Zionist piracy

[GeoffP]

One ship had only16 people on board and they realistically understood they had no chance to resist. The main ship had ~600 people on it and a dozen or so hoped they could keep the Israelis off.

This is sort of reaching; but it does lay some of the blame on the protestors.

Humans are a complex mix of motivations. I suspect some of the more active protesters were at least partially motivated by anti-semitic factors. Perhaps, as has been suggested by "Israel can do no wrong," people some of them more active protesters were known (or assumed) by Israel to be Jhadists and would have gone to prison and torture if the were captured. It is hard to know what motivates people.

I have serious doubts there was an "anti-semitic rally" as many Jews were on board and probably something like a third of all (~200 ) were semitic people. If you have some link showing this, that clearly has parts of the ship in the background, I will be glad to adjust my POV as to what is truth on this.

Al Jazeera reported it some time back. The link is back in the thread somewhere, but I'm not going to dig it up. I don't suggest everyone participated, but it looked like there were enough people at the rally.

 

[spidergoat]

At least half of the cars belonged to rich girls from the all girl Gaucher College, just north of Baltimore. By some strange chance, I was always assigned to the car of one of the prettiest girls.

Cool, I took some art classes at Goucher College. I bet the ladies didn't bring lengths of pipe to beat back the cops, did they?

 

[ElectricFetus]

One ship had only16 people on board and they realistically understood they had no chance to resist. The main ship had ~600 people on it and a dozen or so hoped they could keep the Israelis off.

They could have held off the Israelis longer by chaining them selves to the entries to the bridge and engineering. 600 had not chances of stopping the boarding any more then 6 by the technique they were using, there technique though was optimal for martyrdom.

I have serious doubts there was an "anti-semitic rally" as many Jews were on board and probably something like a third of all (~200 ) were semitic people.

don't nit-pick on definitions of phrases you know what he meant and here video proof of such rallies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

I like your sob story though.

 

[Billy T]

... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk
I like your sob story though.

Thanks for the link. It is not with a language I can understand but has subtitles created by PALWATCH, which support your position (but I don't know if they accurately reflect the spoken words) There is only one lady briefly in a scene with any sea in the back ground (And the Israeli Palwatch announcer at the start). To try to get some idea about that video, I went to Palwatch.com and read the "About US" section, the first part of which is:
" Founded in 1996, Palestinian Media Watch is an Israeli NGO that studies Palestinian society from a broad range of perspectives by monitoring and analyzing the Palestinian Authority through its media and schoolbooks. PMW’s major focus is on the messages that the Palestinian leaders, from the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas, send to the population through the broad range of institutions and infrastructures they control. "

As I know from watching a BBC documentary on the Bedouins in the Negev concentration camp cities which showed the highly armored Israeli bulldozers destroying some primitive mud and stick Bedouin huts/homes (tin roofs also, I believe, but they were already just crushed scrap metal in the video) I know Israel puts as good a spin on information as they can and suppresses much more when it can, if it is not favorable to Israel, I tend to suspect this video was staged.**
It certainly is not an Al Jazreea broadcast as GEOFF said it was:

... Al Jazeera reported it some time back. The link is back in the thread somewhere, but I'm not going to dig it up. I don't suggest everyone participated, but it looked like there were enough people at the rally.

For an example of Israeli "spin" on why the Bedouin are confined on less that 1% of the Negev, it is stated to be for two reasons: (1) So that the children can get an education & (2) to protect the fragile Negev environment. That is why the concentration camp city guards are called the "Green Forces" - Green as in Green Environment. On the day the BBC was filming about 20 or 25 school children (of many different ages) did go and wait for the school bus to come for about an hour, then most went back home. Perhaps seven of the older ones decided to walk to the school, about 5km away but the BBC crew did not go with them.

The real reason is of course Israel wants, perhaps needs, their lands for new Jewish settlers, but Israel is good at spin and false information diversions. The BBC documentary was probably an under cover job. - Not one Israeli was in it, except for the operator of the bulldozer tank knocking down homes. Some kids were throwing stones at that armored bulldozer so he did not get out, if he did see the camera, and cease it. You can not find one photo of an Israeli crop dusters spraying herbicide on the crops some Bedouins have planted (A few Bedouins do slip out and return to the site of their old villages on moonless nights but they are force to return for lack of food and water.) Unlike the Nazi concentration camps, there is no wall around these camps but the Israeli word for them best translates in to English as "enclosure." The Green Forces are too few in number to keep every one confined in the enclosure - the desert does that.

If you search, you can however find photos the brown withered fields of plants crops the herbicide makes.*** About 7 or 8 years ago Israel plowed under these "illegal crops" but spraying is more economical, so that is no longer done. There was three or so years ago when I searched and found these photos, a no doubt "left wing" organization called something like the "Israeli- Bedouin Friendship Organization" - They had a lot of this material and / or links to it. Knowing how Israel operates, I would be surprised if they still exist - probably did not pay their taxes etc. and had their cameras, etc. ceased for back payments.

PS - Glad you liked my "sob story." I only told a little my history to show that I have long spoken out (and back then acted) to help those abused by the powerful. I went back later, by edit, and added some more details at end of post 1441.
-------------
** I watched it six times mainly to see if I could detect any subtitle synchronized posture sway in the seated participants (due it really being filmed on a ship and not in a studio). I could not see any, but I am not sure I would be able to tell without sophisticated computer processing of the images. later by edit: I hope someone will do this. To encourage that I note that the brief scene, which does show the sea/air horizon, does last just long enough to complete one roll of the ship. - Thus the frequency of the "posture sway" is accurately known for constructing image displacement correlation filters.

***This is exactly the same policy and for the same reason that the Palestinians of Gaza may import finished clothes or frozen fish, but not cloth, thread, and sewing needles or fishing rods etc. I.e. Israel wants its captives to have no means of self support - to be 100% dependent upon Israel to even live.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Thanks for the link. It is not with a language I can understand but has subtitles created by PALWATCH, which support your position (but I don't know if they accurately reflect the spoken words) There is only one lady briefly in a scene with any sea in the back ground (And the Israeli Palwatch announcer at the start). To try to get some idea about that video, I went to Palwatch.com and read the "About US" section, the first part of which is:
" Founded in 1996, Palestinian Media Watch is an Israeli NGO that studies Palestinian society from a broad range of perspectives by monitoring and analyzing the Palestinian Authority through its media and schoolbooks. PMW’s major focus is on the messages that the Palestinian leaders, from the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas, send to the population through the broad range of institutions and infrastructures they control. "

And that disproves the video? Do you know what an Ad Hominem is?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Israelis Response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ip9nKQRnHs

 

[S.A.M.]

Thanks for the link. It is not with a language I can understand but has subtitles created by PALWATCH,

See also "Honest Reporting", Campus Watch, Memri, and hasbaraniks like Walid Shoebet etc. The IDF is also known [as part of its psy-ops] to insert articles into Arab newspapers and then represent them as Arab opinion. We've already seen in the course of the flotilla raid how they tamper with images and manufacture videos. My default position is that unless its from a human rights group anything from Israel is automatically suspect as hasbara. A country that offers fellowships in propaganda cannot be expected to be honest in its media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara_Fellowships

***This is exactly the same policy and for the same reason that the Palestinians of Gaza may import finished clothes or frozen fish, but not cloth, thread, and sewing needles or fishing rods etc. I.e. Israel wants its captives to have no means of self support - to be 100% dependent upon Israel to even live.

This is standard colonist behaviour, ie destruction of local self sufficiency. You may be interested in examining why Gandhi is depicted with the spinning wheel ie charkha and why khadi or handwoven cotton was such an important part of the Indian freedom movement. Its the kind of story that would appeal to those who favour the underdog

 

[GeoffP]

They could have held off the Israelis longer by chaining them selves to the entries to the bridge and engineering. 600 had not chances of stopping the boarding any more then 6 by the technique they were using, there technique though was optimal for martyrdom.

Well put.

It certainly is not an Al Jazreea broadcast as GEOFF said it was:

It's cited as being from al Jazeera - it's possible that it's in error, although I rather doubt it. I sympathize with your plight, but it's not possible to conclude at this time that it wasn't an Al Jazeera broadcast. I welcome further discussion on this issue, of course.

 

[GeoffP]

Israelis Response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ip9nKQRnHs

Well put again. I think that wraps up some of the supposition from Billy and Sam.

See also "Honest Reporting", Campus Watch, Memri, and hasbaraniks like Walid Shoebet etc. The IDF is also known [as part of its psy-ops] to insert articles into Arab newspapers and then represent them as Arab opinion. We've already seen in the course of the flotilla raid how they tamper with images and manufacture videos.

Er...evidence?

 

[ElectricFetus]

See also "Honest Reporting", Campus Watch, Memri, and hasbaraniks like Walid Shoebet etc. The IDF is also known [as part of its psy-ops] to insert articles into Arab newspapers and then represent them as Arab opinion. We've already seen in the course of the flotilla raid how they tamper with images and manufacture videos. My default position is that unless its from a human rights group anything from Israel is automatically suspect as hasbara. A country that offers fellowships in propaganda cannot be expected to be honest in its media.

The videos of the beating and stabbing and of the protesters on the ship can't simply be dismissed as Israeli propaganda, you have to prove that these videos are false.

 

[S.A.M.]

Er...evidence?

Already there all over the thread. The "weapons" found on the flotilla which were posted to Flickr in 2006 before the date miraculously changed to 2010, the IDF confession that videos were edited alongwith passenger assertions that stuff they had either not said or said some other time on some other occasion was presented as conversation from the flotilla.

The videos of the beating and stabbing and of the protesters on the ship can't simply be dismissed as Israeli propaganda, you have to prove that these videos are false.

No I don't have to prove anything. If 600 violent activists didn't kill a single Israeli, while Israelis killed 9 [or more since 6 bodies are still missing], then its obvious who the killers are and who is defending themselves. How would you disarm an armed terrorist who was executing people around you?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Already there all over the thread. The "weapons" found on the flotilla which were posted to Flickr in 2006 before the date miraculously changed to 2010, the IDF confession that videos were edited alongwith passenger assertions that stuff they had either not said or said some other time on some other occasion was presented as conversation from the flotilla.

That not the videos I'm talking about.

 

[S.A.M.]

All the videos passed through Israeli hands. They cut off cell phone and video transmission. Thats proof enough of media tampering

If they had nothing to hide they should have kept the live stream going.

 

[GeoffP]

Already there all over the thread. The "weapons" found on the flotilla which were posted to Flickr in 2006 before the date miraculously changed to 2010,

Actually, your evidence for this was some highly-interpreted inflammatory reaction on a third-party site. You also mentioned "tampered". So, no, your point doesn't pass. Have you got anything else?

No I don't have to prove anything. If 600 violent activists didn't kill a single Israeli, while Israelis killed 9 [or more since 6 bodies are still missing], then its obvious who the killers are and who is defending themselves.

I forget which logical fallacy this is. EF? Any idea? I'm sorry; I'm tired and I can't be bothered to go look it up right now. But the point is this: it doesn't so follow. It's entirely possible to try to kill someone, and then have your ass kicked. I don't know that that's the actual case in this example - people may well require prosecution and punishment, and it seems likely to me - but your first sentence sums up how you've been working on this issue.

How would you disarm an armed terrorist who was executing people around you?

I probably wouldn't attack him before he'd done anything.

I wonder how long it will go on, the constant avoidance by the 'other camp'. I mean: just what would one have to do to generate an admission that the event wasn't solely the fault of Israel? I guess this would just be speculation.

 

[GeoffP]

All the videos passed through Israeli hands. They cut off cell phone and video transmission. Thats proof enough of media tampering

False.

If they had nothing to hide they should have kept the live stream going.

Possibly.

 

[GeoffP]

Already there all over the thread. The "weapons" found on the flotilla which were posted to Flickr in 2006 before the date miraculously changed to 2010

Augh - I also forgot: that point is irrelevant. We can see the weapons on all the vids.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[ElectricFetus]

No I don't have to prove anything. If 600 violent activists didn't kill a single Israeli, while Israelis killed 9 [or more since 6 bodies are still missing], then its obvious who the killers are and who is defending themselves.

So if I go up to a cop and hit him with a metal pipe and he shots me dead, its his fault? Let say I'm attemting to enter a building I'm not athorized to enter and a guards try to remove me, so I start stabbing them, they shot me dead, and its there fault? There a phrase for this, its called "suicide by cop".

How would you disarm an armed terrorist who was executing people around you?

Well if I was a so called peaceful protester in this flotilla situation, I wouldn't.

 

[S.A.M.]

Attacking civilians in international waters is generally considered illegal so comparisons should be to muggers not cops. Only when it comes to Israel do we see the moral laxity that is evident in pro-Israelis under all circumstances. Frankly under such conditions where people were being shot in the head by armed troops, it would have been natural to protect oneself by killing them. That the activists were able to look beyond their executed co-passengers and not only defend those bawling weeping "commandos" from getting a well deserved thrashing, but also provide them with first aid [a circumstance that was rewarded by the Israelis with beating and torture of the activists later on] makes them far better people than I would have been in the same circumstance.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/photos-israel-does-not-want-you-to-see/

 

[ElectricFetus]

Attacking civilians in international waters is generally considered illegal.

Certainly the legality of its is debatable, but it was a blockade.

Only when it comes to Israel do we see the moral laxity that is evident in pro-Israelis under all circumstances. Frankly under such conditions where people were being shot in the head by armed troops, it would have been natural to protect oneself by killing them.

They were being shot because they were attacking the soldiers, if they had not attacked they would not have been shot. Example A: the 5 other ships!

but also provide them with first aid [a circumstance that was rewarded by the Israelis with beating and torture of the activists later on] makes them far better people than I would have been in the same circumstance.

There were many types of people on that ship, it clear those on the lower decks did not have a death wish.

 

[S.A.M.]

They were being shot because they were attacking the soldiers, if they had not attacked they would not have been shot. Example A: the 5 other ships!

The other five ships were too small to board from helicopters. Why don't people think of the logistics? Of the 700 activists almost all were on the Mavi Marmara. How could the other passengers attack when they were not boarded at dawn?

If I were in their position, I wouldn't have taken the guns and emptied the magazines or thrown them overboard. I would have shot out their kneecaps because thats the only accountability they would ever face for killing innocent people for no reason.