Zionist piracy

[S.A.M.]

I thought of this as due to fact he favored self sufficiency in a simple life, but until your post, I never connected this to what I now understand is the nearly universal policy of a powerful oppressor in frustrating the abused captives* to be completely dependent upon them.

That was what the whole "Swadeshi" [of my own country] and Swarajya [self rule] movement of Gandhi was about. Cotton from cotton farms in India was bought at low rates by the British monopoly and farmers were forced to grow cotton crops instead of food as a condition of perpetual debts based on complex interest systems which they could not comprehend [under the British Raj, literacy in the country dropped to less than 12%, which was of course all the collaborating "upper class"]. This cotton was then sent to Manchester where it was made into cloth and then resold in the Indian market at exorbitant rates. Whatever food was grown was diverted to the army since the British army "marches on its stomach" so that even after producing enough, Indians were chronically undernourished. Like the Gaza flotilla, there were demonstrations by activists e.g. at Jalianwala Bagh in Amritsar, where the British waited until all the activists were inside, before sealing them in and shooting indiscriminately. Most people died in the stampede to save themselves from the bullets. This is similar to what happened in Gaza 2009, when Gazans were locked into Gaza and except for the few who had foreign passports, not permitted to leave, following which missiles were directed to cadets at their graduation ceremony and schoolchildren on their way to school [the air attacks were timed for precisely the hour when children walk to school - there was six months of planning behind this atrocity]

Those of us with a history of colonialism can see through the "defensive" measures of Israel as clearly as if it had happened to us. Since it did.

 

[GeoffP]

Well, also keep in mind that Indian armies also confiscated/diverted food. It's what armies do, and this is nearly the bloody feudal period we're talking about here.

 

[S.A.M.]

Though the British created long famines in India and Ireland, somehow there was never a corresponding one in Britain

 

[Billy T]

... Your logic leads to the simple philosophy that one is not accountable for this own actions. ...

You will need to explain that to me: I can not see how my acknowledging that many movements for social justice, human rights etc. will be exploited by anarchist and other trouble makers is me stating that one is not responsible for their own actions.*

The most recent example of this murderous exploitation, prior to the killing of these nine, is the anarchists burning of a building in Greece where three innocent people were killed.

* Are you stating that social movements should be abolished because they can be exploited? That the leaders of social movement need to be held accountable for the deaths infiltrators cause? That seems to be YOUR logic in your post. If not, I again ask you to explain how you drew your conclusion about my logic.

BTW, I will add a historical footnote to my post 1478, explaining why few now living have heard of Cambridge, MD, but know of Baltimore:

Cambridge is on the east side of the Chesapeake Bay and by rail at least 150 miles farther from Ohio. When there were rail roads to the west, (Ohio etc.) they left from the closer Baltimore. Two were the B&O (Baltimore & Ohio) and the C&O (Chesapeake & Ohio). Being quite inland, the port of Baltimore prospered, and basically killed the earlier port of Philadelphia which is ~200 miles more distant from Cincinnati on Ohio's southern rivers (the Ohio and the Mississippi, which made more economical water transport to many states possible) as well as taking Cambridge totally out of the commerce picture.

History and Economics need to be understood together.

 

[S.A.M.]

You will need to explain that to me.

I can not see how my acknowledging that many movements for social justice, human rights etc. will be exploited by anarchist and other trouble makers is me stating that one is not responsible for their own actions. The most recent example, prior to the killing of these nine, is the anarchists burning of a building in Greece where three innocent people were killed.

I don't think you can hold the activists responsible for Israeli policy. The Israelis are not required to kill those who bring humanitarian aid to Gaza. If in your example, the blacks had been shot for demonstrating in Race Street, it would still be an example of discrimination against blacks, not an apology for provocation of whites.

To go back to Gandhi, during the Salt March, the British were "provoked" by the Satyagrahis and attacked them with lathi charges, sometimes leading to fatal damage because of head injuries. Do you think the American journalists wrote about how provoked the British were in defending the Salt Tax? Would you say the satyagrahis were anarchists?

 

[GeoffP]

Though the British created long famines in India and Ireland, somehow there was never a corresponding one in Britain

When there was war in Britain, there certainly were.

 

[pjdude1219]

Though the British created long famines in India and Ireland, somehow there was never a corresponding one in Britain

of course not they ate Irish babies.(note not trolling. its an allusion to a modest proposal by swift)

 

[ElectricFetus]

You will need to explain that to me: I can not see how my acknowledging that many movements for social justice, human rights etc. will be exploited by anarchist and other trouble makers is me stating that one is not responsible for their own actions.*

Simple, that argument has nothing to do with the flotilla raid, so it irrelevant.

The most recent example of this murderous exploitation, prior to the killing of these nine, is the anarchists burning of a building in Greece where three innocent people were killed.

which has nothing to do with this flottila raid, and nothing to do with this argument or even this thread.

* Are you stating that social movements should be abolished because they can be exploited? That the leaders of social movement need to be held accountable for the deaths infiltrators cause?

I'm stating nothing of the sort. These red harrings are getting annoying.

That seems to be YOUR logic in your post. If not, I again ask you to explain how you drew your conclusion about my logic.

you said:

However, the fundamental reason nine are dead, is Israel’s policy of making the Palestinians totally dependent upon Israel, just to live.

This issue of Palestinian dependence has nothing to do with a butch of Turks on a ship deciding to attack commandos that have come to take over their ship, it does not place the blame of who the commandos killed in self-defense on the commandos.

 

[ElectricFetus]

To go back to Gandhi

You would, then of course not do anything what so ever for his principles of non-violence.

 

[pjdude1219]

Simple, that argument has nothing to do with the flotilla raid, so it irrelevant.




which has nothing to do with this flottila raid, and nothing to do with this argument or even this thread.



I'm stating nothing of the sort. These red harrings are getting annoying.



you said:



This issue of Palestinian dependence has nothing to do with a butch of Turks on a ship deciding to attack commandos that have come to take over their ship, it does not place the blame of who the commandos killed in self-defense on the commandos.

sorry but no matter how much you ignore it or wish it were irrelevant. Israel's record of brutality and history of attacking peaceful protesters and how that effects how one would interact with them matters.

 

[Billy T]

Are you sober? Normally you are more logical and responsive to posts. Here is concise review of our exchange:

Billy T {post1477}… I now understand is the nearly universal policy of a powerful oppressor in frustrating their abused captives* to be completely dependent upon them. Saddam did this too - he had warehouses of food that he gave out. - The only way many could eat.

Billy T {post1478}… I tell this story to acknowledge that, IMHO, it is highly likely that there were similar trouble makers on the ship, hoping for someone to be killed by the Israelis. However, the fundamental reason nine are dead, is Israel’s policy (now recognized by me to be common to all oppressors – See my just made post 1477) of making the Palestinians totally dependent upon Israel, just to live. (and Bedouins, I now add.)

ElectricFetus {post1479}... Your logic leads to the simple philosophy that one is not accountable for this own actions.

Billy T {post1484}… You will need to explain that to me: I cannot see how my acknowledging that many movements for social justice, human rights etc. will be exploited by anarchist and other trouble makers is me stating that one is not responsible for their own actions.

ElectricFetus {post1488}...Simple, that argument has nothing to do with the flotilla raid, so it irrelevant.

Billy T, Now {this post} That pure duck and weave – not an explanation of your post 1479 “logic”

I am still waiting for you to EXPLAIN your post 1479 logic

 

[ElectricFetus]

sorry but no matter how much you ignore it or wish it were irrelevant. Israel's record of brutality and history of attacking peaceful protesters and how that effects how one would interact with them matters.

No it doesn't, the protesters had a choice in how they resisted, no matter the aggressor. Gandhi got by advocating that one die rather then lay a finger on their enemy, that one resist without violence of any kind, even is so called self defense such as attacking soldiers before they have even hit the deck.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I am still waiting for you to EXPLAIN your post 1479 logic

I already did. Your saying the protesters aren't accountable for their death, that the Israelis are, there for you saying the protesters aren't accountable for their actions.

 

[Billy T]

... Your saying the protesters aren't accountable for their death, that the Israelis are, there for you saying the protesters aren't accountable for their actions.

No, I am not and did not say that. I did not say the commandos were to blame for the deaths. I did not, nor does my “logic” excuse the protestors from taking responsibility for their actions. I did not even speak much about this particular flotilla incident.

I said that in most large social justice movements (700 people qualifies as "large") there are likely to be a few infiltrating anarchist and others malicious people who hope someone will get killed. I told that I saw that in Cambridge Md one Saturday but only years later understood it. After SAM’s post I realized the almost always oppressors try to keep their victims 100% dependent upon them, just to stay alive. I noted Saddam and his distribution of food, the British control of salt etc. in India, the military in Burma limiting lives and peaceful protests, the anarchist in Greece who killed three with their fires, etc.

I illustrated this general principle of oppressors in Israel’s case with fact frozen fish can be imported but not the tools needed to catch fish and by fact cloth, thread, and sewing needles cannot be imported but a Paris gown, or more simple clothes, can be. I.e. the general principle of all powerful oppressors is to keep their victim 100% dependent upon on them as Israel does with the Bedouins who are now confined to concentration camp cities with Israeli crop duster planes spraying herbicides on crops they slip out and try to “illegally” grow.

I said that this principle was the “fundamental cause” of the nine deaths on the main ship of the flotilla, not the commandos, who were just solders caring out their orders, not the protesters trying to get sufficient PR to force a change in Israel’s oppressive policy (They seems to have had a partial success – A high Israeli official has called for a review and specifically said thread and sewing needles should be allowed in.)

SUMMARY: It is the unjust policy that makes the mass protest (like the US civil rights movement) that then the evil anarchist and malicious intent people (like H Rap Brown) can exploit for their hideous ends.

If it were not for the injustices, there would not be masses of humans protesting for social justice and thus no mass movements for the infiltrators to exploit. That is why I called the unjust policy the “fundamental cause” of the nine dying. Once a government makes injustice their policy, people will die. In Burma, in Iraq, in Israel, in the US of racial discrimination, in Cuba, in Hungry during the USSR invasion, in Egypt today, In South Africa of apartheid, etc. throughout history. – Try to understand the bigger cause and effects picture that made these nine and many other deaths.

My post is typically too long - I could have just said: "Without justice, there is no peace." but wanted to be sure you understood my point.
Understood what was the "fundamental cause" of these and many other deaths. That understanding is why I called back in 2005 for Israel to drop its "High Kill Ratio" policy and adopt a defensive one which could protect ALL Israelis. - Did not need for a few Israelis to die annual as justification for the high kill ratio policy.

 

[ElectricFetus]

No, I am not and did not say that. I did not say the commandos were to blame for the deaths. I did not, nor does my “logic” excuse the protestors from taking responsibility for their actions. I did not even speak much about this particular flotilla incident.

Well then we aren't in disagreement.

In my opinion the fundamental cause is humans, once we rid the world of that things will be so much better.

But I don't try to blame on fundamentals because riding the world of humans is an endeavor no popular at this time, in the present and at that moment and place the cause was the protesters, nothing more.

 

[iceaura]

This issue of Palestinian dependence has nothing to do with a butch of Turks on a ship deciding to attack commandos that have come to take over their ship, it does not place the blame of who the commandos killed in self-defense on the commandos.

No one killed by commandos making an armed assault on a civilian ship in international waters, during the assault, is killed in "self defense".

The people on the target ship are defending, the commandos are attacking. Surely this is not a subtle or difficult matter?

1. Somali pirates are not a state.
2. Somali pirates are not allow to make a blockade
3. Somali pirates would not try diplomacy first.
4. Somali pirates would not come in armed with primarily less-then lethal weapons.

Somalis have governments. They have as much right to make a blockade as anyone else - and far better reason than Israel. They have already tried diplomacy. The Israeli commandos were much more lethally armed than the average Somali "coast guard" sailor (as they would name themselves, already have in fact). And so forth.

You seem to think Israel has some kind of special status, the authority to name and label its own policies and operations in any way it chooses, is not accountable for the behavior of its soldiers or the consequences of its actions.

 

[ElectricFetus]

No one killed by commandos making an armed assault on a civilian ship in international waters, during the assault, is killed in "self defense".

The people on the target ship are defending, the commandos are attacking. Surely this is not a subtle or difficult matter?

They were attempting to run a blockade, they were conducting an illegal activity, the commandos had the right to take over the ship. If a criminal attacks the police its the criminals fault.

Somalis have governments. They have as much right to make a blockade as anyone else - and far better reason than Israel. They have already tried diplomacy.

Somali pirates are not Somalis government, Somali pirates are not part of a government blockade nor do they attempt to diplomatically divert shipping.

The Israeli commandos were much more lethally armed than the average Somali "coast guard" sailor (as they would name themselves, already have in fact). And so forth.

Somali pirates don't go attacking ships with paintball guns.

You seem to think Israel has some kind of special status, the authority to name and label its own policies and operations in any way it chooses, is not accountable for the behavior of its soldiers or the consequences of its actions.

Its a state, it can make a blockade, and its action by its soldiers were within its rights.

 

[S.A.M.]

How did the Israelis kill 9-17 people with paintball guns? How did the activists end up with bullet holes in their foreheads or back of their heads?

What is the jurisdiction of an occupying military regime [like North Korea, for example] in international waters?

 

[ElectricFetus]

How did the Israelis kill 9-17 people with paintball guns?

The soldiers had pistols as secondary weapons. Somali pirates usually have AK-47 and RPGs.

How did the activists end up with bullet holes in their foreheads or back of their heads?

Considering the close quarters of combat, random rapid firing of a pistol.

What is the jurisdiction of an occupying military regime [like North Korea, for example] in international waters?

Does North Korea have a blockade that somehow allowed to be by the UN? Mind you I don't agree with the blockade but Israel got one thus making what they did technically legal.

 

[S.A.M.]

Does North Korea have a blockade that somehow allowed to be by the UN? Mind you I don't agree with the blockade but Israel got one thus making what they did technically legal.

Amazing. Somalians protecting their own coastline are pirates. Jews from Europe and elsewhere cutting off food, shoes, water and fuel for native non-Jews and killing global citizens in international waters to maintain that immoral seige are committing legal acts.

Is that why there is a demand for an international probe? Because everything is so legal and above board? Is that why Israel has made it a condition that the soldiers on board will not be questioned, because they did nothing wrong? Is that why all the phones and laptops, cameras etc. were confiscated by Israel, because there is nothing wrong with what happened on the flotilla?

So why exactly were the Israelis carrying paintball guns? Did they use them?