Zionist piracy

[ElectricFetus]

Amazing. Somalians protecting their own coastline are pirates.

The argument of them protecting there own coastlines from waste dumping has nothing to do with boarding ships and holding the crews ransom for money.

Jews from Europe and elsewhere cutting off food, shoes, water and fuel for native non-Jews and killing global citizens in international waters to maintain that immoral seige are committing legal acts.

Yeah, fucked up world isn't it?

Is that why there is a demand for an international probe? Because everything is so legal and above board?

I'm all for a international probe and certain am critical of Israel for not allowing it, but they are innocent until proven guilty.

Is that why Israel has made it a condition that the soldiers on board will not be questioned, because they did nothing wrong?

I'm sure the Israelis will and have questioned/debriefed them for there shame internal probe.

Is that why all the phones and laptops, cameras etc. were confiscated by Israel, because there is nothing wrong with what happened on the flotilla?

More likely because any media would be manipulated against Israel in the same manner that you believe Israeli manipulates media.

 

[pjdude1219]

does anyone know if Israel has started its "investigation" yet

 

[S.A.M.]

First meeting on Wednesday. [Today?]

Gaza flotilla probe panel to hold first meeting on Wednesday

http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...l-to-hold-first-meeting-on-wednesday-1.296466

But I wouldn't hold my breath:

The chairman of the panel, former Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Tirkel, told Army Radio that "he opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures," according to a Haaretz editorial.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-public-has-a-right-to-know-1.295797

 

[pjdude1219]

No one killed by commandos making an armed assault on a civilian ship in international waters, during the assault, is killed in "self defense".

The people on the target ship are defending, the commandos are attacking. Surely this is not a subtle or difficult matter?

exactly once one side has decided on a violent aggressive course of action(like taking heavily armed commandos with a helicopter insert when you ahve the reputation for intentionally harming and kill peaceful protesters) they cannot claim self defense as justification for any of their actions. to protect them selves maybe but not self defense.

 

[ElectricFetus]

exactly once one side has decided on a violent aggressive course of action(like taking heavily armed commandos with a helicopter insert when you ahve the reputation for intentionally harming and kill peaceful protesters)

Again they were not heavy armed and their reputation is irrelevant, peaceful protesters don't fight back.

they cannot claim self defense as justification for any of their actions. to protect them selves maybe but not self defense.

and back in circles we go: an enforcer can claim self-defense when criminals attacks them.

 

[pjdude1219]

Again they were not heavy armed

heavy combat armor stun grenades(which by the way produce sound pressure around 100 times that of the pain threshold) smg's /assualt rifles. pistols, and god knows what else isn't heavily armed? pray tell than what exactly is heavily armed to you.

and their reputation is irrelevant,

no they aren't because your expectation of harm is extremely relevant to how one acts. only to someone that wishes to excuse the actions of a group with a known reputation and history for causing harm to innocents says it irrelevant.

peaceful protesters don't fight back.

your making the common mistake of equating peaceful with pacifist. there are plenty of people out there who are peaceful but will defend themselves when threatened.

and back in circles we go: an enforcer can claim self-defense when criminals attacks them.

only if we do your favorite things when it comes to defending and supporting Israel we ignore the law. firstly the blockade is Illegal as it prevent needed basic goods into the blockaded territory. secondly since they sometimes claim to not being at war with gaza they cannot legally blockade the territory. thirdly at 70 miles they had no right to board the vessel unless they had reason to believe it was poaching their maritime resources. A country can only act with in its territorial waters plus the contingenous zone to prevent entrance into its territory which gaza isn't any way. note Israel doesn't have a contingenious zone so it could have only had a legality if it acted with in 12 miles of it cost. I'm pretty sure you know that 70> 12. fourthly Gaza isn't Israeli territory so has no legal right unless at war to prevent entrance into it.

 

[ElectricFetus]

heavy combat armor stun grenades(which by the way produce sound pressure around 100 times that of the pain threshold) smg's /assualt rifles. pistols, and god knows what else isn't heavily armed?

They did not have smg's and assault rifles on the initial boarding parties, they had paintball guns as there primary weapon and pistols as the backup. Paintball guns and stun grenades are less-then-lethal weapons. Heavy armament would have been no less-then-lethal weapons, assault rifles and frag grenades.

no they aren't because your expectation of harm is extremely relevant to how one acts.

peaceful resistance lacks violence even as self-defense.

only to someone that wishes to excuse the actions of a group with a known reputation and history for causing harm to innocents says it irrelevant.

You mean like how Palestinians treat Jews? In fact Muslims in general have a known reputation and history for harming innocents, stereotypical it maybe, does that mean that everyone else has a right to attack first?

Your making the common mistake of equating peaceful with pacifist. there are plenty of people out there who are peaceful but will defend themselves when threatened.

Then its not peaceful resistance. They were not threatened as the other ships stand as an example of that, they attacked before the soldiers even hit the deck, they were criminals violating a legitimate blockade and Israel had the right to stop them.

only if we do your favorite things when it comes to defending and supporting Israel we ignore the law.

Unfortunately the Israelis have the law in their favor on this.

firstly the blockade is Illegal as it prevent needed basic goods into the blockaded territory.

secondly since they sometimes claim to not being at war with gaza they cannot legally blockade the territory. thirdly at 70 miles they had no right to board the vessel unless they had reason to believe it was poaching their maritime resources. A country can only act with in its territorial waters plus the contingenous zone to prevent entrance into its territory which gaza isn't any way. note Israel doesn't have a contingenious zone so it could have only had a legality if it acted with in 12 miles of it cost. I'm pretty sure you know that 70> 12. fourthly Gaza isn't Israeli territory so has no legal right unless at war to prevent entrance into it.

Nice arguments but unfortunately they are all covered.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602

"CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose."

"Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say."

 

[Billy T]

... Somali pirates don't go attacking ships with paintball guns. ...

If paint balls were shot, would there not be some paint of the victims or on the ship for shots that missed? Why is there no evidence that paint balls were shot? There is plenty of evidence that bullets were shot, why none for paint balls?

 

[ElectricFetus]

If paint balls were shot, would there not be some paint of the victims or on the ship for shots that missed? Why is there no evidence that paint balls were shot? There is plenty of evidence that bullets were shot, why none for paint balls?

They were probably using pepperballs as paint balls them selves not actually used for Less-then-lethal weapons to subdue someone, just the paint-ball gun is used, you can see the paint ball gun hoppers clearly in this video at 53 sec: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo and it looks like he firing it though paint ball guns give no flash.

 

[GeoffP]

Amazing. Somalians protecting their own coastline are pirates.

When they attack foreign passenger boats rather than fishing boats, yes.

 

[S.A.M.]

A Jewish boat for Gaza:

Within days after the attack on the Mavi Marmara, European activists announced a Jewish Boat to sail in July from an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean, attempting to break the siege imposed by Israel in 2006. The boat is sponsored by a coalition of international Jewish organizations dedicated to peace with justice in Israel/Palestine, including the ''Jüdische Stimme'' (‘Jewish Voice’ for a Just Peace in the Near East), along with European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East (EJJP) and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK). American Jews for a Just Peace (AJJP) will serve as the U.S. Coordinator, creating a transatlantic partnership. The small boat’s cargo will include school books, medicines and medical equipment.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/transatlantic-jewish-coalition-set-to-break-the-siege-of-gaza.html

They are not revealing the starting location possibly to avoid any "accidents" before they set off

 

[Buffalo Roam]

exactly once one side has decided on a violent aggressive course of action(like taking heavily armed commandos with a helicopter insert when you ahve the reputation for intentionally harming and kill peaceful protesters) they cannot claim self defense as justification for any of their actions. to protect them selves maybe but not self defense.

Yes, pj,

once one side has decided on a violent aggressive course of action​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

The proposed plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency.[2][3] However, the plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community (the Palestine Arab Higher Committee etc.),[4][2] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League. In a communication to the United Nations Palestine Commission dated 19 January 1948, the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine stated that it was "determined [to] persist in rejection [to the] partition and in refusal [to] recognize UNO resolution [with] this respect and anything deriving therefrom

^ United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 session -1 Future government of Palestine on 29 November 1947
^ a b Antony Best (2004). International history of the twentieth century and beyond.. London: Routledge. pp. 120. ISBN 0-4-5-20739.
^ Martin Gilbert (1998). Israel: A History. UK: Doubleday. pp. 149. ISBN 0-688-12362-7.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5158480.ece

Hamas militants step up rocket attacks on Israel - Times Online
Nov 15, 2008 ... Hamas militants fired a barrage of rockets at the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon yesterday in an increase of violence that has all but ...


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE02/003/2002

Middle East: Israel and the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority: Without distinction - attacks on civilians by Palestinian armed groups



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/30/israel

Defiant Hamas leader says attacks on Israel will go on despite heavy human

chttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacksost in Gaza

The criteria used for this list: successful deliberate attacks committed by Palestinian militant groups against civilians and against security forces members using suicide bombers or other similar kind of bombing attacks.

Bold indicates attacks resulting in over 10 deaths.

Underscore indicates attacks resulting in over 20 deaths.

1 1993 (1 bombing)
2 1994 (5 bombings)
3 1995 (4 bombings)
4 1996 (4 bombings)
5 1997 (3 bombings)
6 1998 (1 bombing)
7 1999 (2 bombings)
8 2000 (4 bombings)
9 2001 (41 bombings)
10 2002 (45 bombings)
11 2003 (23 bombings)
12 2004 (19 bombings)
13 2005 (9 bombings)
14 2006 (3 bombings)
15 2007 (1 bombing)
16 2008 (1 bombing)
17 Total number of fatalities, by year
18 See also
19 Sources
20 References


Yes pj, the Arabs and Palestinians chose the road in 1947, a road of violence.

 

[Billy T]

... you can see the paint ball gun hoppers clearly in this video at 53 sec: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo and it looks like he firing it though paint ball guns give no flash.

Are you sure you gave the link you intended? I only saw some presumably ship people clubbing and the commandos sliding down their ropes.

I watched that link twice. Certainly not possible to see paint ball hoppers, in fact I could not even see any commando weapons.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Are you sure you gave the link you intended? I only saw some presumably ship people clubbing and the commandos sliding down their ropes.

I told you to look at 53 seconds. Do you know what a paint ball gun looks like? Like this:

I watched that link twice. Certainly not possible to see paint ball hoppers, in fact I could not even see any commando weapons.

your blind.

 

[Billy T]

To Buffalo:

Your post ends with a list of 20 items, but is not a link. I hope you have link for No. 17 in that list - I would like to see that (am assuming it includes only the Israelis killed) Do you have a link telling how many the Israelis have killed?

 

[Billy T]

I told you to look at 53 seconds. Do you know what a paint ball gun looks like? ...

Thanks. I will try again. I missunderstood your 53 seconds to be the duration of the video and did not really pay attention to it. Yes I can see it now. (quick toggeling from pause to play and back helps) It is visible as soon as 50 and is being lowered by 54 seconds.

I don't know anything about paint ball guns. Do they use CO2 or compressed air to expel the ball?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Thanks. I will try again. I missunderstood your 53 seconds to be the duration of the video and did not really pay attention to it. I hope I can some how "single frame" forward from 52 second point.

Here a still:

 

[GeoffP]

They are not revealing the starting location possibly to avoid any "accidents" before they set off

Slightly speculative.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I don't know anything about paint ball guns. Do they use CO2 or compressed air to expel the ball?

Depending on the model either CO2 or nitrogen/air. You can wiki it you know.

 

[GeoffP]

Here a still:

Well...I didn't really believe the paintball gun thing...but that's a paintball gun.