Zionist piracy

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electric said:

The videos of the beating and stabbing and of the protesters on the ship can't simply be dismissed as Israeli propaganda, you have to prove that these videos are false.
Not at this stage of the game. We've been around the rosy often enough with Israeli media plants to be justified in suspending judgment without evidence either way - at least.

Israel official media releases get no benefit of the doubt from reasonable people.

That's without noting that ship crews in international waters are justified in treating armed assault in any way they see fit.
electric said:
So if I go up to a cop and hit him with a metal pipe and he shots me dead, its his fault? Let say I'm attemting to enter a building I'm not athorized to enter and a guards try to remove me, so I start stabbing them, they shot me dead, and its there fault?
You seem to have the roles reversed, in your analogy. The Israelis were boarding the ship - i.e. "building" - the metal pipe is in the hands of the ship crew - i.e. "guards" - etc.
 
The other five ships were too small to board from helicopters. Why don't people think of the logistics? Of the 700 activists almost all were on the Mavi Marmara.

So? I guess when you put hundreds a Muslims together instead of just a few, they work themselves into a suicidal kill the Jews rage.

How could the other passengers attack when they were not boarded at dawn?

huh?

If I were in their position, I wouldn't have taken the guns and emptied the magazines or thrown them overboard. I would have shot out their kneecaps because thats the only accountability they would ever face for killing innocent people for no reason.

I would have simply ask my self what would Gandhi do, and I would merely stand there blocking the way and wait for my end.

"Non-violent resistors will calmly die wherever they are but they will not bend the knee before the aggressor."
-- A better person then you.
 
The other five ships were too small to board from helicopters. Why don't people think of the logistics?

I think I'd be interested to see that this was definitively so. You mean the ships were physically too small?

If I were in their position, I wouldn't have taken the guns and emptied the magazines or thrown them overboard. I would have shot out their kneecaps because thats the only accountability they would ever face for killing innocent people for no reason.

Forgetting that until they were attacked, they didn't draw their guns. Meaning that you would have harmed innocent people for no reason. Then again, beating people with iron "sticks" fits into the same category.
 
Not at this stage of the game. We've been around the rosy often enough with Israeli media plants to be justified in suspending judgment without evidence either way - at least.

Israel official media releases get no benefit of the doubt from reasonable people.

I never said there official media release was without question, but the videos of the protesters ad very difficult to believe forgeries. Now are you denying the protester acted violently or are you as you are already admitting they did and saying they did so in self defense?

That's without noting that ship crews in international waters are justified in treating armed assault in any way they see fit.

Aaaaaaaaaaah no.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rolls-with-the-law-of-the-sea/article1589981/

You seem to have the roles reversed, in your analogy. The Israelis were boarding the ship - i.e. "building" - the metal pipe is in the hands of the ship crew - i.e. "guards" - etc.

The flotilla was violating a blockade, they were not trained or armed enforces, they were the attacker on the guards... No I got the roles right
 
Pro-Israelis would change the law so ships could be attacked in international waters rather than admit Israel was wrong.
 
Forgetting that until they were attacked, they didn't draw their guns. Meaning that you would have harmed innocent people for no reason. Then again, beating people with iron "sticks" fits into the same category.

This is the IDF we're talking about. They shoot children in the head and chest. They arrest, incarcerate and torture children. The notion that they need provocation is so idiotic that it would be funny if there weren't 400 dead children killed in 15 days at last count. Now, just because they bawl like babies when confronted by people defending themselves, lets not forget that these are people who shoot first and ask questions later. Activists were shot from the helicopters during the hour of the fajr prayer. Now unless Spiderman was among them the IDF killed 9 or 17 civilians in international waters to defend a criminal blockade of inter alia, shoes and pasta.
 
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electric said:

That's without noting that ship crews in international waters are justified in treating armed assault in any way they see fit.

Aaaaaaaaaaah no.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1589981/
Neither of those links address the question of legitimate response to being boarded by force in international waters.

Legally, apparently, Israel can land commandos on any ship in the Mediterranean, justified by whatever Israel considers to be the needs of its aggression against Gaza and its oppression of the Palestinians there - at least, we have that opinion from experts. But the question was what the people on those ships can - legally and justifiably - do in response.
electric said:
I never said there official media release was without question, but the videos of the protesters ad very difficult to believe forgeries.
When dealing with a propaganda operation as sophisticated and experienced as Israel's, the question is not only forgery - although outright forgery is of course a possibility - but also subtle alteration, careful and clever editing, and all the other techniques of Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
 
Neither of those links address the question of legitimate response to being boarded by force in international waters.

yes they do:

"Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say."

Legally, apparently, Israel can land commandos on any ship in the Mediterranean, justified by whatever Israel considers to be the needs of its aggression against Gaza and its oppression of the Palestinians there - at least, we have that opinion from experts. But the question was what the people on those ships can - legally and justifiably - do in response.

that too:

"Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments."


When dealing with a propaganda operation as sophisticated and experienced as Israel's, the question is not only forgery - although outright forgery is of course a possibility - but also subtle alteration, careful and clever editing,

No amount of clever editing or subtle alteration could get around the fact that in one complete scene Israelis come down and are beaten by a horde of protesters.

and all the other techniques of Hollywood and Madison Avenue.

So your telling me the videos are CGI?
 
This is the IDF we're talking about.

And the protestors, yes.

The notion that they need provocation is so idiotic that it would be funny if there weren't 400 dead children killed in 15 days at last count.

Well, that explains the other ships, then. Small as they were, surely they could have summoned up the courage for at least one beating?

Now, just because they bawl like babies when confronted by people defending themselves, lets not forget that these are people who shoot first and ask questions later. Activists were shot from the helicopters during the hour of the fajr prayer.

Proof? This appears to be debatable.
 
You know, if those activists hadn't jumped the Israelis and taken away their guns, how many more people would they have executed? The activists saved many many lives by taking the guns away from them. That was very brave considering how inhumane and indiscriminate the Israeli soldiers are. So they got a little roughed up and started bawling. Thats the elite commando unit. I guess they are used to attacking defenceless people at a distance. It must have been quite a change to have people close enough to fight back.
 
electric said:
Neither of those links address the question of legitimate response to being boarded by force in international waters.

yes they do:

"Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say."
Uh, dude, once more: we already have been informed by experts that Israel, by creating a state of belligerence and hostility in Gaza, has acquired for itself the legal justification to helicopter armed commandos unto any ship in the Mediterranean Sea.

Fine.

But the question I asked was not about that. It was: what are the legally justified responses of the crews and passengers on one of those ships, to the sudden event of armed assault?

Put it another way: if I were a Somali pirate, would I expect to be welcomed on board my target ships after bribing my government - some local branch, maybe - to declare whatever it is that Israel has declared against Gaza (it isn't war, AFAIK) against my nearby coastal enemies?
electric said:
No amount of clever editing or subtle alteration could get around the fact that in one complete scene Israelis come down and are beaten by a horde of protesters.
You keep telling yourself that there's no way you could be misled by a video editor, if you want to believe that.

It's been a few years now since I trusted anything out of the Israeli military official media relations - too many times bitten, permanently shy.
 
Criminals should tell the courts they were "taking the guns away to remove the ammo so they'd be harmless" everytime they unsuccessfully try to snatch one out of a cop's holster.

Folks, don't you understand? The passengers were emotional and came out to embrace the soldiers with joy, and were shocked when those same soldiers started throwing grenades at babies onboard the ship. In response, they switched tactics and began inititating little stabs of love in order to help the IDF soldiers see the errors of their ways.
 
You know, if those activists hadn't jumped the Israelis and taken away their guns, how many more people would they have executed?

Since they were mobbed when they first descended, my suspicion is "none". This is kind of a non sequitur also.
 
But the question I asked was not about that. It was: what are the legally justified responses of the crews and passengers on one of those ships, to the sudden event of armed assault?

Their justifiable response is to not resist, they were being arguably legally boarded for attempting to run a blockade in a non-war situation. The Israelis were allowed to utilized equal or greater force against any protester resistance.

Put it another way: if I were a Somali pirate, would I expect to be welcomed on board my target ships after bribing my government - some local branch, maybe - to declare whatever it is that Israel has declared against Gaza (it isn't war, AFAIK) against my nearby coastal enemies?
You keep telling yourself that there's no way you could be misled by a video editor, if you want to believe that.

1. Somali pirates are not a state.
2. Somali pirates are not allow to make a blockade
3. Somali pirates would not try diplomacy first.
4. Somali pirates would not come in armed with primarily less-then lethal weapons.

It's been a few years now since I trusted anything out of the Israeli military official media relations - too many times bitten, permanently shy.

Ask your self, how could they fake this and occam's razor. More so the burden of proof is on you, we provided our evidence you need to provide evidence that these videos are fake, not suspicions.

You know, if those activists hadn't jumped the Israelis and taken away their guns, how many more people would they have executed?

None, the other ships stand as proof of that.

It must have been quite a change to have people close enough to fight back.


No, that happened before.
 
... This is standard colonist behaviour, ie destruction of local self sufficiency. You may be interested in examining why Gandhi is depicted with the spinning wheel ie charkha and why khadi or handwoven cotton was such an important part of the Indian freedom movement. Its the kind of story that would appeal to those who favour the underdog :p
Thanks. I know a good deal, for a non-Indian, about Gandhi as he was my hero when I was active in the civil rights movement. I knew he spun cotton into threads with which he made cloth for all his own clothes, marched considerable distance to the sea to make salt, rather than pay the tax on it the Brits imposed, etc.

I thought of this as due to fact he favored self sufficiency in a simple life, but until your post, I never connected this to what I now understand is the nearly universal policy of a powerful oppressor in frustrating the abused captives* to be completely dependent upon them. Saddam did this too - he had warehouses of food that he gave out. - The only way many could eat.

In Israel's case this is best illustrated with their permission to import expensive clothes and frozen fish, but their blockade of of cloth, thread and sewing needles and all fishing supplies such as rods, hooks etc, needed to catch fish from the Med your self.

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* "Captives" is the correct word. - Gaza is a large, poorly supplied, prison from which the Palestinians can rarely leave and then only with the permission of their captors.

PS - I have added a brief comment to end post 1444, in red, by edit to encourage someone who can to check and see if the video of the "hate rally" was really made on the ship, or in a studio. I.e. the ship roll frequency for computer correlation processing looking for the subtle postural sway that should be present, if made on the ship, is accurately known.
 
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This thread focuses on one incident in the global struggle for the civil rights of all humans, be they living in Burma or the Palestinians in this case. Civil rights like the freedom of personnel movement, the right to education, health services, the right to work and improve your lot, to freely export and import goods of peaceful commerce, the right to peacefully assemble, yes even to peacefully protest against the government, etc. – all of which Israel denies to the Palestinians in greater or lesser extent. Before becoming more general, I will clearly state that Israel has the right to interdict weapons that may be used against it, by whatever means are necessary. Now I want to tell of one incident from the US civil rights movement as it illustrates that there are malicious people abusing this grand historic movement:

Cambridge MD, is on the south side of the wide, tidally flooded, Choptank river, not far from the Chesapeake Bay and about 100 miles closer to the Atlantic Ocean than Baltimore. Thus, 200 years before the US civil rights movement, with its fine harbor for sailing ships and surrounding level fertile fields, it was larger and more important economically than Baltimore; but during the civil rights movement many stores on the long, straight main street were boarded up. That street was where horse races were held 200 years ago, and hence still is called “Race Street” One of the main industries during the civil rights movement was the Eastern Shore {Mental} State Hospital. (Largest in Maryland, but now thanks to modern drugs, is converted into a resort hotel on the bank of the Choptank River - great crabbing, fishing, sailing with clean rural air etc.) My father was the chief of medical services there so I took a break from my graduate studies at JHU in Baltimore to visit with him once a month or so and drove the length of Race Street to do so.

One Saturday AM, Race Street was blocked because as the cop told me: “Some trouble making niggers are in town demonstrating.” As I was active in Baltimore’s civil rights movement, I parked my VW Beatle and walked to see. Yes, there were about 50 blacks parading up and down on Race Street. I was very surprise as Cambridge was a very “red neck,” economically depressed, town with thoroughly intimidated blacks. There were no whites marching with them, so despite some fear for my personal safety and some concern that one of my father’s friends might recognize me, I decided to make a token appearance in the march – only of a couple of blocks duration, before returning to my car.

I asked the leader, if I could join and was very welcomed. From him the mystery of how 50 blacks could be persuaded to march down Race Street was solved – they were bused in from Baltimore. I only understood why this bus trip was organized by that leader some years later. I am now sure he was hoping some red neck would kill someone –Me would be the best possible result from his point of view. (A murdered protesting "nigger" might make the back pages of the Baltimore Sun, if it was a "slow news day" but me, Ph.D. student at JHU, killed by a Cambridge red neck, would merit a brief summary inch on the front page and a longer story inside that section.) At the time I knew nothing about the leader, who was “H. Rap Brown.”**

I tell this story to acknowledge that, IMHO, it is highly likely that there were similar trouble makers on the ship, hoping for someone to be killed by the Israelis. However, the fundamental reason nine are dead, is Israel’s policy (now recognized by me to be common to all oppressors – See my just made post 1477) of making the Palestinians totally dependent upon Israel, just to live.
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** "H. Rap Brown, came to prominence in the 1960s as chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and later the Justice Minister of the Black Panther Party. He is perhaps most famous for his proclamation during that period that "violence is as American as cherry pie", as well as once stating that "If America don't come around, we're gonna burn it down". He is currently serving a life sentence for homicide. ..."

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_Rap_Brown
 
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I tell this story to acknowledge that, IMHO, it is highly likely that there were similar trouble makers on the ship, hoping for someone to be killed by the Israelis. However, the fundamental reason nine are dead, is Israel’s policy (now recognized by me to be common to all oppressors – See my just made post 1477) of making the Palestinians totally dependent upon Israel, just to live.

No that makes no sense, mind you I don't approve of Israel treatment of the Palestinians or the blockade. Your logic leads to the simple philosophy that one is not accountable for this own actions: I killed that man because he fucked my wife, its his fault he is dead, I raped that women because she was dress indecently, it her fault, I stole that money because someone left it there, it that person fault, etc, etc, this philosophy is rejected in the western world (though the middle on is often accepted in the Muslim world) in almost all cases except for self-defense from eminent death or bodily harm, the protester alone are at fault for attacking the boarding soldiers, the soldiers were in the right for shooting those that were clubbing and stabbing them.
 
Billy, I thank you for acknowledging the case as specific; I appreciate the general as well, naturally. I've stated a position on that a few times, but my solution is probably a little simplistic in its own right.
 
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