Zionist piracy

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Maybe you know, maybe you don't....entering a blockade as a neutral is an act of aggression....

Ok So your foreign minister was wrong cheski as Gaza is not part of your soverign nation or is it??


The isrealis and their supportes really should make up there mind wheterh Gaza is occupied or not as at the moment it is like an unsoverign soverign naion depending on what isreali leader you are talkign to and what you are talking about!!!
 
When did I say they weren't sovereign? They are...they're just under blockade. Cuba wasn't a part of America when they were blockaded. How do you blockade your own country, do that even make sense?
 
... I would venture to ask whether it is the responsibility of the West to always 'do something' ...
Yes. The "West" (read USA) should stop "doing something." Read: Giving Israel more dollars than all others and rockets to fire into Gaza apartment buildings (from the Apache helicopters it also gave.)
 
Well doesn't that depend on the goal? If the goal is land and separate homeland it probably will not work. If the goal is a one state solution it is absolutely fundamental, its fundamental because like the situation in Northern Ireland you have to show you can live with the other without threatening the other. As long as you have Hamas deflecting from the humanitarian situation by the use of standard military tactics against Israel the West and Israel can easily see the Palestinians as a 'fighting group' not a group that is being oppressed without cause. So I disagree with you, the Hamas are not behaving like 'peaceful bedouins' anymore than the IRA were sitting ducks. Hamas has not shown the good will that the IRA were willing to take in order to attain peace and broker for a larger political role and be taken seriously. As long as Hamas uses might against the Israeli's the Israelis can show cause for their actions.
I never even suggested Hamas wanted peace, was like the Bedouins, etc. so you cannot disagree with me on that as we agree.

Do you favor the one state solution? I think that would be good too, but unfortunately it is totally unacceptable to Israel. Israel is ALREADY concerned that the Jews may not have political control. Israel wants to be both a Jewish state and a democracy. Both are not possible in the one state solution.

I think the best that can be hoped for is Israel will switch to active defense and cease it "High Kill Ratio" policy, which has failed for 60 years to solve the the problem. That can protect ALL Israelis from being killed by persons living in Gaza - By means I have described** in detail. There is so much hate on both sides that this active defense would need to be maintained for about 40 years (two generations) so most of those blinded by hate die in their beds of old age.

**See active defense plan at: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115
 
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An Israeli might say that they too had to walk through bits and pieces of their loved ones. The pain is the same whether you lose someone at the hands of an IDF or lose them from an anonymous bomber its the same. ...
Yes individually that is true, but Israel has a "High Kill Ratio" policy, so the Palestinians feel 30 to 50 times more pain.

During the Lebanon invasion by Israel the there were more than 300 killed by Israel and only 2 Israelis died. That is a kill ration of > 150 to 1.
For 60 years this high kill ratio policy has failed - time to try something else (especially as it can reduce Israeli deaths from Gaza to ZERO. For how, See:

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

Note with only about half of this plan is how the "green zone" in Baghdad is safe from even mortars, which are much harder to stop that the crude Gaza rockets.
 
... Like I've said, boarding parties aren't an uncommon thing in the maritime world... it happens ALL the time, and usually without the loss of life...
Rarely at 4:30 AM in full commando gear. I hope the next ship Israel stops to inspect for arms or to force to go to another port is done in daylight. If after asking permission to come on board, lightly armed as US Coast Guard does, and they are refused, then more forceful actions can be taken.

Starting at 4:30 AM by jamming all cell phones and dropping "flash bangs," gives a hint of what the Israeli intent was.
 
Nice pictures Spock, but as you so frequently lie, I assume they were taken in Jordan. Recall last I time I exposed one of your lies, I concluded with the advise: "Wise up don't make claims everyone knows are false as you lose all crediabilty even when telling the truth."

False claims like boats were not ~ 70 miles off shore; Al Cazeera Broadcast the "entire event" from the boat, etc.

We saw on TV only the Israeli boats approaching and less than a minute of the initial confusion and panic below deck before the IDF cut Al Cazeera's broadcast off - Abuses went on for ~1.5 hours according to the reports now coming out from the kidnapped victims now released. Less than 60 seconds in not the "entire event."

You are so little constrained by the truth, I am nearly sure your pictures are from an earlier era or from Jordan etc. They conflict too much with many reports by impartial observers.
 
... politics will always yield to what works. Its not about sentiment. ...
Here I will disagree with you. Has the 60 years of "High Kill Ratio" politics / policy worked for Israel? Obviously not. Is it time to try something different? Obviously yes. Why has there been no change in 60 years of failed policy? Answer: Because of a very powerful sentiment: hate.
 
Some sobering words of the events..

THE Israeli attack was timed for dawn prayers - when a large number of the men aboard the Mavi Marmara were praying on the aft deck of the Turkish passenger ferry, as she motored steadily through international waters in the eastern Mediterranean Sea.

-----------------------------------

Pacing the Mavi Marmara at a steady eight knots and just 150 metres to its port side, photographer Kate Geraghty and I were aboard the 25-metre Challenger I, the fastest but also the smallest boat in the flotilla.


---------------------------------------

Then, the tightening noose. Sneaking up and around every boat, there were bullet-shaped hulks that soon became impossible to hide as the moonlight made fluorescent tubes of their roiling wakes. First one, then two and maybe four could be seen sneaking in from the rear.

They hunted like hyenas - moving up and ahead on the flanks; pushing in, then peeling away; and finally, lagging before lunging. But as they came alongside the Mavi Marmara, the dozen or so helmeted commandos in each assault craft copped the full force of the ferry's fire hoses and a shower of whatever its passengers found on deck or could break from the ship's fittings.

Suddenly, sound bombs and tear-gas were exploding on the main aft-deck, where prayers were held five times a day. The lifejacketed passengers on the rails at first seemed oblivious as those behind them donned the few gas masks that were on board and others, wearing asbestos gloves, sought to grab the devices and hurl them back at the Israeli commandos - before they exploded.

In failing to get their grappling irons to hold on the rails of the five-deck ferry, the commandos in their assault craft continued to be an irritant, or perhaps a decoy because at this point the Israelis opted for a critical change of plan - if they could not come up from the water, then they would have to drop from the sky.

The death toll stands at nine of the ship's activists with maybe 30 injured. There were claims from some on the ship that some of their comrades were missing, unaccounted for since the battle at sea and the chaotic arrest and deportation by Israel of the estimated 700 activists on board the six vessels.

------------------------------------------

There were conflicting accounts of the first commando's landing - some activists said he was injured and was being carried inside the ship for treatment by the flotilla doctors. However, a Serbian cameraman, Srojan Stojiljkovic, said that some of the activists had armed themselves with lengths of chain and metal posts.

''Some of the people caught the first commando before he touched the deck - a few started to hit him, but a lot of people moved in to shelter him with their bodies,'' the cameraman said. ''Another soldier with a bleeding nose was brought in … a few people threw punches, but not as many as I would have expected.''

Matthias Gardel, a leader of the Swedish Palestinian support group, confirmed that the soldiers had been beaten, but insisted that those involved were unarmed and that in keeping with the ship's non-violent charter, the soldiers' weapons were thrown overboard.

Soon after the soldiers had been treated, the injured and dead from among the ship's passengers were brought in.

Mr Stojiljkovic said: ''Some were not badly wounded, but then a guy was brought in with a point-blank shot between his eyes - he was dead and I was told that another person was killed in the same way.''

The Turkish actor Sinan Albayrak said he had witnessed one of the most senior of the Turkish activists ordering passengers to cease beating two of the Israeli soldiers. Later, he saw a Turkish photographer who had been shot in the back of the head; and while he and others had been attempting to assist another injured activist, Israeli troops had opened fire on them.

Mr Gardel said that the bulk of the passengers had remained in the second deck saloons and had not been involved in resisting the Israelis. ''But a bunch of people tried to protect the bridge, the engine-room and the point from which we streamed the live video,'' he said.

Another activist, a Turk, lifted his shirt to reveal 10 puncture marks in a rough and black-bruised circle, about the circumferences of a tea cup, which he said had been inflicted when he was bitten by an Israeli security dog while assisting the Israelis as a translator.

The dead are believed to include Turkish journalist Chetin Genghis, whose head wounds suggested he had been shot from above - possibly from one of the Israeli helicopters.

Another of the dead was said to be an Indonesian cameraman, Sura Fachrizaz, who was shot in the chest. Also among the dead was a Malaysian doctor who, activists said, was shot while treating the wounded.

"Suddenly, sound bombs and tear gas exploded" By Paul McGeough (Journalist one one of the flotilla boats)

Interesting..
 
Business as usual, for those of us who have lived in some proximity to Israelis. So it happened on the water. Let's all Google Ga Ga.
 
When did I say they weren't sovereign? They are...they're just under blockade. Cuba wasn't a part of America when they were blockaded. How do you blockade your own country, do that even make sense?

ok so thats fine cheski u think that Gaza is an enemy state while Leiberman thinks its isreali terrirtory

so thats fine then the flotila was not an infringement on isreali soverignty so what the shiiite that lieberman is comign outwith then
 
Vice President Biden doing a masterful job of helping the American people to remain ignorant and misinformed:

Vice President said:
Joe Biden: Look, you can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not and the – but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know – they're at war with Hamas – has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in. And up to now, Charlie, what's happened? They've said, "Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship – if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza." So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, "I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight – 3,000 rockets on my people." Now, the one thing we have to do is not forget the plight of these Palestinians there, not Hamas – they're in bad shape. So we have put as much pressure and as much cajoling on Israel as we can to allow them to get building materials in, glass...

Charlie Rose: That's what they're trying to bring in, building materials.

Biden: Yes, we know that, but they could have easily brought it in here and we'd get it through. And so now the question is what do we do? Well, we had made it clear, the President of the United States has spoken three times, yesterday with Bibi, or the day before yesterday, he's spoken once yesterday with a guy that I have spent a fair amount of time with, with Prime Minister Erdogan in Turkey; the Turks, we passed a resolution in the UN saying we need a transparent and open investigation of what happened. It looks like things are...

Rose: International investigation?

Biden: Well, an investigation run by the Israelis, but we're open to international participation, just like the investigation run on the sunken sub in – off the coast of Korea. That was run by South Korea, but the international community joined in that investigation. And so that is very possible here as well. I might add by the way for all those who say the Israelis, you know, you know, you can't trust them, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled today that every one of the people on those ships had to be released immediately.

Israel may or may not have kept there promise to deliver the flotillas aid but Israel could reduce the UN AID allowed into Gaza to keep total AID reduced. The flotilla had Water filtration equipment and paper which according to somebody who was on the flotilla are items that Israel has not allowed into Gaza for 3 years. The flotilla could have gone to Israel but that would defeat the purpose of the flotilla which is to put pressure on Israel to lift the blockade.

Israel's right to inspect goods flowing to Gaza and look for arms is not being challenged. Israel's right to stop water filtration equipment from reaching Gaza is being challenged. Israel's right to stop paper from reaching Gaza is being challenged.

Joe Biden probably understands what he is doing. Joe Biden is working to keep Americans supporting the Blockade. That is unacceptable. Joe Biden, you are a war criminal. The blockade is unacceptable and is a violation of international law and more importantly is a violation human decency.

This is one more thing that Democrats have done that make me ask myself what the hell the point of voting for Democrats is.
 
You seem to be confused nirakar.

You're saying 2 different things... the point of the flotilla is to challenge the blockade... but then you say Israel's right to inspect goods going to Gaza isn't being challenged.

Well? Which is it? Is the blockade being challenged, or isn't it? You can't have it both ways.
 
You seem to be confused nirakar. You're saying 2 different things... the point of the flotilla is to challenge the blockade... but then you say Israel's right to inspect goods going to Gaza isn't being challenged.

Well? Which is it? Is the blockade being challenged, or isn't it? You can't have it both ways.
No it is you who is confused. Yes Israel has the right to inspect for weapons and drugs etc. Normally this is done in daytime and after permission to board has been granted (and if it is not then more force can be used). Exactly the way the US Coast Guard and civilized nations do this.

Israel blocks much more than weapons, things like the flotilla was trying to deliver. Things such as water filtration equipment, medicines, pencils and paper and toys for children. I.e. Anything that might make the Palestinian children healthier and better educated. Presumably on the grounds that some may grow up and be willing to die for their freedom*. Probably why Israel bombed a hospital in the Lebanon Invasion.** - A future freedom fighter might be in the maternity ward.

*What was it Patric Henry said? You forgot? OK it was: "Give me liberty or give me death."

**BTW among those killed the first day of that invasion was a Brazilian family of four sleeping in their beds. The girl did not die immediately when the Israeli bomb exploded. The bloody trail from her bed to her mother's shows that.

-------------------------

Israel must stop killing so many innocent people or it will be the death of Israel in the end.* As a true friend of Israel, not like those who think Israel can do no wrong, I have suggested (back in 2005 the first time) an alternative** that would actually save Israeli lives too and in a couple of generations allow real peace between these two semitic peoples to develop.

* "Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword."
Probably delivered as Anthrax or Ebola spores spread from Israeli high rise buildings (or in balloons launched near Israeli borders) about a decade from now by martyrs willing to die of the diseases as Israel will be able to remain much stronger in conventional arms for decades more. The very lethal version of Anthrax which acts thru the lungs that Russia and US made in large quantities. - It is highly likely, compared to nuclear bomb, to have already been smuggled out of Russia in a small sealed tube.)

** Read the more clear 2006 statement of that defensive plan here:http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

PS reply to Spock's post 858: Cite one lie I have made. I cited two of yours in my post you quoted.
 
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Nice pictures Spock, but as you so frequently lie, I assume they were taken in Jordan. Recall last I time I exposed one of your lies, I concluded with the advise: "Wise up don't make claims everyone knows are false as you lose all crediabilty even when telling the truth."

False claims like boats were not ~ 70 miles off shore; Al Cazeera Broadcast the "entire event" from the boat, etc.

We saw on TV only the Israeli boats approaching and less than a minute of the initial confusion and panic below deck before the IDF cut Al Cazeera's broadcast off - Abuses went on for ~1.5 hours according to the reports now coming out from the kidnapped victims now released. Less than 60 seconds in not the "entire event."

You are so little constrained by the truth, I am nearly sure your pictures are from an earlier era or from Jordan etc. They conflict too much with many reports by impartial observers.

Instead of calling me a liar (which in itself is a lie from someone I exposed as a liar) if you were smar and use google translate on the headline you would get:

From my / lens "Palestine Today" pick up scenes preparations for Gazans to Eid al-Adha::

Maybe copy\past are two actions too complicated for you?
 
No it is you who is confused. Yes Israel has the right to inspect for weapons and drugs etc. Normally this is done in daytime and after permission to board has been granted (and if it is not then more force can be used). Exactly the way the US Coast Guard and civilized nations do this.

Israel blocks much more than weapons, things like the flotilla was trying to deliver. Things such as water filtration equipment, medicines, pencils and paper and toys for children. I.e. Anything that might make the Palestinian children healthier and better educated. Presumably on the grounds that some may grow up and be willing to die for their freedom*. Probably why Israel bombed a hospital in the Lebanon Invasion.** - A future freedom fighter might be in the maternity ward.

*What was it Patric Henry said? You forgot? OK it was: "Give me liberty or give me death."

**BTW among those killed the first day of that invasion was a Brazilian family of four sleeping in their beds. The girl did not die immediately when the Israeli bomb exploded. The bloody trail from her bed to her mother's shows that.

-------------------------

Israel must stop killing so many innocent people or it will be the death of Israel in the end.* As a true friend of Israel, not like those who think Israel can do no wrong, I have suggested (back in 2005 the first time) an alternative** that would actually save Israeli lives too and in a couple of generations allow real peace between these two semantic peoples to develop.

* "Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword." Probably delivered as Anthrax or Ebola spores spread from Israeli high rise buildings (or in balloons launched near Israeli borders) about a decade from now by martyrs willing to die of the diseases as Israel will be able to remain much stronger in conventional arms for decades more.)

** Read the more clear 2006 statement of that defensive plan here:http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

PS reply to Spock's post 858: Cite one lie I have made. I cited two of yours in my post you quoted.

things billy you might note would in their betterment of their lives make them less willing to want violence and support it.
 
PS reply to Spock's post 858: Cite one lie I have made. I cited two of yours in my post you quoted.

You mean claiming I work for the state department trying to distract other users from what I post isn't called a lie?

Billy T here has a short memory. He forgets that when I first joined SciForums he urged everyone to ignore me, mostly because im an Israeli probably out of fear that Israelis would tell their side of the story by claiming Im a student on the Israeli foreign affairs department payroll.

A true friend of Israel indeed.
 
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