumination for several square kilometers below. They fire these in sequence so as to create a chain of illumination over a battlefield for ground troops.

I agree, there is NO way those flares were from A-10's, and the guy on that show had no clue what he was talking about. I'm not familiar with any aircraft training exercise that has the pilots drop flares in a precise shape at the precise altitude. What's the point? The flares carried by aircraft are countermeasures, and do not usually go off in a delayed timing.

About the artillery explaination, why would they perform the exercise right over Phoenix? And why would the military not say that they did it?
 
orestes said:
I agree, there is NO way those flares were from A-10's, and the guy on that show had no clue what he was talking about. I'm not familiar with any aircraft training exercise that has the pilots drop flares in a precise shape at the precise altitude. What's the point? The flares carried by aircraft are countermeasures, and do not usually go off in a delayed timing.

About the artillery explaination, why would they perform the exercise right over Phoenix? And why would the military not say that they did it?

Why would anyone feed into what Skinwalker has suggested?

The fact of the matter is that the Lights, were filmed at a later time of day, after the initial UFO sighting had occurred.

You cannot try to explain what a Ford Pickup looks like by showing and describing a grasshopper.
 
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Starman said:
The fact of the matter is that the Lights, were filmed at a later time of day, after the initial UFO sighting had occurred.

I've been discussing the video that was shot in the hour of 10:00 pm (I don't remember the exact time off the top of my head). I've not been discussing the lights people saw that supposedly started in Prescott or Paulden. But if these lights are related, then they can only support the flare hypothesis.

Here are the facts:

1) At the graphic that I linked above that has the table of illumination flares, you'll note that there is an air-dropped illum round used by the Air Force. These are not the same as those used by the A-10 Warthogs.

2) The video was shot depicting the direction of Sierra Estrella, which is to the south west of Phoenix. Indeed, the faint outline of the mountain can be seen in the video.

3) The flares disappear from sight as they pass behind the mountain.

4) From Phoenix, toward the direction of Sierra Estrella in the southwest, is the Barry M. Goldwater Air Force Range.

5) According to GlobalSecurity.org, this range "serves the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Marine Corps as an armament and high-hazard testing area; a training area for aerial gunnery, rocketry, electronic warfare, and tactical maneuvering and air support; and a place to develop equipment and tactics. [...]This southwest Arizona military range is used by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Marine Corps for aerial combat training (air-to-air and air-to-ground), as well as for land-based combat training operations."

6) The range itself begins between 20 and 50 miles from Phoenix.

7) Witness reported "V" shaped formation of lights traveling across AZ toward the range (Ortega, 1998).

8) Military aircraft often fly in "V"-Shaped formations.

9) Witnesses reported that the lights appeared connected (Ortega, 1998).

10) Other witnesses reported differently. In fact, Mitch Stanley, the owner of a large Dobsonian telescope, pointed his instrument at the lights and told his mother, when she asked, that he saw "planes" (Ortega, 1998).

11) Tuscan Weekly reported the statement of an Arizona National Guard public information officer, Captain Eileen Bienz, who "had determined that the flares had been dropped at 10 p.m. over the North Tac range 30 miles southwest of Phoenix, at an unusually high altitude: 15,000 feet" (Ortega, 1998).

12) Maryland NG stated that they did not fly north of Phoenix, so they weren't the MD NG A-10s (Ortega, 1998).

13) Jim Dilettoso claimed that he performed "computerized tests" at "Village Labs" on the video of the flares that produced evidence that these were not flares, "whatever caused the 10 p.m. event, Dilettoso claims, was like no source of manmade light" (Ortega, 1998).

14) Dilettoso also "tested" the photos of Eduard "Billy" Meier. Or so Dilettoso said (Ortega, 1998).

15) A camcorder cannot record the detailed spectrum of light needed to determine what Dilettoso claims and Dilettoso has yet to publish his "methodolgy" that has allowed him to do what a camcorder is unable to do. In the words of the Phoenix New Times article: "Trying to do spectral analysis on the image produced by a camcorder [...] would be like testing a portrait of Abraham Lincoln for his DNA" (Ortega, 1998).

Starman said:
You cannot try to explain what a Ford Pickup looks like by showing and describing a grasshopper.

No. But one can easily begin to explain things that are airborne by describing real things that are airborne. But you would have to be open-minded to accept that what occurred in Phoenix wasn't alien spacecraft. The closed-minded person sees only alien spacecraft; hopes for alien spacecraft; wants alien spacecraft; and believes only alien spacecraft.

The open-minded person, such as myself, accepts that alien spacecraft are possible, but there are far more probable explanations that fit the events much better than alien spacecraft. Objects and events that have been observed, verified, and recorded with authority being chosen over fantastical objects or events that are mythical and elude objective observation, verification and record.

A friend pointed me to this newspaper article below. I'm hopeful that you will each read it, though I expect one of you might discard it once you come across the first critical statement against his/her established belief system.

References

Ortega, Tony (March 5, 1998). The Hack and the Quack. Phoenix New Times.
 
SkinWalker said:
I've been discussing the video that was shot in the hour of 10:00 pm (I don't remember the exact time off the top of my head). I've not been discussing the lights people saw that supposedly started in Prescott or Paulden. But if these lights are related, then they can only support the flare hypothesis.

Yes, what was filmed in the video was most likely flares.

Those who witnessed the large triangular object observed something completely different.

The flares were no doubt an immediate reaction of the military to start a disinformation event and to discredit the sightings earlier in the evening. It worked as planned.
 
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What crap. You obviously didn't read the rest of my post above, either. The military doesn't go about dropping flares to cover for alien spacecraft and create disinformation. That kind of conspiracy theory is utter crap.

The so-called "solid, triangular object" was observed by many to be several objects, not a solid one. The woo-woos don't accept this and the news media doesn't like to report their accounts because they're not sensational enough.

See the reference I cited above.

But the woo-woo habit is to be close-minded and accept only those explanations that fit their mold of alien spacecraft, regardless of simplier, more probable explanations such as military manuevers, flares, and a flight of aircraft.

Bleh.
 
SkinWalker said:
What crap. You obviously didn't read the rest of my post above, either. The military doesn't go about dropping flares to cover for alien spacecraft and create disinformation. That kind of conspiracy theory is utter crap.

How in the hell would you know???

Conspiracies have been proven to occur quite often within our Govmt/military.

The only crap being spewn here is your ignorant opinion, which you often times attempt to translate as fact.

But please, do enlighten us as to how you know that the military wouldn't drop flares over a major US City in an attempt to cover up for an unknown event, or even a secret military project gone of course. I'm all ears.
 
Here's a few question for all those who so easily accept the Militaries 2nd, 3rd, ect.. explanation for Roswell being a mere weather balloon.


1. If it was only a mogel balloon, then why did Col. Blanchard(The commanding officer of the Roswell base at the time) issue a press release, AFTER examining the debris brought to the base, stating that they had recovered a flying disc of unknown origin? Do you really think that everyone at the base who examined the debris could not identify it as Man-made?? This was not some off the beaten path military base. This was the ONLY Military base in the World with Atomic weapons. The press release came directly from the base commander. It was later contradicted by General Roger Ramey in Austin Texas, AFTER parts of the debris were sent to him.

2. After the debris was collected and examined at Roswell, parts of it were immediately sent to Texas(Ramey), Washington DC, and Wright/Patterson base in Ohio. All under heavy guard. Would this have occured if it was simply a mogel weather balloon? I have a very difficult time accepting this.

3. The Roswell base experienced an unusually high amount of intelligence, political and military traffic over the few days(week) of the announcement. The base was said to be crawling with bigwigs, and non-uniformed personel. Why would this have happened over a simple mogel balloon?

4. Mac Brazel, the civilian who first notified the Roswell base of the debris in his field, was held at the base for 3 days. Why would they hold this man if it was simply a balloon?

Now this information in itself doesn't prove anything, but IMO, it certainly brings into question the theory that what was recovered was nothing more than a weather balloon. Can anyone explain to me why these things would have all occured because of a weather balloon that supposedly nobody except Gen. Roger Ramey could identify?
 
VRob said:
How in the hell would you know???

When have they ever been demonstrated to create a diversion for alien spacecraft in the past?

Moreover, the range where the flares were dropped was being used by the Maryland National Guard for manuevers. You obviously didn't read the link I provided either.

Talke about ignorance and arrogance...
 
VRob said:
1. If it was only a mogel balloon, then why did Col. Blanchard(The commanding officer of the Roswell base at the time) issue a press release, AFTER examining the debris brought to the base, stating that they had recovered a flying disc of unknown origin?


He obviously held the same hysterical belief of 'flying saucers' that was gripping the rest of the nation and, when encountering material he had never seen, made some stupid assumptions. The guy should have been charged with several violations of the UCMJ for making a press statement regarding Cold War military operation and been court-martialed as a result.

VRob said:
2. After the debris was collected and examined at Roswell, parts of it were immediately sent to Texas(Ramey), Washington DC, and Wright/Patterson base in Ohio. All under heavy guard. Would this have occured if it was simply a mogel weather balloon? I have a very difficult time accepting this.

The materials were new and the nature of the operation was secretive. Would you expect anything different? Why wouldn't the military keep their operations against the Soviet Union as secretive as they could?

VRob said:
3. The Roswell base experienced an unusually high amount of intelligence, political and military traffic over the few days(week) of the announcement. The base was said to be crawling with bigwigs, and non-uniformed personel. Why would this have happened over a simple mogel balloon?

National security surrounding a Cold War operation. If, indeed, the buzz was as significant as you want to claim.

VRob said:
4. Mac Brazel, the civilian who first notified the Roswell base of the debris in his field, was held at the base for 3 days. Why would they hold this man if it was simply a balloon?

Why hold brown-skinned people who speak Farsi and pray to the east for no other reason than they have brown skin, speak a language other-than-Spanish, and pray to the East? If, indeed, it happened as you say it did.

I've no doubt that you read these things in one of the many fictional books on Roswell that pass themselves off as "non-fiction," but that doesn't mean they are, indeed, factual. If the guy was held, it's very likely that we don't have the full context of his situation.

VRob said:
Now this information in itself doesn't prove anything,

No shit.

VRob said:
Can anyone explain to me why these things would have all occured because of a weather balloon that supposedly nobody except Gen. Roger Ramey could identify?

It wasn't a weather balloon. It was a high-altitude balloon system that had new or protype technologies involved. The very material of the balloons themselves were probably classified at that time. The Cold War created paranoia and secrecy such as the nation has never seen. One need only read some history unrelated to Roswell, but related to the Cold War to realize this. I recommend Melvyn P. Leffler's The Specter of Communism.

Face it. Roswell, the holy grail of Ufoology, is a myth with regard to a "crashed alien spaceship."
 
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