Zionist piracy

[GeoffP]

which really goes to show that the according to Israel the bloodthirsty activist looking to cause harm went out of their way to see that the Israelis were given medical care while the peace loving armed to the teeth Israel commandoes made sure the activist didn't receive medical attention

Is that demonstrably so?

 

[pjdude1219]

Is that demonstrably so?

if you watched the activist videos and not the carefully edited Israeli ones yes. not to mention a video where the audio is shit that may actual confirm that the Israelis fired live ammo from the helicopters before coming down to the deck.

 

[GeoffP]

if you watched the activist videos and not the carefully edited Israeli ones yes. not to mention a video where the audio is shit that may actual confirm that the Israelis fired live ammo from the helicopters before coming down to the deck.

So, not so, then.

 

[hypewaders]

When did the shootings start?

There is no clear evidence that the Israeli boarding parties did not shoot first. There is no evidence that activists shot anyone- at all.

...fifty passengers tried to turn the Israeli commandos into teacups with their magic wands?

Those poor soldiers. How could they have anticipated resistance when they prepared for blitz-boarding a relief ship loaded with political activists, in the dark and in international waters? Boo hoo.

First, it isn't a trickle: that's weasel language.

Israel has a tighter grip on the evidence than a weasel with a mouse in its clutches. We'll have to wait to see what further evidence slips out in images, audio, and testimony.

...we've examined quite a lot of them. You can honestly sit there and tell me you didn't see them? Smoke got in your eyes?

See whom? Terrorists, unlawful attackers? In what little there is to see, I haven't glimpsed any that were invited aboard Mavi Marmara.

 

[GeoffP]

There is no evidence that the Israeli boarding parties did not shoot first.

Oh, come the hell on: "there is no evidence they didn't shoot first". There is no evidence they shot prior to being mobbed, and that's the end of it. There is no evidence that the activists didn't eat Jewish babies, either.

Those poor soldiers. How could they have expected resistance blitz-boarding a protest ship, in the dark, in international waters?

Hype: this is admission, you know? Look, you and the rest can't argue on one side and then the other.

Israel has an extremely tight grip on the evidence. We'll have to wait to see what further evidence slips out in images, audio, and testimony.

I agree. But then again, we wouldn't be discussing this if we didn't want to make an issue out of it now, either.

See whom? Terrorists, unlawful attackers? In what little there is to see, I haven't glimpsed any that were invited aboard Mavi Marmara.

The legalities are a different question altogether. We were discussing the morality and responsibility. The issues are linked, of course.

 

[hypewaders]

...we wouldn't be discussing this if we didn't want to make an issue out of it now...

The mission of the boatlift is relief, along with international exposure of Israeli ethnic oppresson, in order to inspire international solidarity against it. Israel succeeded in nabbing relief supplies, but their control of information and their own image before the world is not so air-tight.

The legalities are a different question altogether. We were discussing the morality and responsibility. The issues are linked, of course.

The legalities, morality, and responsibility are all inextricably linked here, and in the global environment where Israel still insists that keeping a people imprisoned in deteriorating ghettos is the moral and responsible thing to do.

 

[Zakariya04]

hummm
not sure whether this has been mentioned but if as this was a Turkish shipa s it was carrying the flag of turkey and registered to turkey and as isreal attacked it then surely this is an attack on all Nato members cos if one is atacked they are all atatcked.. isnt that what nato is all about...

So Israel attacks nato ship!!

 

[ElectricFetus]

There is no clear evidence that the Israeli boarding parties did not shoot first. There is no evidence that activists shot anyone- at all.

Aside for soldiers with gunshot wounds of course.

Those poor soldiers. How could they have anticipated resistance when they prepared for blitz-boarding a relief ship loaded with political activists, in the dark and in international waters? Boo hoo.

Considering the other ships were boarded without resistance, yes it is sad.

Israel has a tighter grip on the evidence than a weasel with a mouse in its clutches. We'll have to wait to see what further evidence slips out in images, audio, and testimony.

Dam those 5 immortal Jewish bankers that rule the earth from there invisible orbital space fortress!

See whom? Terrorists, unlawful attackers? In what little there is to see, I haven't glimpsed any that were invited aboard Mavi Marmara.

True the activist thumbing their wacking sticks and slashing their knives was not every inviting.

 

[spidergoat]

This must have been one of the most filmed events since 9/11. I guess we won't know the full story until Israel releases the recordings (if they do).

 

[ElectricFetus]

hummm
not sure whether this has been mentioned but if as this was a Turkish shipa s it was carrying the flag of turkey and registered to turkey and as isreal attacked it then surely this is an attack on all Nato members cos if one is atacked they are all atatcked.. isnt that what nato is all about...

So Israel attacks nato ship!!

No it had a Comoros flag, and I don't think that how nato works.

 

[Billy T]

... deciding what we can see, but this is almost more frightening because the bias in these guys is immediately apparent except to the unintrospective. It takes away our ability to be actually informed about the issues and relegated 'reality' to a crew of one-siders ...

It seems you must be talking about Israel's confiscation of the video tapes, CDs, camera film and computers, taken from the ship?
OR
Perhaps you are speaking of the jamming of cells phones pre-boarding and the cutting of satellite link transmissions in the first few minutes after boarding?

 

[ElectricFetus]

It seems you must be talking about Israel's confiscation of the video tapes, CDs, camera film and computers, taken from the ship?
OR
Perhaps you are speaking of the jamming of cells phones pre-boarding and the cutting of satellite link transmissions in the first few minutes after boarding?

Does not change the videos of the "activist" thumbing, stabbing and calling for martyrdom beforehand, unless your going to claim that all CGI?

 

[pjdude1219]

its becoming abundently clear that for the Israel apoligists when a non jewish person interacts with Israel they have no right to self defense they should just accept what ever abuse Israel decides to give them. I get the feeling that with most of them that if a Jewish Israeli killed a puppy you'd start hearing cries from them that the puppy was a terrorist. I'm sorry for all of you who want to say Israel was justified in the out right murder of 9 people but if you have reason to fear that you will be harmed you have a right to take proactive measures to defend your self. and given the fact Israel has a long record of violently attacking peaceful protestors these people had ever fucking reason to expect they were going to be harmed. Not to mention we have yet to seen video that actually proves their allegations. no video of them actually being shot just Israel and its supporters word, no video showing what happened before the commandos touched the deck just Israel and its supporters word, no concrete evidence for anti semitic chants and calls to be maryters just Israel and its supporters word.

 

[pjdude1219]

This must have been one of the most filmed events since 9/11. I guess we won't know the full story until Israel releases the recordings (if they do).

You mean until they finish editing it to give they impression they want? even if they release any video we still won't know the full story.

 

[pjdude1219]

No it had a Comoros flag, and I don't think that how nato works.

NATO as a collective defense treaty means that when one member is attacked the other members are supposed to but don't have to help it against an attack from an external party.

 

[S.A.M.]

Amira Hass [who like FInkelstein is a child of Holocaust survivors] offers a unique viewpoint on the Gaza blockade:

The achievement of the failed flotilla to Gaza - mainly, it must be conceded, by its dead - is that the demand is being heard from everywhere that Israel halt its policy of siege. The government of Israel was not willing to listen to the desperate supplications of John Ging, the head of UNRWA in Gaza. Now it must heed French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. But unknowingly, this flotilla, like its predecessors and the ones still to come, serves the Israeli goal, which is to complete the process of separating the Gaza Strip from the West Bank. The process, it will be said here for the millionth time, started in 1991 and not after the rise of Hamas rule. It's purpose was to thwart the two-state solution, which the world understood at that time as based on all of Gaza and the West Bank, and the link between them.

And what serves the goal of separating Gaza from the West Bank better than forgetting the sealed the Erez crossing between Gaza and Israel, and focusing on Rafah and cement? Unintentionally, the runners of the maritime and media blockade focused attention on aspects that do not undermine the essence of Israel's closure of Gaza. And that essence is denying the right and thwarting the will of Gazans to be an active, permanent and natural part of Palestinian society.

Long before Israel prohibited the entry of cement into the Strip, it prohibited Gazans from studying in the West Bank. While it still permitted guavas to be exported from Khan Yunis to Jordan, it forbade Gazans to enter the West Bank even via the Allenby Bridge or to meet relatives and friends. Step by step, Israel developed draconian restrictions on Palestinians' freedom of movement, until it declared every Gazan in the West Bank, now and especially in the future, an illegal alien and an infiltrator. These are the essential prohibitions that must be breached. These are the prohibitions about whose existence Erdogan and U.S. President Barack Obama must be taught, and their abolition demanded.

A woman of intellect and conscience.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/not-by-cement-alone-1.295036

 

[pjdude1219]

Oh, come the hell on: "there is no evidence they didn't shoot first". There is no evidence they shot prior to being mobbed, and that's the end of it.

that is a false statement according to video released from one of those on the ships you can hear gunshots coming from the hueys.

 

[GeoffP]

The mission of the boatlift is relief, along with international exposure of Israeli ethnic oppresson, in order to inspire international solidarity against it. Israel succeeded in nabbing relief supplies, but their control of information and their own image before the world is not so air-tight.

This is a deviation from the topic, Hype: we were talking about the culpability of the tragedy, not the relief mission as a whole (which I naturally support).

The legalities, morality, and responsibility are all inextricably linked here, and in the global environment where Israel still insists that keeping a people imprisoned in deteriorating ghettos is the moral and responsible thing to do.

Not the responsibility for this specific tragedy. It does not follow that the Gaza Blockade - being reprehensible in its own right - means that the attack on the soldiers is without fault.

(And as for your other point: If I were to reverse Sam's argument, I would suggest that Palestinians like to live in ghettos, because that's where Jewish people used to be kept all over the Middle East. Obviously, Palestinian people don't like to be kept in ghettos, and the point would be disgusting, but I've yet to hear you call her on it.)

that is a false statement according to video released from one of those on the ships you can hear gunshots coming from the hueys.

Then cite that video, or retract.

Well only in your fucked up world where you and only you gets to decide whats factual contrary to any and all evidence.

That was a fine bit of agrammatical ad hominem.

 

[GeoffP]

It seems you must be talking about Israel's confiscation of the video tapes, CDs, camera film and computers, taken from the ship?
OR
Perhaps you are speaking of the jamming of cells phones pre-boarding and the cutting of satellite link transmissions in the first few minutes after boarding?

OR

Am I speaking of the seemingly edited Democracy Now video?

Choices, choices.

 

[GeoffP]

its becoming abundently clear that for the Israel apoligists when a non jewish person interacts with Israel they have no right to self defense

Such as an armed mobbing with iron "sticks".

I'm sorry for all of you who want to say Israel was justified in the out right murder of 9 people but if you have reason to fear that you will be harmed you have a right to take proactive measures to defend your self.

Which explains intimately the massive orgies of blood on the other five ships of the flotilla.

Or, wait: it explains the non-orgies, I guess.

and given the fact Israel has a long record of violently attacking peaceful protestors these people had ever fucking reason to expect they were going to be harmed.

Excepting, of course, that the other five ships then suggests they had an 83.3% chance of not being harmed.

I wonder, O I wonder, what possible complicating reason there could have been for the tragedy?

Not to mention we have yet to seen video that actually proves their allegations.

Except for all the posted videos.

no video of them actually being shot just Israel and its supporters word, no video showing what happened before the commandos touched the deck

Except for all the posted videos.

no concrete evidence for anti semitic chants and calls to be maryters just Israel and its supporters word.

Sure, sure: supporters like AP and al Jazeera. Really, I had no idea the latter had such a stake in Israel's survival.

Seriously, pj: does this kind of trolling generate a moment's regret or hesitation at any point?