You did answer my question, where were you when HAMAS killed their own people? You know things havent changed since then, they are still killing.
Zionist piracy
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You did answer my question, where were you when HAMAS killed their own people? You know things havent changed since then, they are still killing.
Well we learned the caste system from history. So should the rest of the world adopt it? There is also slavery, women without suffrage, no consent in marriage and if we go far back enough, no consent in sex at any age.
How far back do you want to go to learn from history?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Thing is that Israel IS a part of the international community, it hasn't earned 'rogue state' props as yet.
Israel would have to relax its stance if Hamas truly denounced violence. Just as the UK had to change its tactics when the IRA began to engage politically in such a way that the UK couldn't use 'terrorism' as an avenue to oppress the Catholic Irish. Ever watch 'The Wind that Shakes the Barley'? Its historically correct. Its about the first initial IRA in the South and how they came to a compromise against the British. It lead to a split between the IRA who couldn't live with a compromise that left the British in the North. They broke up and went to fight in the North and the rest became history. Think the South were happy that they didn't take that route? Hell yeah!
The self appointing trolls for justice. I think Justice has nausea knowing you are speaking in her behalf.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
LOL! How much time do you have?
You're missing the point. Its not that the rest of the world should learn from the caste system its that if you are looking for the same results as produced by the caste system you will model your tactics based on what worked. You base your opinions of what you think is right or wrong but politics will always yield to what works. Its not about sentiment. Its why Ralph Nader cannot run a good campaign no matter how reasonable and just his agenda.
Compromise can occur when intent is displayed in an honest and open manner. I acknowledge you, and perhaps this may lead to you acknowledging me. Now, we have the potential of a basis for further communication. An so forth. Nobody is assuming it will be easy.
Neither of these instance were or are acceptable. Not ethically or politically.
It has not, and will not work. It only serves to radicalize not just the HAMAS government, but every single person suffering under the occupation. HAMAS cannot dream to engage militarily, as it does not have even 1/1000000th of the capability of the IDF. If there was any real potential, we would be seeing heaps of dead Israelis. Which we have not and are not. :m:
Not this again? When you disenfranchise, imprison, harass, oppress and starve a people, the most natural instinct is not submission, but resistance. Why is this so hard to fathom?
Apart from some geographical seperation, G_d alone knows why these (insert indecent word here) people cannot just unite and get along for the common good of their people. I am hopeful however, that unity will be achieved at some point in the near future.
Nonsense, when a people are imprisoned, walled in, divided and conquered this is what can happen. Lets leave conjecture until such a time as there is an actual united Palestinian State.
correction ISrael has earned its rougue nation props it just hasn't been given them yet.
LOL! How much time do you have?
You're missing the point. Its not that the rest of the world should learn from the caste system its that if you are looking for the same results as produced by the caste system you will model your tactics based on what worked.
Thats why I said you need to keep your eyes on the goal posts.
What was the end game for the US? What is the end game for Israel?
I think all Jews who favour the Jewish state should enlist in the IDF and live there. Defend the state by all means. But why live in a society which is clearly not a Jewish state and defend a Jewish state? Is their constitution not applicable to Jews? The Australian journalist on the flotilla was surprised to see that two of the commandos shooting at them were Australian-Israelis. But I say, if this is how they feel, better they should be in Israel than Australia/
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I agree but is there a sense of what the goal post is?
The end game is what you see today whereby the US is the governing body throughout the land. Israel I believe is looking for the same thing. From sea to shining sea and all that jazz.
Okay but don't you think that the people on board knew it would be risky? If you look at how Israel has behaved in these situations in the past they could have had Carter and Desmond Tutu on board and they would have still would have stopped the vessels by any means necessary. I am surprised though, the IDF are seasoned, they shouldn't have made any mistakes. Next time they should just call in the SAS
Of course they knew it was going to be risky. But that doesn't change that what they did was foolish. While I agree that the IDF shouldn't have made any mistakes, there's always the factor of Murphy's Law that can turn any situation into garbage no matter the experience. They never expected to jump on board a vessel full of people ready to just pick up whatever was at hand and straight up attack them, especially when that vessel is supposedly carrying humanitarian aid and what-not.
However, I don't agree that they should call in the SAS... the Spetsnaz should do the trick. Then people can see what real brutality is, they'll be calling for the IDF to re-take over boarding operations almost immediately.
You mean when the US was established it was meant to be a separatist state?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
No. The Indians were in the same position of not wanting to give up their land. The 'occupiers' had established a state and they needed to incorporate the indians into that state not have large groups of Indian populations who were armed and demanding their rights and ancestral lands. Its the period called the 'indian wars'. You can see the timetable on this link:
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1008.html
So now you are saying the Armenian genocide makes hijacking Turkish ships in 2010 OK. Wow.
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Spock's not entirely stable upstairs
saw a vid on the news today. it looked like to me that when the Israeli commandoes came down and got close to the people on board they tried to kick them.
I think of "Rogue State" and "International community" as being think tank created, focus group tested propaganda phrases. Who gets to decide if you are part of the international community or are a rogue nation? Who gets to speak for the international community?
Bells
Staff member
So Hamas is still killing Palestinians in the streets? Did Hamas learn to kill Palestinians from Israel or vice versa? I wonder if Hamas were taught when Israel supported them against the then PLO? So who learned from whom?
You still don't get it, do you? I protest against any violence against innocent civilians. Unlike you, who is in this thread gloating over the deaths of 9 innocent civilians, not to mention making the most idiotic and moronic comments that you have made since you first joined this forum. Nor do I try to justify the death and violence of innocent civilians.
When independent journalists find themselves in such a situation that they start talking about "bearing witness" to the violence committed by the IDF, and being thankful to be alive to "bear witness", after all of their equipment was ceased not returned by the Israeli Government, then yeah, you have an issue.
Cheski:
You've linked to the entire treaty. Did you read the whole thing? Which parts do you think are relevant, in particular?
This quote refers to a different situation from the one we're discussion. It concerns a situation where two states are at war and one of the belligerents captures an enemy ship that is carrying neutral cargo (like it says).
Israel is not at war with Turkey. This is therefore irrelevant.
So you think that in international law it is permissible for any nation to declare a blockade of any other nation (including ones it has not declared war on), and use its military to prevent third parties from sending supplies to that nation? Apply a little common sense. Does this sound to you like a law that the international community would accept?*
I'm a neutral observer. You're obviously deeply committed to Israel.
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* Actually, there is one common-sense except to the general rule, which you ought to be able to discover without too much trouble.
You've linked to the entire treaty. Did you read the whole thing? Which parts do you think are relevant, in particular?
This quote refers to a different situation from the one we're discussion. It concerns a situation where two states are at war and one of the belligerents captures an enemy ship that is carrying neutral cargo (like it says).
Israel is not at war with Turkey. This is therefore irrelevant.
So you think that in international law it is permissible for any nation to declare a blockade of any other nation (including ones it has not declared war on), and use its military to prevent third parties from sending supplies to that nation? Apply a little common sense. Does this sound to you like a law that the international community would accept?*
I'm a neutral observer. You're obviously deeply committed to Israel.
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* Actually, there is one common-sense except to the general rule, which you ought to be able to discover without too much trouble.
so basicallyt what we learn by all of this is that Gaza is still occupied by isreal even though they "withdrew" a few years back
well thats according to the great Avigdor Leiberman the foriegnm minister of Isreal!
as he says
"that no country would allow a foreign entity to threaten its sovereign borders"
well thats according to the great Avigdor Leiberman the foriegnm minister of Isreal!
as he says
"that no country would allow a foreign entity to threaten its sovereign borders"
What's the point in posting a response James R? You're always "right", you never prove you are...you just have this way of never having any burden of proof. You're always permitted to inquire because of your apparently "scientific mind", however, those inquiries run into an Israeli blockade when it comes to someone disagreeing with you.
Maybe you know, maybe you don't....entering a blockade as a neutral is an act of aggression....
Maybe you know, maybe you don't....entering a blockade as a neutral is an act of aggression....
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