Zionist piracy

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Where are the pictures of food, clothes medicine, generators etc.? Everyone is only showing pictures of toys. Toys are not that relevant during a blockade, especially if you only get in once you would need to make it count with the majority of the stock being essentials.

 

[Black Jack]

When you successfully blow yourself up at someone's wedding party or a coffee shop... Its a blast

I see what you did there...

No seriously though... that's the big reason why the Israeli's have an embargo/blockade up... they don't want materials for bombs like that getting through, and can you really blame them?

Also, if Hamas used it's "Might" they would get annihilated. Israel has a formidable military and some of the most up-to-date equipment available. They can hold their own.

 

[S.A.M.]

Everything is with the Israelis and they are not giving access. Apparently Hamas has declared that they will not accept any of the aid until all the detainees are freed

Here is a youtube video of the MV Rachel Corrie being prepared for Gaza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjyurMgrQu0

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The question can also be asked, why should Hamas deal with Israel, when Israel sees fit to place a blockade upon Gaza, to the extreme detriment of the Palestinian people who had democratically elected them to power. Democracy and free vote is only acceptable when the right person wins..

Who do you think they need to deal with? Who else is there they would have to make a deal with if they are to be recognized? Whom did you think the IRA needed to deal with? They don't have to talk to anyone but they aren't doing themselves nor their people any favors. The Palestinian people elected them to power when there are nations that consider them a terrorist organization. If the palestinian people believe and endorse the agenda of Hamas then Israel has every right to react the way they do even if it means great discomfort and suffering. If the Palestinian cause amounts to taking all the land back or 'their fate is to vanish' as one Hamas leader said of Israel then they are not a benign population but a threat. See what I mean? Fatah at least has an agenda that allows them to work with Israel.

 

[S.A.M.]

Might as in aggression Sam. When you successfully blow yourself up at someone's wedding party or a coffee shop or use car bombs its a pretty might sight.

Its a blast

Does it beat blowing up schoolchildren from the air? Maybe Palestinians feel that Israels also need to experience walking through the bits and pieces of their loved ones to know what it feels like. Can you imagine what experiences the average Palestinian child goes through? I once saw a picture of Palestine in which the upper torso of a young man was lying on the street and children were passing by, dressed for school. This was after one of the air attacks that Israel daily subjects them to. I dare anyone to live in Gaza for a lifetime and not be damaged by it. The fact that they have only a handful of suicide bombers in the millions who live there is really surprising.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I see what you did there...

No seriously though... that's the big reason why the Israeli's have an embargo/blockade up... they don't want materials for bombs like that getting through, and can you really blame them?

Also, if Hamas used it's "Might" they would get annihilated. Israel has a formidable military and some of the most up-to-date equipment available. They can hold their own.

No, I don't blame Israel for trying to block those materials. What others don't seem to understand is that as long as Hamas reacts militarily Israel has an excuse to see the situation as a security situation and not a civil liberty humanitarian situation. It legitimizes the full on crack down the Israeli's have engaged themselves in.

Israel is not worried about their out of date equipment they are worried about Hamas getting their hands on something more nefarious like a dirty bomb which is why there are all these check-points and stressy paranoid demarcations, searches etc. One of the reasons why goods are taking so long to get into Gaza is because the Israeli's have to check EVERYTHING and make sure they do not have dual use, this clogs things up for sure but I don't think it justifies the flotilla muck-up. Israel could have seized those vessels without taking any lives.

 

[Bells]

Who do you think they need to deal with? Who else is there they would have to make a deal with if they are to be recognized? Whom did you think the IRA needed to deal with? They don't have to talk to anyone but they aren't doing themselves nor their people any favors. The Palestinian people elected them to power when there are nations that consider them a terrorist organization. If the palestinian people believe and endorse the agenda of Hamas then Israel has every right to react the way they do even if it means great discomfort and suffering. If the Palestinian cause amounts to taking all the land back or 'their fate is to vanish' as one Hamas leader said of Israel then they are not a benign population but a threat. See what I mean? Fatah at least has an agenda that allows them to work with Israel.

My point, Lucy, that you cannot demand democracy and then reject it when the side you wanted to win, does not win.

Israel would do more damage to Hamas if they lifted the blockade and stopped the settlements and allowed the Palestinians the freedoms they deserve. The blockade, the attacks each time some retard fires a rocket over the border, denying them their basic human rights, disrespecting them as human beings.. that only makes Hamas stronger.

When children cannot go to school or do not have a roof over their heads because Israel destroyed it and won't allow the materials in to rebuild, that empowers Hamas. If a Palestinian so much as farts in Israel's direction at the moment, whether that individual is with Hamas or not, then Hamas is blamed. Hamas will not change their charter or recognise a State that is starving its people and denying them their right to exist as human beings.

But the biggest issue is the wake-up call Israel has given the international community. This focuses on the Israeli "blockade" of Gaza. Israeli control of entry to and exit from Gaza, like the West Bank, is decades old. But Israel set out in 2006 to punish Gazans for electing a Hamas government. Paradoxical behaviour from "democratic" Israel, but hardly surprising.

The intensity of the blockade increased after the Israeli-Hamas war in late 2008 and early 2009. Make life difficult for ordinary Palestinians, so the theory went, and they will turn on Hamas. It didn't work and it won't. Not because Hamas is a pretty organisation with noble leaders, but because, given a choice between Israeli and Palestinian bastardry, Palestinians will mostly opt for the latter.

And where is the international community in all this? Generally providing cover for Israel, through its own determination to have nothing to do with Hamas. Despite the fact that Hamas came to power through a genuine electoral process, most Western governments, including Australia, decided they liked the process more than the result. So they imposed conditions on Hamas that, in effect, asked it to commit political suicide. The conditions might sound reasonable - renounce violence, recognise Israel, accept previous agreements. But what then would have been left to negotiate, even if Hamas had come to the table?

Those who take umbrage at this line might reflect on the fact Hamas has its share of hardliners and pragmatists. The latter have shown openness to a two-state solution. By all means, don't trust them. But don't pretend Hamas can be wished out of existence by punishing the people of Gaza.

Remember Israel's intelligence services once provided support to Hamas, then seen as less inimical to Israel than the Palestine Liberation Organisation under Yasser Arafat. Palestinians are now further from liberation than ever. They share the blame for this, with Israel and the wider world.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/israels-folly-may-be-the-catalyst-the-west-needs-20100602-wzv8.html

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Does it beat blowing up schoolchildren from the air? Maybe Palestinians feel that Israels also need to experience walking through the bits and pieces of their loved ones to know what it feels like. Can you imagine what experiences the average Palestinian child goes through? I once saw a picture of Palestine in which the upper torso of a young man was lying on the street and children were passing by, dressed for school. This was after one of the air attacks that Israel daily subjects them to. I dare anyone to live in Gaza for a lifetime and not be damaged by it. The fact that they have only a handful of suicide bombers in the millions who live there is really surprising.

An Israeli might say that they too had to walk through bits and pieces of their loved ones. The pain is the same whether you lose someone at the hands of an IDF or lose them from an anonymous bomber its the same. Until you see the 'enemy' and 'yourself' as the same you will never bridge that gap that only allows you to see the motivation of one and not the other. This is true for both sides and why the situation is so intractable.

 

[S.A.M.]

Lucy:

Why don't you look at what Israel does block and justify the blockade? The Israelis are the occupation. In contravention of the fourth Geneva convention, they have transported people from occupied territories and moved Jews from foreign lands into land settled by native non-Jews. Its like Germans throwing Jews in the oven abd claiming to defend themselves. When your basic action is immoral and illegal, there is just no excuse or justification that it is defence.

Israelis are currently trying to recoup their image through PR, but none of them are asking themselves why they are defending the seige of 1.5 million non-Jews on their own land. A man who breaks into a house cannot shoot everyone who lives there and claim self defense, not even if they pick up baseball bats and kitchen knives when they see him coming in with guns. They live there. He is the intruder.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

My point, Lucy, that you cannot demand democracy and then reject it when the side you wanted to win, does not win.

Israel would do more damage to Hamas if they lifted the blockade and stopped the settlements and allowed the Palestinians the freedoms they deserve. The blockade, the attacks each time some retard fires a rocket over the border, denying them their basic human rights, disrespecting them as human beings.. that only makes Hamas stronger.

When children cannot go to school or do not have a roof over their heads because Israel destroyed it and won't allow the materials in to rebuild, that empowers Hamas. If a Palestinian so much as farts in Israel's direction at the moment, whether that individual is with Hamas or not, then Hamas is blamed. Hamas will not change their charter or recognise a State that is starving its people and denying them their right to exist as human beings.

Well it is a contradiction but its done all the time. Go to N.Korea on a propaganda tour and everyone you meet simply LOVES their leader and believes all their ills are due to the Americans. They also blame the want in their country on US and UN sanctions. There were nations that decided not to support the Palestinians directly when they voted for Hamas, so the fact that they were 'democratically' elected doesn't mean much if the people they voted for are seen as a terrorist organization. The embargo isn't meant to stop children from going to school that is a consequence. Its a military siege Bells, an age old tactic and its not supposed to be comfortable. Hamas can perhaps become more popular among their people but it doesn't make them stronger politically. They have yet to clean up their act enough to be taken seriously in a global setting. They are fighting a major military power with military means, they cannot engage like that and expect to make any progress or be seen as non violent. Israel is doing what all major powers do when they are threatened. Just take a look at what the US went about doing after 9/11. I think you know what I mean. These countries have big feet and it stomps on the good and bad alike. The whole situation there is beginning to remind me of northern ireland more and more all the time. Its just that Hamas didn't have a savvy representative like Gerry Adams at the helm.

 

[S.A.M.]

Also I find it really bizarre that people think Israel has a right to blockade Gaza when it imports billions of dollars worth of weapons from the United States and uses them against unarmed Palestinians. Where is the blockade of Israel?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Lucy:

Why don't you look at what Israel does block and justify the blockade? The Israelis are the occupation. In contravention of the fourth Geneva convention, they have transported people from occupied territories and moved Jews from foreign lands into land settled by native non-Jews. Its like Germans throwing Jews in the oven abd claiming to defend themselves. When your basic action is immoral and illegal, there is just no excuse or justification that it is defence.

Israelis are currently trying to recoup their image through PR, but none of them are asking themselves why they are defending the seige of 1.5 million non-Jews on their own land. A man who breaks into a house cannot shoot everyone who lives there and claim self defense, not even if they pick up baseball bats and kitchen knives when they see him coming in with guns. They live there. He is the intruder.

I know Sam the problem is that because there has been terrorist actions against Israel it justifies a strong Israeli response, it gives them an excuse. Understand? How are you going to penalize Israel and call it an occupation when you have precedence of the same actions being taken by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan? Didn't you also see that as an occupation? 9/11 gave them a long leash to behave just as they did, now Israel is using that same leash its just beginning to tighten on them as they see its limitations. Look at how sieges have been carried out historically, they are meant to be uncomfortable for the population at large. Israeli embargo is no different than what the entire international community did to Iraq! In that sense Netanyahu is right when he calls the West hypocrites its just he's using the right description for the wrong instance.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Also I find it really bizarre that people think Israel has a right to blockade Gaza when it imports billions of dollars worth of weapons from the United States and uses them against unarmed Palestinians. Where is the blockade of Israel?

There is no blockade for Israel nor will there be one. It wouldn't make any difference anyway, they have enough arsenal to fight two full on wars at once. Israel is the state and will exercise the rights of a state and the palestinians don't have a state. Israel controls the borders and the palestinians don't so they are the ones who will decide when and how the blockade ends.

I mean do you have any suggestions?:shrug:

 

[nirakar]

I see what you did there...

No seriously though... that's the big reason why the Israeli's have an embargo/blockade up... they don't want materials for bombs like that getting through, and can you really blame them?

That is why Israel blockaded bombs, it is not why Israel blockades pencils.

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no blockade for Israel nor will there be one...I mean do you have any suggestions?:shrug:

I come from a country where the Indians were once where the Palestinians are today, defenceless, occupied and not good enough to feed even when dropping dead from starvation while growing enough to feed all who lived there.

I think it is unrealistic that you can kick a man out of his home, shoot his children, starve his family, allow his parents to die for lack of medical care, let his wife suffer labour at a checkpoint, destroy his livelihood, security and peace and then complain when he fights back.

The man is not born who will not fight back in such a situation. Who will not defend his home, his family, his children. If there is such a man, he is not much of one.

My suggestions? Don't put band aid on the situation, you cannot ignore the basic human rights of an oppressed human being and expect that they will cooperate. The cure is to attend to the source. Creating a Jewish state in a land where only 7% of the natives were Jews, is wrong.

 

[Black Jack]

Israel could have seized those vessels without taking any lives.

That was the idea actually. Then SHTF and things went wrong. The people on board didn't have to react violently to the drop team, but they did. They didn't have to ignore the radio transmissions, but they did.

It's like...
"So they told the ship to turn around, or redirect?"
"Yeah."
"... and they didn't?"
"Nope."
"So they boarded the ship because the people on board were ignoring them?"
"Uh-huh."
"And the people on board decided to attack armed government agents with chairs and metal pipes?"
"A-yup."
"... So where does the surprise come in?"

Like I've said, boarding parties aren't an uncommon thing in the maritime world... it happens ALL the time, and usually without the loss of life, especially when it's a government task force coming aboard to redirect a ship to their own port because of an embargo/blockade.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

That was the idea actually. Then SHTF and things went wrong. The people on board didn't have to react violently to the drop team, but they did. They didn't have to ignore the radio transmissions, but they did.

It's like...
"So they told the ship to turn around, or redirect?"
"Yeah."
"... and they didn't?"
"Nope."
"So they boarded the ship because the people on board were ignoring them?"
"Uh-huh."
"And the people on board decided to attack armed government agents with chairs and metal pipes?"
"A-yup."
"... So where does the surprise come in?"

Like I've said, boarding parties aren't an uncommon thing in the maritime world... it happens ALL the time, and usually without the loss of life, especially when it's a government task force coming aboard to redirect a ship to their own port because of an embargo/blockade.

Okay but don't you think that the people on board knew it would be risky? If you look at how Israel has behaved in these situations in the past they could have had Carter and Desmond Tutu on board and they would have still would have stopped the vessels by any means necessary. I am surprised though, the IDF are seasoned, they shouldn't have made any mistakes. Next time they should just call in the SAS

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

My suggestions? Don't put band aid on the situation, you cannot ignore the basic human rights of an oppressed human being and expect that they will cooperate. The cure is to attend to the source. Creating a Jewish state in a land where only 7% of the natives were Jews, is wrong.

No, I mean what exactly should all parties involved actually do. The cry of oppression blah blah blah doesn't mean very much, sounds nice but there are other factors outside of sentiment that move political engines. Reality #1 Creating Israel may have been 'wrong' but it is done an it won't be undone. So now what?

Name one nation, just one, that has ever been dismantled to appease a population that has lost its land? Just one.

 

[Mr.Spock]

I come from a country where the Indians were once where the Palestinians are today

you mean this country?

The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent led to widespread carnage because Muslims regarded the Hindus as infidels and therefore slaughtered and converted millions of Hindus. Will Durant argued in his 1935 book "The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage"

 

[pjdude1219]

Where are the pictures of food, clothes medicine, generators etc.? Everyone is only showing pictures of toys. Toys are not that relevant during a blockade, especially if you only get in once you would need to make it count with the majority of the stock being essentials.

?? right Israel going to let pictures that mess up their spin out.