Would you pursue a romantic relationship with someone who has been sexually abused?
- Thread starter water
- Start date
devils_reject
Registered Senior Member
I will cajole her to tell me, its better for her emotionaly, and you as well since it may as well be her father that raped her or some shit like that. But to be honest the best thing is to stay away unless you don't have enough emotional luggage yourself.
Jenyar,
And your response isn't?
If things were right, this communication would never take place.
They are rhetorical questions. The classical weapons of broads and psychopaths!
(This isn't funny.)
Only ego-monsters fall for such things. This is how one finds them out.
Whatever I would say or do, you would criticize it, tear it apart, analyze it. I'm not allowed to have an opinion next to you. Communication with you is a race, a competition of who is going to make the sharper arguments, who is going to outsmarten whom, who is going to prove the other wrong, an essay. I always had to be ready for a blow. A continuation of Sciforums, only a bit more polite. I hate philosophical friendship so.
I do think that no matter how badly I behaved, I don't deserve to be picked at like you did it.
Go ahead. If the accusation is false, then this is the other person's problem -- the one who made the accusation. Accusations are always false anyway.
If you start digging into them, have a fight, have the parties get tired of fighting, then you eventually come to general problems of cognition and philosophy, and that is really an awful way to have a personal communication.
What would Jesus do ... Answer with something which may not seem directly on topic, but which eventually reveals some deeper truth.
No.
By *Jesus'* words, yes, I would benefit. But apparently, I'm not worthy of those.
(Why on earth can't people behave like Jesus to me? It would really make things easier.)
It is obvious. But if I state my argument shortly, then I get told I am being "graphic", and it sets off a line of comments made from disgust. And if I want to account for all the possible implications, it does take a book.
How could it villainize them?! Could it be that they *let* it?
And whom on earth was he defending himself from? Me? What could I possibly do to him? Hurt his pride, maybe. Or is he, too, conditioned by trauma, where anything reminding of the trauma triggers intense stress?
Well, if you paint me as a monster, a monster you will see.
But enough of this. I need a break.
And your response isn't?
If things were right, this communication would never take place.
They are rhetorical questions. The classical weapons of broads and psychopaths!
(This isn't funny.)
Only ego-monsters fall for such things. This is how one finds them out.
Whatever I would say or do, you would criticize it, tear it apart, analyze it. I'm not allowed to have an opinion next to you. Communication with you is a race, a competition of who is going to make the sharper arguments, who is going to outsmarten whom, who is going to prove the other wrong, an essay. I always had to be ready for a blow. A continuation of Sciforums, only a bit more polite. I hate philosophical friendship so.
I do think that no matter how badly I behaved, I don't deserve to be picked at like you did it.
Go ahead. If the accusation is false, then this is the other person's problem -- the one who made the accusation. Accusations are always false anyway.
If you start digging into them, have a fight, have the parties get tired of fighting, then you eventually come to general problems of cognition and philosophy, and that is really an awful way to have a personal communication.
What would Jesus do ... Answer with something which may not seem directly on topic, but which eventually reveals some deeper truth.
No.
By *Jesus'* words, yes, I would benefit. But apparently, I'm not worthy of those.
(Why on earth can't people behave like Jesus to me? It would really make things easier.)
It is obvious. But if I state my argument shortly, then I get told I am being "graphic", and it sets off a line of comments made from disgust. And if I want to account for all the possible implications, it does take a book.
How could it villainize them?! Could it be that they *let* it?
And whom on earth was he defending himself from? Me? What could I possibly do to him? Hurt his pride, maybe. Or is he, too, conditioned by trauma, where anything reminding of the trauma triggers intense stress?
Well, if you paint me as a monster, a monster you will see.
But enough of this. I need a break.
Wow, what a collection of words, since I last posted.
I have deliberately restrained myself from participating and decided just to lurk and watch what would develope.
From my experience with abusers and the abused one thing clearly sticks out as being essential to any healing
This is to recognise that it's about power, or more importantly about empowering a victim to regain controil of their own lives. It is not about adding to the abuse by applying pressure on teh victim to accept what she or he may percieve as just more abuse [ the taking away of their power of attorney over their lives]
The thing to realise is that it is the nature of abuse to reduce the self esteem of the victim. By violating a persons sense of self identity and confidence in knowing who is in charge of his or her life.
The abuse victim is fighting for the return of self possession and will necessarilly fend off any attempts by others, especially helpers, when they attempt to apply pressure and in the guise of offering empowerment remove that power even more so.
It is true that an abuse victim has because of the crime committed against them, a heightened sense of self proprietry and any attempt to help can be seen as an attack on what little sense of self ownership is left invokng angry and defensive responses.
Usually faith in human kinds altruism is lost and every one becomes a target of suspicion and accusations of ulteria motive. This is necessary as the abuse victim in the throws of suffering an inferiority complex attempts to restore not only her faith in teh good will of people but also her faith in her oiwn self esteem.
This is why it can be extremely hard to have a relationship of any romantic nature with an abuse victim. Not because they are considered "filthy or damaged goods" by the helper but because they consider themselves to be filthy and damaged goods.
Once faith in the goodwill of persons has been diminished because of some "arse holes" abuse it can be extremely difficult to restore. [ Trust in goodwill has to be earned]
So the difficulty in having a relationship is in the fact that there are many other people who have a more balanced perspective on the issue of good will to choose from and thus the victim of abuse fails yet again under the pressure of competition.
It is however amazing how some persons of extreme abuse can with time and patient caring rise not only to the level of self empowerment they had before but way beyond to a level that is inspirational to others.
What appears to be happening with this thread is that Water is under pressure to agree, and to do so in her eyes only diminishes her sense of self proprietry.
Light, Jenya and even this response of mine are applying pressure that Water is recognising as a pseudo abuse being added to the abuse she has already endured.
The other thing to consider is that an abuse victim [ which we are all sufferers of in some way] needs to be able to succeed on their own two feet and any attempt to take away their need to self determine their outcomes is deemed as taking away even more power.
This is obvously why an abuse victim is so determined to fight their own battles, their own way, so that in the end they achieved self ownership of their journey and resultant self esteem.
Thus to have a romantic relationship with such challenged person is only possible if next to zero pressure is applied and advice only given whan asked for.
It takes very special people to be successful in these circumstances.
So Water, you have the power, you have the journey, go for it...
I have deliberately restrained myself from participating and decided just to lurk and watch what would develope.
From my experience with abusers and the abused one thing clearly sticks out as being essential to any healing
This is to recognise that it's about power, or more importantly about empowering a victim to regain controil of their own lives. It is not about adding to the abuse by applying pressure on teh victim to accept what she or he may percieve as just more abuse [ the taking away of their power of attorney over their lives]
The thing to realise is that it is the nature of abuse to reduce the self esteem of the victim. By violating a persons sense of self identity and confidence in knowing who is in charge of his or her life.
The abuse victim is fighting for the return of self possession and will necessarilly fend off any attempts by others, especially helpers, when they attempt to apply pressure and in the guise of offering empowerment remove that power even more so.
It is true that an abuse victim has because of the crime committed against them, a heightened sense of self proprietry and any attempt to help can be seen as an attack on what little sense of self ownership is left invokng angry and defensive responses.
Usually faith in human kinds altruism is lost and every one becomes a target of suspicion and accusations of ulteria motive. This is necessary as the abuse victim in the throws of suffering an inferiority complex attempts to restore not only her faith in teh good will of people but also her faith in her oiwn self esteem.
This is why it can be extremely hard to have a relationship of any romantic nature with an abuse victim. Not because they are considered "filthy or damaged goods" by the helper but because they consider themselves to be filthy and damaged goods.
Once faith in the goodwill of persons has been diminished because of some "arse holes" abuse it can be extremely difficult to restore. [ Trust in goodwill has to be earned]
So the difficulty in having a relationship is in the fact that there are many other people who have a more balanced perspective on the issue of good will to choose from and thus the victim of abuse fails yet again under the pressure of competition.
It is however amazing how some persons of extreme abuse can with time and patient caring rise not only to the level of self empowerment they had before but way beyond to a level that is inspirational to others.
What appears to be happening with this thread is that Water is under pressure to agree, and to do so in her eyes only diminishes her sense of self proprietry.
Light, Jenya and even this response of mine are applying pressure that Water is recognising as a pseudo abuse being added to the abuse she has already endured.
The other thing to consider is that an abuse victim [ which we are all sufferers of in some way] needs to be able to succeed on their own two feet and any attempt to take away their need to self determine their outcomes is deemed as taking away even more power.
This is obvously why an abuse victim is so determined to fight their own battles, their own way, so that in the end they achieved self ownership of their journey and resultant self esteem.
Thus to have a romantic relationship with such challenged person is only possible if next to zero pressure is applied and advice only given whan asked for.
It takes very special people to be successful in these circumstances.
So Water, you have the power, you have the journey, go for it...
Last edited:
'Ole Blue eyes [Frank Sinatra] sang a famous song "My way" and I believe this is to be so relevant.
The abuse victim must to be ultimately successful, travel their own journey, their way, so that at the end of the day they can claim ownership of their success.
Unfortunately dissagreement seems to be the constant theme of their lives until they feel safe in agreement.
By disagreeing we are only flexing our self determination muscles. How often do we all sit back and wonder in reflection why we have disagreed so strongly when in fact we actually do agree in the main?
The abuse victim must to be ultimately successful, travel their own journey, their way, so that at the end of the day they can claim ownership of their success.
Unfortunately dissagreement seems to be the constant theme of their lives until they feel safe in agreement.
By disagreeing we are only flexing our self determination muscles. How often do we all sit back and wonder in reflection why we have disagreed so strongly when in fact we actually do agree in the main?
Last edited:
My way
And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, I’ll say it clear,
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.
I’ve lived a life that’s full.
I’ve traveled each and ev’ry highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.
Regrets, I’ve had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.
I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.
Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.
I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried.
I’ve had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.
To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
No, oh no not me,
I did it my way.
For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!
And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, I’ll say it clear,
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.
I’ve lived a life that’s full.
I’ve traveled each and ev’ry highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.
Regrets, I’ve had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.
I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.
Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.
I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried.
I’ve had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.
To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
No, oh no not me,
I did it my way.
For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!
It's 3 in the morning as I am reading this, I couldn't sleep.
QQ, the first thing that comes to mind as I am reading your response is that what you are saying is an attempt to defend me and to enable my negative behaviour even further. I have the fear that Light or someone like him would come and scold you, saying you are encouraging me to be weak and to just drift on, pushing everyone away.
A man once told me he loved me, but that he won't marry me. In my opinion, that was absurd, as at that point in the relationship, it was much too early to speak of anything about marriage, either for or against. Unless, of course, it was so obvious to him that I am someone whom he didn't want. He insisted on wanting to be friends though -- but I never understood why he wanted to be friends, if it is so obvious how bad I am.
He then spend the next 9 months or so analyzing me at every moment, analyzing my every move, criticizing me, evaluating me, probing into every opinion and argument I'd make -- and all this analyzing and criticizing came across as him explaining and justifying his decision for not pursuing a romantic relationship. It was all like "Because you [enter analysis, criticism, evaluation of me], I have decided the way I have about you." As one of my problems is a great fear of rejection, of course I was afraid to disagree with him or stand up for myself in any way. Except in small, unimportant things, I wouldn't dare to speak my mind, except in fits, which left me feeling guilty. This kind of ill communication made me depressed, physically ill, drained the last bit of energy I had possessed -- but of course I was afraid to say how I felt, as he also said that I should not let feelings get in the way. He then gave me an example of another woman, whom he was once romantically interested in and she in him, but who was so wonderful to not let feelings get in the way of their friendship.
In those nine months, I was afraid to do anything on my own about myself, I was completely paralyzed and bogged down into a mental bunker. I was feeling guilty for every attempt of standing up for myself and asking him to stop analyzing me. He was in charge of me, of course, since he had such compelling arguments against me -- how could I disagree! He was perfectly right! And I was supposed to consider this love and friendship ... It was a something where he would always win, and I would always lose, it couldn't possibly be any other way.
I know he meant well, but it just didn't come across that way. I don't have the strength to continually fight with him for my rights in that relationship.
So what do you think I should do about that relationship?
QQ, the first thing that comes to mind as I am reading your response is that what you are saying is an attempt to defend me and to enable my negative behaviour even further. I have the fear that Light or someone like him would come and scold you, saying you are encouraging me to be weak and to just drift on, pushing everyone away.
A man once told me he loved me, but that he won't marry me. In my opinion, that was absurd, as at that point in the relationship, it was much too early to speak of anything about marriage, either for or against. Unless, of course, it was so obvious to him that I am someone whom he didn't want. He insisted on wanting to be friends though -- but I never understood why he wanted to be friends, if it is so obvious how bad I am.
He then spend the next 9 months or so analyzing me at every moment, analyzing my every move, criticizing me, evaluating me, probing into every opinion and argument I'd make -- and all this analyzing and criticizing came across as him explaining and justifying his decision for not pursuing a romantic relationship. It was all like "Because you [enter analysis, criticism, evaluation of me], I have decided the way I have about you." As one of my problems is a great fear of rejection, of course I was afraid to disagree with him or stand up for myself in any way. Except in small, unimportant things, I wouldn't dare to speak my mind, except in fits, which left me feeling guilty. This kind of ill communication made me depressed, physically ill, drained the last bit of energy I had possessed -- but of course I was afraid to say how I felt, as he also said that I should not let feelings get in the way. He then gave me an example of another woman, whom he was once romantically interested in and she in him, but who was so wonderful to not let feelings get in the way of their friendship.
In those nine months, I was afraid to do anything on my own about myself, I was completely paralyzed and bogged down into a mental bunker. I was feeling guilty for every attempt of standing up for myself and asking him to stop analyzing me. He was in charge of me, of course, since he had such compelling arguments against me -- how could I disagree! He was perfectly right! And I was supposed to consider this love and friendship ... It was a something where he would always win, and I would always lose, it couldn't possibly be any other way.
I know he meant well, but it just didn't come across that way. I don't have the strength to continually fight with him for my rights in that relationship.
So what do you think I should do about that relationship?
Quantum Quack said:
I've agreed many times, and stated so. How many times do people express their agreement with me? They might agree, but they don't state it. So how am I to know? Such feedback of theirs looks like they only have something to say when they don't agree, and the only things they are willing to state is disagreements. In my opinion, this is not good communication.
Fabulous post Water, I'll write a response later [ after you get your sleep]water said:
I thought I'd say this because you may be waiting for my post....
I will defend you right to self determination yes.....
I don't consider you to be weak. After all it is you that is confronting your issues. If you were sitting in a room somewhere staring at the wall and blaming every one else my opinion would no doubt be different. You are however pro-active in your quest and this alone is deserving of respect.
OK,...the first thing that came to mind when I read your post was about this comment:
I do understand the usual use of these words and what they normally imply but I am also aware of the fact that it is "feelings" that make a friendship. It is your feelings that need to heal after all.
If you are not able to express your feelings and only able to express your compliant intellect you are in an abusive relationship. Certainly the distinction is consideraly more subtle than most but I would consider it to be still a part of the abuse cycle.
You have asked me to tell you what I think you should do about this relationship.
I have no idea as I have never been in your situation. Fortunately I realised earlier in my life that if I have to defend being who I am, I am in a situation of abuse.
So I have been able to avoid this type of relationship.
You are actually asking me to participate in your abuse with this question as you already know the answer to it.
I do understand the usual use of these words and what they normally imply but I am also aware of the fact that it is "feelings" that make a friendship. It is your feelings that need to heal after all.
If you are not able to express your feelings and only able to express your compliant intellect you are in an abusive relationship. Certainly the distinction is consideraly more subtle than most but I would consider it to be still a part of the abuse cycle.
You have asked me to tell you what I think you should do about this relationship.
I have no idea as I have never been in your situation. Fortunately I realised earlier in my life that if I have to defend being who I am, I am in a situation of abuse.
So I have been able to avoid this type of relationship.
You are actually asking me to participate in your abuse with this question as you already know the answer to it.
water said:
Is this post an expression of your feelings or not?
It is obviously to me an expression of your feelings and one your friend needs to read.
Unfortunately Water, a hard cold fact of life is that not many people, especially men can understand the notion of empowerment. It is sad, to me any way, however they do exist out there. Clearly a minority.
What this means is that for many people they simply must go it alone and live in the hope that possibly they may meet someone that empowers their self determination and not oppress it.
Last edited:
water said:
If you are unable to express yourself then he is being friendly with a delusion rather than being freindly with you. So in reality there is no real relationship to finish except one of delusion.
It comes down to whether you can be who you are and if you can't then who are you?
So I would ask myself the question about how real is the relationship?
wow. not one person here mentioned the abuser at all.
it seems that it is just accepted.
the person abused only wants REVENGE. To right that wrong.
The abuser had a mental problem in the first place and the
victim has to deal with the abusers "punishment" and that really
sucks. You can be in a lovely relationship with someone who WAS
abused but you cannot be in a relationship with an ABUSER.
Some men can't get "love" or a "relationship" the natural way
and they have to be a sneaky bastard and destroy the object
of their affection to satisfy the fiend inside of them.
The abuser is the LOSER. not his unwilling victim.
it seems that it is just accepted.
the person abused only wants REVENGE. To right that wrong.
The abuser had a mental problem in the first place and the
victim has to deal with the abusers "punishment" and that really
sucks. You can be in a lovely relationship with someone who WAS
abused but you cannot be in a relationship with an ABUSER.
Some men can't get "love" or a "relationship" the natural way
and they have to be a sneaky bastard and destroy the object
of their affection to satisfy the fiend inside of them.
The abuser is the LOSER. not his unwilling victim.
Quantum Quack said:
Agreed.
It is mostly virtual. It is a matter of how much imagination I manage to muster up to believe he is what he says and to believe that what he does is what he says he does.
When I'd say we're not friends, he'd disagree, and when I'd say we're not close, he'd disagree. I sometimes felt like I was talking to a robot; a capable one, but still a robot.
water said:
The operative word in all this is "WE"
What is 'tis word called "we"?
Living a lie is by it's very nature tiring and energy consuming. To live the truth is often frightening but less exhausting. A lie can rarely be sustained for long periods where as the truth is almost self suficient.
In the end it comes down to economics. Is it worth the effort.....can the energy be better invested etc etc.....you only have so much energy and time, what is the most economical way to use them?
Being true to yourself and by default this means being true to others is the most economical way. And maybe this leads to the crux of the issue and that is a question of self honesty and the integrity to look after your own best interests. Having integrity towards self is all part of the healing process.
sorry this is starting to sound like a lecture on self esteem which I am sure you have heard so many times before.
Being true to yourself is sometimes the hardest of things to actually do, not just talk and think but actually do.....the Buddhist's sometimes refer to "Right seeing, right thinking and therefore right acting."
Where by you carry your self integrity out into the world in all your thoughts and activities. not easy but worth the effort....certainly better than investing in a lie....or delusion.