Zionist piracy

[Billy T]

Such as an armed mobbing with iron "sticks". ...

I think that was self defense* but anyway is a very minor compared to Israel's rounding up the peaceful Bedouins (who never even fired a shot at any Israeli) in to concentration camp** cities on less than 1% of the Negev Desert (and the worst part of The Negev, which no Israeli wanted).

The "crime" of the Bedouins was to have occupied the Sinai and Negev for more than 5000 years before Israel existed and decided to take their lands for Jewish settlers without any compensation. Do you defend that Israeli action too?

--------------
*Not very effective self defense for the nine that died.

** BTW, I define a “concentration camp” as a tiny part of your former home land with armed guards surrounding it to prevent you from leaving. Israel’s “Green Forces” are these guards. (So named as they are “protecting the fragile Negev” from Bedouins trying to use it as they did for 5000 years.) Also the land the concentration camp is on is so poor and / or so crowed that it is impossible for the prisoners to grow their own food or get water. I.e. the prisoners are totally dependent upon their captors for the basics of life. Israel trucks in the essential food and water, more than the Nazis did, but still there are no fat Bedouins anymore. I think it would be amusing to hear how you think Israel's concentration camps for the Bedouins differ from the Nazi's (except of course that the Israel learned not to kill their victims too quickly as the rest of the world takes action if that is done too quickly. Then extermination of Bedouin culture is complete but at least 15 or 20% of the Bedouins still live in these camps. Their complete extermination will take at least a decade more.)

 

[pjdude1219]

useless repeated bs that has been refuted

Seriously, pj: does this kind of trolling generate a moment's regret or hesitation at any point?

their is no applicable answer to your query. I'm not trolling though the same can't be said for you.. it is not trolling to point out the falsehoods and lies in your posts. though in someone showing the ego problems you do its not hard to see how you would view it as such.

 

[pjdude1219]

I think that was self defense* but anyway is a very minor compared to Israel's rounding up the peaceful Bedouins (who never even fired a shot at any Israeli) in to concentration camp cities on less than 1% of the Negev Desert (and the worst part of The Negev, which no Israeli wanted).

The "crime" of the Bedouins was to have occupied the Sinai and Negev for more than 5000 years before Israel existed and decided to take their lands without any compensation.

--------------
*Not very effective self defense for the nine that died.

he refuses to acknowledge the fact that if the Israelis acted in a nonviolent non aggressive way they had no expectations of being harmed(going in violently and aggressively like they did is another story. to someone familiar with the way Israel treats non violent protesters its rather clear they were trying to provoke a fight or flight response) he also refuses to acknowledge that the protesters had every reason to have expectations of being harmed even if they acted in the most docile manner possible. evidence being, though I don't mean to be a broken record, with the incident with Emily Henochowicz shows that their is intent in Israel to harm peaceful protesters.

 

[Bells]

Such as an armed mobbing with iron "sticks".

How many people were on that ship?

And yet, not a single Israeli soldier died. But 9 people were shot numerous times, most of them in the back of the head or in the back.

Now, lets look at his a bit closely, shall we? Apparently this ship was full of armed and angry thugs with iron sticks. Yet they didn't kill a single soldier. There are even images of them treating the Israelis who had been wounded. I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.. Why were no Israelis killed? There was ample opportunity to kill them as they stormed those ships. Why are they all alive? It's not out of skill. They were effectively disarmed when they stormed the ships. So why didn't the 'armed mob' kill them?

Which explains intimately the massive orgies of blood on the other five ships of the flotilla.

Or, wait: it explains the non-orgies, I guess.

Again. Why didn't the activists.. you know.. 'the hateful anti-semitic ones' on that boat, kill a single Israeli soldier? Why did they give them first aid?

9 people killed.. all activists.. All killed with bullet wounds.. multiple bullet wounds and the majority of them were shot at close range and in the back.

So tell me, why were no Israelis killed? Why did those apparently evil and violent Jew hating activists not kill a single Jewish soldier and offered them first aid?

Excepting, of course, that the other five ships then suggests they had an 83.3% chance of not being harmed.

I wonder, O I wonder, what possible complicating reason there could have been for the tragedy?

Refer to above.

Can you explain to me why you'd shoot someone at close range in the back of the head and in the back.. and then shoot them in the stomach, chest and legs? Or vice versa. Lets say you've shot someone at close range in the stomach/chest and legs. Why then shoot them at close range in the back of the head? What is the purpose of that kill shot(s) at close range in the back of the head? And lets say that was the first shot and they shoot someone in the back of the head at close range. Why then go on to keep shooting them? It does not make sense to me. So can you explain it to me please?

Is there a reason why you'd shoot someone in the back of the head and then keep shooting at their body? Is there a reason why you'd shoot someone in the back and front (if the headshot wasn't the first shot) and then shoot them in the back of the head? Either way I'm looking at it, it does not make sense to me.

Except for all the posted videos.

You mean all the ones posted and edited by the IDF (which they admitted to doing) after they confiscated all the videos and the equipment of all the journalists who were there who had captured and filmed and photographed it all.

Tell me Geoff, do you value the free press? Or do you support censorship?

Do you think Israel should release the videos shot by the journalists on those ships? To what purpose are they not releasing it? To what purpose do they deny journalists the right to report without interference? One Australian journalist (which was linked many pages ago) was tasered as she did her job, even after she identified herself as a photo journalist and advised them that her paper had contacted the Israeli Government (which the Israeli ambassador had advised they had received) to tell them that she would be on those ships and that as allowed by law, she and the other journalist from the paper should not be interfered as they did their job. All of their equipment was confiscated, everything except for the cards she managed to hide on her body through the strip search they did on her..

So, do you agree with a free press Geoff? Or do you think the press should not be allowed to record and present what they are seeing?

 

[ElectricFetus]

pjdude1219,

But the protesters did not act in the most docile manner possible, by defending themselves they became non-peaceful, by preparing ahead of time with makeshift weapons and knifes they were not even defending them selves but preparing to attack. The other ships provided example of peaceful protest and no-one dead there and the crew gave minimal resistance.

The Israelis totalitarian torture of the Palestinians is a different issue and a red haring from you and others here on the fact these protesters on that ship were no peaceful. We can all agree the Israelis treatment of the Palestinians is unacceptable but that has nothing to do with the fact that many of the Mavi Marmara crew behaved poorly.

 

[ElectricFetus]

How many people were on that ship?

And yet, not a single Israeli soldier died. But 9 people were shot numerous times, most of them in the back of the head or in the back.

Now, lets look at his a bit closely, shall we? Apparently this ship was full of armed and angry thugs with iron sticks. Yet they didn't kill a single soldier. There are even images of them treating the Israelis who had been wounded.

There even images of them betting the shit out of, stabbing and throwing soilders overboard, the fact no solider died was a miracle.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.. Why were no Israelis killed? There was ample opportunity to kill them as they stormed those ships. Why are they all alive?

The heavy body armer, probably them shotting their pistols wildly at anything around them to get the thugs to stand back?

It's not out of skill. They were effectively disarmed when they stormed the ships. So why didn't the 'armed mob' kill them?

Sure looked like they were trying from the videos.

Again. Why didn't the activists.. you know.. 'the hateful anti-semitic ones' on that boat, kill a single Israeli soldier? Why did they give them first aid?

Because there hateful anti-semitic ones were not the ones in the lower decks giving first aid? Mind you if these people had no intent to harm and kill there would have been no soldiers injured needing medical care.

9 people killed.. all activists.. All killed with bullet wounds.. multiple bullet wounds and the majority of them were shot at close range and in the back.

Makes sense to me, your surrounded by thugs in the dark hitting and stabbing you, you pull out your pistol and shot wildly in all directions with your pistols, thugs turn around and run, bullets keep flying out until the magazine is unloaded and the solider has some time to cool down.

So tell me, why were no Israelis killed? Why did those apparently evil and violent Jew hating activists not kill a single Jewish soldier and offered them first aid?

Why did they need to offer them first aid? The protesters were armed with whacking sticks and small knifes, maybe possibly a pistol or two among the whole of the crew, takes a lot to kill a man in heavy body armor with that, scare him, piss him off certainly and considering the video evidence of many of the ones that dead were planning on martyrdom they did all they could to get shot.

Can you explain to me why you'd shoot someone at close range in the back of the head and in the back.. and then shoot them in the stomach, chest and legs? Or vice versa. Lets say you've shot someone at close range in the stomach/chest and legs. Why then shoot them at close range in the back of the head? What is the purpose of that kill shot(s) at close range in the back of the head? And lets say that was the first shot and they shoot someone in the back of the head at close range. Why then go on to keep shooting them? It does not make sense to me. So can you explain it to me please?

Considering he close quarters and darkness and all the whacking and stabbing it makes total sense.

Is there a reason why you'd shoot someone in the back of the head and then keep shooting at their body?

Because your confused and discombobulated by people wacking and stabbing you from all around, you keep shooting on the corpse the falls on you, you keep shotting from the ground hitting legs and stomachs

Is there a reason why you'd shoot someone in the back and front (if the headshot wasn't the first shot) and then shoot them in the back of the head?

Your being attack person falls on you even after putting bullets in him, he still garbing at you, you put the gun to his head to end the attacking faster.

Either way I'm looking at it, it does not make sense to me.

Of course not.

You mean all the ones posted and edited by the IDF (which they admitted to doing) after they confiscated all the videos and the equipment of all the journalists who were there who had captured and filmed and photographed it all.

Does that make the videos unreal, are they CGI?

Do you think Israel should release the videos shot by the journalists on those ships? To what purpose are they not releasing it? To what purpose do they deny journalists the right to report without interference? One Australian journalist (which was linked many pages ago) was tasered as she did her job, even after she identified herself as a photo journalist and advised them that her paper had contacted the Israeli Government (which the Israeli ambassador had advised they had received) to tell them that she would be on those ships and that as allowed by law, she and the other journalist from the paper should not be interfered as they did their job.

So she claims.

All of their equipment was confiscated, everything except for the cards she managed to hide on her body through the strip search they did on her..

So, do you agree with a free press Geoff? Or do you think the press should not be allowed to record and present what they are seeing?

Sure they should be, but what that have to do with the protesters whacking and stabbing the soldiers?

 

[pjdude1219]

pjdude1219,

But the protesters did not act in the most docile manner possible, by defending themselves they became non-peaceful, by preparing ahead of time with makeshift weapons and knifes they were not even defending them selves but preparing to attack. The other ships provided example of peaceful protest and no-one dead there and the crew gave minimal resistance.

The Israelis totalitarian torture of the Palestinians is a different issue and a red haring from you and others here on the fact these protesters on that ship were no peaceful. We can all agree the Israelis treatment of the Palestinians is unacceptable but that has nothing to do with the fact that many of the Mavi Marmara crew behaved poorly.

But that's just it they didn't behave poorly. they behaved like any one would when dealing with people with a reputation for violence. not to mention they were shot at before the Israelis even touched deck. How ever much your ideology needs them to have been at fault they weren't. lets take you basis for what constitutes bad behavior and put it in another setting to show just how absurd it is. a prison guard who needs to handle an inmate known for being violent with guards is he wrong to go in forcefully? no because he like the protesters on this ship can expect to be attacked he is right in taking proactive steps to prevent that from happening. did it work out for the protesters no but that doesn't mean they acted badly. If they acted the way you wanted them too it would have been impossible for them to defend themselves in anyway.



and the other ships were a lot smaller.

 

[pjdude1219]

There even images of them betting the shit out of, stabbing and throwing soilders overboard, the fact no solider died was a miracle.

No expected

The heavy body armer, probably them shotting their pistols wildly at anything around them to get the thugs to stand back?

your calling the wrong people thugs

Sure looked like they were trying from the videos.

yeah rushing them to the med center really looks like they were trying to kill them

Because there hateful anti-semitic ones were not the ones in the lower decks giving first aid?

there weren't any hateful anti semitic ones.

Mind you if these people had no intent to harm and kill there would have been no soldiers injured needing medical care.

mind you if Israel didn't attack them in flagrent violation of international law there would have been no need for them to defend themselves and no would have died or needed medical attention

Makes sense to me, your surrounded by thugs in the dark hitting and stabbing you, you pull out your pistol and shot wildly in all directions with your pistols, thugs turn around and run, bullets keep flying out until the magazine is unloaded and the solider has some time to cool down.

your level of disdain for ISrael's victims is noted but its the people your defending that are the thugs. how do you explain the gunfire against the ship before the attack comenced?

Why did they need to offer them first aid?

because like most beings that want to survive they defended them selves with some success.

The protesters were armed with whacking sticks and small knifes,

iffy and misleading at beast

maybe possibly a pistol or two among the whole of the crew,

something there is no evidence of yet you keep repeating ad nauseum

takes a lot to kill a man in heavy body armor with that, scare him, piss him off certainly

in other words you think the protestors are stupid.

and considering the video evidence of many of the ones that dead were planning on martyrdom they did all they could to get shot.

you mean lack of a single credible video that shows that?

Considering he close quarters and darkness and all the whacking and stabbing it makes total sense.

only if your intent from the beginging was to kill

Because your confused and discombobulated by people wacking and stabbing you from all around, you keep shooting on the corpse the falls on you, you keep shotting from the ground hitting legs and stomachs

same old eletric. like every other Isael apoligist you always blame the victims they were defending them selves from and brutal assault.



Your being attack person falls on you even after putting bullets in him, he still garbing at you, you put the gun to his head to end the attacking faster.



Of course not.



Does that make the videos unreal, are they CGI?



So she claims.



Sure they should be, but what that have to do with the protesters whacking and stabbing the soldiers?[/QUOTE]
done it clear you like always just eat up what ever the offical Israeli line but your "neutral" not pro Israel even though you wish to rob the palestinians of even more rights and always defend Israel.

 

[ElectricFetus]

But that's just it they didn't behave poorly. they behaved like any one would when dealing with people with a reputation for violence.

Oh so that why the people on the otherships died as well, oh wait they didn't!

not to mention they were shot at before the Israelis even touched deck.

No proof of that.

How ever much your ideology needs them to have been at fault they weren't.

If their behavior was not at fault they would have lived like all the rest of the flotilla.

lets take you basis for what constitutes bad behavior and put it in another setting to show just how absurd it is.

a prison guard who needs to handle an inmate known for being violent with guards is he wrong to go in forcefully?

Good point the Israelis should have gone in heavy armed expected lethal confrontation.

no because he like the protesters on this ship can expect to be attacked he is right in taking proactive steps to prevent that from happening.

that does not make any sense!

If they acted the way you wanted them too it would have been impossible for them to defend themselves in anyway.

and then they would have lived. When the police come crashing in you surrender you don't 'defend your self' or you end up dead and the pigs say what ever they want.

and the other ships were a lot smaller.

So? It takes one man to block a door and the bridge of a ships has maybe 3 at most.

your calling the wrong people thugs

Thugs don't come armed with paintball guns.

yeah rushing them to the med center really looks like they were trying to kill them

Out of the 600+ people on that ship only a few dozen at best had a death wish or were in a blood frenzy, certainly the people that had sense to stay on the lower decks did not have a desire to kill or die.

there weren't any hateful anti semitic ones. mind you if Israel didn't attack them in flagrent violation of international law there would have been no need for them to defend themselves and no would have died or needed medical attention

Unfortunately Israel was allowed to have a legal blockade, so it was not illegal to board the redirect ships attempting to run the blockade. The other ships did not produce violent resistance and no one died so there was the option of no defense that was not taken on this one ship, quite possible due to the type of scum placed on board.

your level of disdain for Israel's victims is noted but its the people your defending that are the thugs. how do you explain the gunfire against the ship before the attack comenced?

There is no proof of viable evidence that the helicopters were firing live ammunition before the boarding.

because like most beings that want to survive they defended them selves with some success.

Actually they wanted to die, protesters are quoted before hand of wanting to become martyrs. If they wanted to live they would have provided no resistance like on the other ships.

iffy and misleading at beast

The videographic evidence is not misleading, there multiple videos of them wracking soldiers with blunt long implements (sticks), there is video of a clear stabbing of a solider.

something there is no evidence of yet you keep repeating ad nauseum

I said possibly. You can deny the Israel evidence of shells of non-Israel origin on the ship, I'll grant you that, but you can't deny the videos of them protesters them selves.

in other words you think the protestors are stupid.

No, I'm saying it physically difficult with the implements we can visually prove they had and the situation they were in to kill a man.

you mean lack of a single credible video that shows that?

How are the videos non-credible? Are the interviews CGI???

only if your intent from the beginging was to kill

Dam straight, your being whacked and stab by multiple assailants and you have a pistol your intent will likely be to kill.

same old eletric. like every other Isael apoligist you always blame the victims they were defending them selves from and brutal assault.

yeah a brutal assault that why no one died on the other ships, I'm just being unbiased. Israel needs to stop torturing the Palestinians, but in this case, on the specific question of the behavior of the protesters I'm calling it as it is: violent suicidal behavior.

done it clear you like always just eat up what ever the offical Israeli line but your "neutral" not pro Israel even though you wish to rob the palestinians of even more rights and always defend Israel.

Israeli line has nothing to do with it, the videos clearly beyond any doubt show the protesters attacking the soldiers. This thread has nothing directly to do with Palestinians and my argument against the protesters has nothing to do with Palestinians, its a red haring to keep going to the poor Palestinian issue and demand total agreement or else you will call me your equivalent of epithets.

 

[S.A.M.]

Harry Seigman in Ha'aretz:

Of course, even the most objectionable Israeli policies do not begin to compare with Hitler’s Germany. But the essential moral issues are the same. How would Jews have reacted to their tormentors had they been consigned to the kind of existence Israel has imposed on Gaza’s population? Would they not have seen human rights activists prepared to risk their lives to call their plight to the world’s attention as heroic, even if they had beaten up commandos trying to prevent their effort? Did Jews admire British commandos who boarded and diverted ships carrying illegal Jewish immigrants to Palestine in the aftermath of World War II, as most Israelis now admire Israel’s naval commandos?

Who would have believed that an Israeli government and its Jewish citizens would seek to demonize and shut down Israeli human rights organizations for their lack of “patriotism,” and dismiss fellow Jews who criticized the assault on the Gaza Flotilla as “Arabs,” pregnant with all the hateful connotations that word has acquired in Israel, not unlike Germans who branded fellow citizens who spoke up for Jews as “Juden”? The German White Rose activists, mostly students from the University of Munich, who dared to condemn the German persecution of the Jews (well before the concentration camp exterminations began) were also considered “traitors” by their fellow Germans, who did not mourn the beheading of these activists by the Gestapo.

So, yes, there is reason for Israelis, and for Jews generally, to think long and hard about the dark Hitler era at this particular time. For the significance of the Gaza Flotilla incident lies not in the questions raised about violations of international law on the high seas, or even about “who assaulted who” first on the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, but in the larger questions raised about our common human condition by Israel’s occupation policies and its devastation of Gaza’s civilian population.

If a people who so recently experienced on its own flesh such unspeakable inhumanities cannot muster the moral imagination to understand the injustice and suffering its territorial ambitions—and even its legitimate security concerns—are inflicting on another people, what hope is there for the rest of us?

The whole article is worth reading: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israel-s-greatest-loss-its-moral-imagination-1.295600

 

[spidergoat]

...Following Israel’s bloody interdiction of the Gaza Flotilla, I called a life-long friend in Israel to inquire about the mood of the country.

It's rather easy to call the shots when you don't have to live in their shoes. The Nazis invented stories about the threat from the Jews. The Israelis don't have to invent anything.

How would Jews have reacted to their tormentors had they been consigned to the kind of existence Israel has imposed on Gaza’s population?

Read about the last several centuries of Jewish history and find out.

 

[pjdude1219]

Oh so that why the people on the otherships died as well, oh wait they didn't!

why has been explained to you. on the other ships Israel acted in a manner far less likely to provoke a fight or flight response.

No proof of that.

yes there is. not as perfectly conclusive as we would like but there is proof.

If their behavior was not at fault they would have lived like all the rest of the flotilla.

because ISrael has never killed a nonviolent protester before

Good point the Israelis should have gone in heavy armed expected lethal confrontation.

No they should have gone in lightly armed not expecting one. Your as bad as geoff. rather than read what is said and understand it you twist it to what you want.

that does not make any sense!

sure it does.

and then they would have lived.

there is no evidence to support that claim just your wishful thinking.

When the police come crashing in you surrender you don't 'defend your self' or you end up dead and the pigs say what ever they want.

when a military comes crashing in that almost routinuely kills unarmed civilians if you want to live you defend your self. but like geoff you believe them opposing Israel's thuggery strips them of any right to defend them selves.

So? It takes one man to block a door and the bridge of a ships has maybe 3 at most.

with less people less chance to provoke the paranoid killer response in them.

Thugs don't come armed with paintball guns.

right they come armed with assualt rifles and smgs like the ISraelis did.

Out of the 600+ people on that ship only a few dozen at best had a death wish or were in a blood frenzy, certainly the people that had sense to stay on the lower decks did not have a desire to kill or die.

there was no one that had a death wish. typical of you in this context to blame the victims.

Unfortunately Israel was allowed to have a legal blockade,

the blockades legality is debateable.

so it was not illegal to board the redirect ships attempting to run the blockade. The other ships did not produce violent resistance and no one died so there was the option of no defense that was not taken on this one ship, quite possible due to the type of scum placed on board.

only with in a certain distance. these ships were attacked at 3 times that distance. the other ships didn't defend them selves because they weren't fucking shot it.

There is no proof of viable evidence that the helicopters were firing live ammunition before the boarding.

yes there is.

Actually they wanted to die, protesters are quoted before hand of wanting to become martyrs.

there is no credible proof of that.

If they wanted to live they would have provided no resistance like on the other ships.

so they should have let the Israelis shoot them?

The videographic evidence is not misleading, there multiple videos of them wracking soldiers with blunt long implements (sticks), there is video of a clear stabbing of a solider.

I have yet to see anyone stabbed in any of the edited videos you and yours have shown. and it is misleading. not a single Israel approved video shows what was happening before the heli raid.

I said possibly.

coming from an honest or neutral souce I buy that from you their just weasal words.

You can deny the Israel evidence of shells of non-Israel origin on the ship, I'll grant you that, but you can't deny the videos of them protesters them selves.

sure I can because there is no context to them. they were when showed against what unedited footage the protesters managed to get out shown to be complete misleading just like the difference between the raw and edited versions of the footage of the 1968 DNC convention protests.

No, I'm saying it physically difficult with the implements we can visually prove they had and the situation they were in to kill a man.

you entire argument hinges on them being fucking morons.

How are the videos non-credible? Are the interviews CGI???

which interviews?

Dam straight, your being whacked and stab by multiple assailants and you have a pistol your intent will likely be to kill.

please quit twisting my statement to suit your own ideology. I'm sorry you can't accept that Israel is a brutal country with a long history of killing peace protesters and that people have the right to defend them selves and subdue such people to protect themselves but they do.

yeah a brutal assault that why no one died on the other ships, I'm just being unbiased. Israel needs to stop torturing the Palestinians, but in this case, on the specific question of the behavior of the protesters I'm calling it as it is: violent suicidal behavior.

No your calling it the fucking Israeli line like you always do. funny the only ship where their was any one dead any attempt to subue the soldiers was the one where their is allegations and some proof that the Israel shot at them before coming aboard. yet you incapable of putting those together.

Israeli line has nothing to do with it, the videos clearly beyond any doubt show the protesters attacking the soldiers.[/QUOTE[ which no ones denying. what this debate about is why. You have eaten up the Israeli line about how their more innocent armed to the teeth with lethal weaponry soldiers with a reputation for killing nonviolent protesters just wanted to have a peaceful stopping of the boat while those evil protesters just decided to try and kill them for no damn reason.

his thread has nothing directly to do with Palestinians and my argument against the protesters has nothing to do with Palestinians, its a red haring to keep going to the poor Palestinian issue and demand total agreement or else you will call me your equivalent of epithets.

it goes to show a pattern. that you accept ISrael claims no matter what. your pro ISraeli their so you just carried your disdain for the palestinians over to those trying to help them.

 

[pjdude1219]

It's rather easy to call the shots when you don't have to live in their shoes. The Nazis invented stories about the threat from the Jews. The Israelis don't have to invent anything.

and yet they do what does that say about them?

 

[ElectricFetus]

why has been explained to you. on the other ships Israel acted in a manner far less likely to provoke a fight or flight response.

On the other ships no one brought out whacking sticks and knifes.

yes there is. not as perfectly conclusive as we would like but there is proof.

Then present it!

because ISrael has never killed a nonviolent protester before

What that have to do with this?

No they should have gone in lightly armed not expecting one. Your as bad as geoff. rather than read what is said and understand it you twist it to what you want.

No I just provided an example of how your logics flawed.

sure it does.

Then explain it.

There is no evidence to support that claim just your wishful thinking. when a military comes crashing in that almost routinuely kills unarmed civilians if you want to live you defend your self.

No evidence aside for the other ships, the military came crashing in on those ships, no one died.

but like geoff you believe them opposing Israel's thuggery strips them of any right to defend them selves.

Sorry we were born in the era of Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi, were peaceful resistances means peaceful resistances.

with less people less chance to provoke the paranoid killer response in them.

Your right, from the videos of the protesters I doubt the other ships had enough people of the right sentiment to form circle jerks chanting death to the Jews or martyrdom to work them selves into a blood frenzy. With over 600 people on board and most of them Muslims "death by cop" mentality was self enforcing positive feedback loop.

right they come armed with assualt rifles and smgs like the ISraelis did.

no on the initial raid they had paint ball guns, that can be seen in the videos.

there was no one that had a death wish. typical of you in this context to blame the victims.

There video interviews of them before the raid saying so!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSAxAj2KIdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq50d9iC1xw

the blockades legality is debateable. only with in a certain distance. these ships were attacked at 3 times that distance. the other ships didn't defend them selves because they weren't fucking shot it.

Sure it debatable and I would like to see a UN court case brought to determine it once and for all, but then again if no legal action makes it over the next few years I'll accept that it was allowed as legal.

yes there is.

Well then show it!

there is no credible proof of that. so they should have let the Israelis shoot them?

See interviews above.

I have yet to see anyone stabbed in any of the edited videos you and yours have shown. and it is misleading.

Then your blind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co
How is it misleading, no that was an vitamin shot he was giving the solider?!?!?

not a single Israel approved video shows what was happening before the heli raid.

So? Are you saying the Israeli faked the videos and interviews? And there are non-Israeli videos of the raids out there!

coming from an honest or neutral souce I buy that from you their just weasal words.
sure I can because there is no context to them. they were when showed against what unedited footage the protesters managed to get out shown to be complete misleading

Oh then show these footage. I've seen one so far and it shows nothing of th top decks just the casualties coming in below and some guys sling shotting helicopters like idiots.

you entire argument hinges on them being fucking morons.

If that way you want to see it, tell me what they would have done if they were smart?

which interviews?

See above.

please quit twisting my statement to suit your own ideology. I'm sorry you can't accept that Israel is a brutal country

It is, but that not being argued here.

with a long history of killing peace protesters

No thats just the truthful history of policing forces in general. Pigs do that end of story.

and that people have the right to defend them selves and subdue such people to protect themselves but they do.

and the right to die.

No your calling it the fucking Israeli line like you always do.

yeah sure what ever either with you 100% or I'm the enemy, oh I forgot to cash my check from the elders of zion.

funny the only ship where their was any one dead any attempt to subue the soldiers was the one where their is allegations and some proof that the Israel shot at them before coming aboard. yet you incapable of putting those together.

oh I would love to put that together if you could show us this proof.

You have eaten up the Israeli line about how their more innocent armed to the teeth with lethal weaponry soldiers with a reputation for killing nonviolent protesters just wanted to have a peaceful stopping of the boat while those evil protesters just decided to try and kill them for no damn reason.

- paint ball guns is not "armed to the teeth"
- if their reputation insured there lethality why was no one else killed on any of the other-ships?
- Certainly the evil protesters on the ship which we could see attacking the soldiers had their reason, probably along their stated goals and chanting of becoming martyrs and fighting Jews.

it goes to show a pattern. that you accept Israel claims no matter what.

I'm not the one on trial here, ad homiems mean nothing, you can't kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

your pro Israeli their so you just carried your disdain for the palestinians over to those trying to help them.

Oh I hate Palestinians, human rodents, no arguing against that, but that besides the point, there videographic evidence of the protesters attacking the soldiers of interviews showing their suicidal mind set, it not a matter of what I believe the evidence was there, if they were peaceful protesters they would have chained them selves in front of all the entries to the bridge and engineering, sit their and chant something peaceful, shit they probably would have delayed the Israel from taking control far longer that way what with 600+ of them they could have made human walls dozens of people thick, but that the differences between peaceful protesters and those with a deep sited desire for revenge against Jews for shaming them and their religion.

and yet they do what does that say about them?

So Palestinian terrorism is a fantasy orchestrated by the Israelis? All the videos, witnesses and evidence nothing but the super-advance manipulations of the elder of zion in there orbital space fortress?

 

[S.A.M.]

Simon Says:

Netanyahu: Naval blockade on Gaza will not be lifted

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-blockade-on-gaza-will-not-be-lifted-1.295904

Abbas to Obama: I'm against lifting the Gaza naval blockade

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...inst-lifting-the-gaza-naval-blockade-1.295771

Israel's Gaza blockade breaks law, says International Red Cross

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...eaks-law-says-international-red-cros-1.296042

Is it just me, or has Netanyahu started to look like Hannibal Lecter? What is his diet made up of?

 

[GeoffP]

I think that was self defense* but

No. No "but anyway". The issue of the Bedouins and the Negev is a different issue. Or should I now say that the commando raid on the freighter was a very minor issue compared to the attacks on Israel from 1948 onward? Guilt is guilt, culpability is culpability. Your use of "but anyway" means that you don't believe the story you're sowing.

The "crime" of the Bedouins was to have occupied the Sinai and Negev for more than 5000 years before Israel existed and decided to take their lands for Jewish settlers without any compensation. Do you defend that Israeli action too?

Nope. But you do defend this action of the protestors.

their is no applicable answer to your query. I'm not trolling though the same can't be said for you.. it is not trolling to point out the falsehoods and lies in your posts. though in someone showing the ego problems you do its not hard to see how you would view it as such.

And more ad hominem. Sorry. Out of my hands now.

How many people were on that ship?

And yet, not a single Israeli soldier died. But 9 people were shot numerous times, most of them in the back of the head or in the back.

Have you read a single word writtedn.

Now, lets look at his a bit closely, shall we? Apparently this ship was full of armed and angry thugs with iron sticks.

Minimization again.

Yet they didn't kill a single soldier. There are even images of them treating the Israelis who had been wounded. I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.. Why were no Israelis killed? There was ample opportunity to kill them as they stormed those ships. Why are they all alive? It's not out of skill. They were effectively disarmed when they stormed the ships. So why didn't the 'armed mob' kill them?

Why didn't the Israelis - who were clearly out for blood, as any number of posts have asserted thus far - simply spray into the crowd? Why didn't they fire from the helicopters? Why didn't they just rocket the flotilla boats?

Again. Why didn't the activists.. you know.. 'the hateful anti-semitic ones' on that boat, kill a single Israeli soldier? Why did they give them first aid?

Who gave them first aid? The very ones who attacked them? How do you know? Etc.

And lets say that was the first shot and they shoot someone in the back of the head at close range. Why then go on to keep shooting them? It does not make sense to me. So can you explain it to me please?

Who knows? Being mobbed? Maybe a crowd was shoving and pushed the corpse right onto the soldier? No one knows at this point; but you continually leap the queue and use the end to justify the beginning. It's the same old story.

Either way I'm looking at it, it does not make sense to me.

Interesting: which two ways ("Either way", above) are you looking at it?

Tell me Geoff, do you value the free press? Or do you support censorship?

Well, you've seen mounds of evidence right in line with what I've been writing on the forum, and promptly ignored it. The same is true of pj, Sam, Billy and a few others. This pattern extends from this thread and radiates through the entire forum. So how valuable does a free press and journalism seem right now?

Do you think Israel should release the videos shot by the journalists on those ships?

Sure. Now you can answer some of my own questions: since you don't value anything seen so far - unless it supports your cause, or unless you can twist it to your own ends - what difference would it make? If it shows what you don't want it to, will you ignore it again? Do you think that people should make conclusions in the face of evidence or in accord with it?

 

[GeoffP]

String: why not close this thread, also? There's no point.

Pj's recourse is "well there is evidence of my viewpoint". When asked: ok, where is it? he promptly i) shuts up and goes away, or ii) goes on personal attacks. The argument on that front seems to have run its course. Assertion after unsupported assertion.

Bells' contention is that any attempt to hit a balanced statement about the incident is inherently bigoted; she just ignores point after point. Case in point: I ask why only one boat had a problem (for which I've cited the likes of al Jazeera in the past), and she blows right by it. Should I stoop to that level?

Sam - well, Sam is Sam.

So what's the point, here? Who is going to be educated of anything?

Just close the thread.

Geoff

 

[Billy T]

... Nope. But you do defend this action of the protestors. ...

I said I "thought" their action was self defense; They certainly knew how Israel has and is treating the Bedouins. - I.e. subjecting them to a slow but successful process of extermination. (Only 10 to 15 % of a once proud people now survive as prisoners in the concentration camps on less than 1% of the Negev Desert.)

Thus the protesters could not trust the Israelis to be peaceful towards them, especially as Israel first blocked all cell phone communication from the ship, even before boarding it at 4:30AM, as fully armed commandos. (And in fact killed nine of them, some with shots at close range to the back of the head.)

Clearly the protesters had a right to be fearful as Israel started out hiding what would soon happen from the world (and still has not released the camera films, video tapes, video CDs confiscated from the protesters. It must be taking longer to edit out the parts unfavorable to Israel than I had expected, based on the fact that they edited out most of the pre-boarding flash-band flashes in less than a day that were in the videos that the commandos took.

 

[GeoffP]

I said I "thought"their action was self defense, They certainly knew how Israel has and is treating the Bedouins. - I.e. in a slow but successful process of exterminating them. Thus they could not trust the Israelis to be peaceful towards them, especially as Israel first blocked all cell phone communication from the ship, even before boarding it, as fully armed commandos.

Well, five other ships had no such problem.

the fact that they edited out most of the pre-boarding flash-band flashes in less than a day that were in the videos that the commandos took.

I am nothing if not fair: okay, can you describe for me using the video evidence how this happened? Or did you just mean prior to the rappelling? As usual, I am happy to entertain all perspectives.

Now: given that we agree on some of what happened, can we also agree that the mobbing of the rappellers was also partially motivated by the anti-Semitic hate rally the day prior?

 

[Billy T]

Well, five other ships had no such problem.

One ship had only16 people on board and they realistically understood they had no chance to resist. The main ship had ~600 people on it and a dozen or so hoped they could keep the Israelis off.

... Now: given that we agree on some of what happened, can we also agree that the mobbing of the rappellers was also partially motivated by the anti-Semitic hate rally the day prior?

Humans are a complex mix of motivations. I suspect some of the more active protesters were at least partially motivated by anti-semitic factors. Perhaps, as has been suggested by "Israel can do no wrong," people some of them more active protesters were known (or assumed) by Israel to be Jhadists and would have gone to prison and torture if the were captured. It is hard to know what motivates people.

I have serious doubts there was an "anti-semitic rally" as many Jews were on board and probably something like a third of all (~200 ) were semitic people. If you have some link showing this, that clearly has parts of the ship in the background, I will be glad to adjust my POV as to what is truth on this.

I would not have had the courage now to be on board that ship, but when I was younger I did get spit upon many times and once beaten by an old lady's cane. (She was weak and needed it, so I caught every blow with a hand.) This because I held the unpopular POV (and acted on it) that blacks should be allowed to sit down in restaurants, not just buy food in carry out bags and eat on the curb. Once a man briefly pulled aside his coat to show me the pistol stuck in his belt, but then quickly covered it back up. That did, as he intended, scare me but next Sunday I was back on the picket lines etc.

PS I was much more than just a picket line worker. I was effectively the tactical commander of 200 to 300 people. My official title was "transportation coordinator" but I told everyone which car to get in at the assemble point and where to go, and what time to the minute it was to be parked a block away from its target restaurant. - We had to hit them all within a few minutes of my schedule as the Restaurant Association, RA, had developed a counter measure telephone alert system that would get the doors of others not yet hit locked. One or two WBs (white bodies) would go in and order food a few minutes before T=0 when two or three BBs would rapidly enter and sit down with them. By T = 2, the door would be locked and the picket line would be starting to set up. The car would go back to the assembly area and load up some more BBs for the picket line at least once, usually twice. It was summer and they had nothing else to do so we always had more high school BBs than we could fire at the restaurants. I put the best dressed ones in the first car loads.

It was at least as hard to achieve good coordination as the Normandy Invasion as most of my troops did not have watches and the BBs all ran on CPT, not EST. At least half of the cars belonged to rich girls from the all girl Gaucher College, just north of Baltimore. By some strange chance, I was always assigned to the car of one of the prettiest girls.

By the end of that summer, we had caused so much economic pain to restaurants that the RA reversed its position and joined us in asking the Maryland Legislature to make race discrimination illegal, and I could go back to my graduate studies at JHU.

I now lack some of the wreckless courage of my youth, but will always post about Israel's "Final Solution" to the "Bedouin Problem," when it is somewhat on thread.

More on that summer: We, inside were evicted by the police by T= 15 (or would go to jail, but we had 5 cases in the courts already and could not afford legal reps for more so always left when told by the police to do so.) and walked in the picket line for more than an hour - until the Sunday dinner hour was over. I got to know and respect one intelligent BB quite well on the picket lines. I complained to him that it was hypocritical for me not to be on the all black executive committee, deciding which restaurants to hit, etc. considering how much effort I was doing. He responded with the most painful reply (because it was so true, so unjust) I have ever heard:
He stuck out his arm and asked: " What color is my skin?" - "Black" I replied. Then he said: "Someday, you will walk away from all this, I can't." It still hurts / bring tears / just to type this - I knew at the time it was true. In part for him, I will not shut up about the Bedouins who can not even speak for themselves from their concentration camp cities. As usual, Israel controls the flow of adverse information when it can.