Would you pursue a romantic relationship with someone who has been sexually abused?

Would you pursue a romantic relationship with someone who has been sexually abused?

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 89.1%
  • No

    Votes: 5 10.9%

  • Total voters
    46
QQ,


Thank you so much for your input!

I am afraid he would consider me selfish. I think I understand the Eightfold Path, and I find those instructions very useful. But as soon as I try to apply them for this relationship, I feel empowered, but I also see how much there is wrong, and that I mostly feel just pity for this man.
 
QQ,

Very good posts. I think this will be a turning point in the discussion. It is true that victims (or victimized people) have to be empowered. But how to go about this "empowerment"? Someone can't give them this "power", since it immediately implies a transference from "someone with power" to "someone without power" - which is the nature of disempowerment in the first place.

The alternative must be to, somehow, help a person to realize that they have everything they need to effect change in their own lives. That they already have the power. "Empowerment" is then not a transference of power, but just an affirmation - a pair of glasses that are passed with the words, "here, see for yourself". You set a good example in your post.

* * *​

Water,

The feelings you expressed are what you've expressed before. I hope the person answered by recognizing those feelings, and assured you that they're valid - that your expectations of what love and friendship should look and feel like are valid and not to be ashamed of. Like QQ said: those feelings, and the desire to express them, show strength - not weakness. It shows what you want, it sets standards - for yourself and those who have to do with you. These are the things you won't compromise on, and what nobody may ask you to compromise on.

I will try to describe the other side of the story. The other person, other people, also have feelings. There are no rules saying they should be better at dealing with them than you are. Maybe those feelings - and knowing their limits - can prompt them to make clear from early on what their boundaries would be. I doubt that this person considered your feelings, and his own, something to suppress in order not to step on toes. Only ghosts and illusions never step on toes. But real people do, especially if they have to dance together.

People can be villainized, whether they allow it or not. The villainization doesn't occur in their minds, but in their accuser's. If they don't allow it, they will stand up and assert themselves, and they may be resented for this - "painted as monsters and seen as monsters". If they don't defend their integrity, they must repress those feelings, and the truth. They have been called villains or monsters, but in order not to be villainized they must allow themselves to be villainized? Can you see that other people may have the same dilemma as you?

What would Jesus do? He said, "turn the other cheek"; you can allow yourself to be villainized if you are innocent - but this is obviously hard to do, because it asks us to forgive in advance, not to resent our accusers, in short: not to make the accusation true. That's because our character is the answer to any accusation, and no amount of words can invalidate what it says of us. And that's why Jesus' teaching didn't stop with those words, but started with them. There is much we can do about our character, to protect it, and to empower it.

Resentment means something has not been forgiven, that something is purposely kept as an obstacle to reconciliation. It's like a solution that is being witheld, and if one person needs that solution, it becomes a bargaining chip, a means of emotional blackmail. If you said you're not friends with someone, then that's the way it is. If you're not close to someone, they're can't be close to you. The solution - if it is desired - is to set the terms necessary for reconciliation. Those terms are then not resentment, but a declaration of someone's rights - so instead of fighting against them for your rights, you may simply state your rights in response.

And if you don't make them negotiable, if you don't accept deadlines, selfish suggestions or manipulation, if you don't compromise on who you are and wish to be, you won't be a delusion, like QQ said. You have this freedom. By simply being honest, admitting mistakes and clarifying intentions, you will also avoid delusions. You will establish a clear identity and transparency of character that would make it possible to enter into relationships of your choice, with people you respect. And it will be possible for others to make choices about their relationship with you, choices that won't reflect on you, but on themselves - you'll know who you are, independently of anyone, because you will have established a (dynamic, of course) 1:1 image of yourself. You will be empowered.

*EDIT* Pity is an introspective emotion, something addressed to and felt by oneself, not by the recipient. That's why people who are pitied never see anything of it (or they see only inaction), while people who are cared for do.
 
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How does one declare one's rights without intimidating the other person who is expected to respect those rights?

Also, how to avoid the sense that if I state my rights, this then announces that I don't really care about the other person?
 
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water said:
How does one declare one's rights without intimidating the other person who is expected to respect those rights?

Also, how to avoid the sense that if I state my rights, this then announces that I don't really care about the other person?
I would also like to know.
 
water said:
How does one declare one's rights without intimidating the other person who is expected to respect those rights?

Why does one have to "declare" their "rights" in the first place? Unless, of course, the other person has ALREADY shown that they DON'T respect what the first person thinks/feels are their "rights"?

I'd also like y'all to consider carefully just where any of those "rights" came from in the first place. As I see it, "rights" are bestowed upon citizens by the government (even if that's a tribal council!). If something is "given", can't it also be taken away?

water said:
Also, how to avoid the sense that if I state my rights, this then announces that I don't really care about the other person?

Why should your "rights" indicate that you don't care for another person? I don't think I fully understand your question. It seems to me that, in the question, your "rights" are in conflict with the other person's "rights"??? Is that how you meant it?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Why does one have to "declare" their "rights" in the first place? Unless, of course, the other person has ALREADY shown that they DON'T respect what the first person thinks/feels are their "rights"?

I'd also like y'all to consider carefully just where any of those "rights" came from in the first place. As I see it, "rights" are bestowed upon citizens by the government (even if that's a tribal council!). If something is "given", can't it also be taken away?

Why should your "rights" indicate that you don't care for another person? I don't think I fully understand your question. It seems to me that, in the question, your "rights" are in conflict with the other person's "rights"??? Is that how you meant it?

In relationship counseling, you can get instructions that look like this, for example:


1. I have the right to expect a nurturing environment in my relationships.

I deserve an environment with clearly defined and enforced limits and boundaries so that I do not get lost or used up in it. I deserve to have respect and latitude to be an individual in relationships so that I can retain my individuality and personhood. I deserve to have an environment with my relationship partners, which has structure so that I know what are our mutual expectations and obligations. I deserve to have freedom within the established structure so that I am not penned in or limited from being the person who I am. I deserve to maintain open, honest and feelings based communication with my relationship partners, family, friends, support system and recovery colleagues, so that I can receive feedback if I am falling into a "hooked" relationship with my relationship partners, in which I am losing all sense of personal boundaries.



2. I have the right to be self-nurturing in relationships.

I deserve to love myself unconditionally. I deserve to take care of my own intellectual, emotional and physical needs with no need to become dependent on my relationship partners to meet these needs for me. I deserve to accept myself as a unique person who is different and separate from my partners in my relationships. I deserve and need to be open and honest with myself so that I am constantly in touch with my feelings and emotions so that I do not slip into fantasy or delusion about what is happening in my relationships. I have the need to be open to my inner voice which is the source of my instincts and intuitions so that I can hear the Alarm Bell if my relationships are becoming unhealthy for me.



3. I have the right to expect to be nurtured by my relationship partners.

I deserve unconditional love and acceptance from my relationship partners. I deserve to receive warmth, caring and affection from my partners. I deserve to be accepted as the unique individual I am in relationship. I deserve good open and honest communication with my partners. I deserve to have open and straight forward problem solving with my relationship partners so that all issues which come up can be handled in healthy, logical, emotional and physical ways.


4. I have the right to expect my relationships to support my healthy self-esteem.

I have a right to expect that my relationships will be supportive of me so that I can grow in my self-worth, self-concept and optimism. I have a right to expect to become a more productive person in my relationships. I have a right to become a better creative problem solver and experience improved coping skills in relationships. I have a right to expect respect for my leadership capabilities by my partners. I have a right to expect that my self-deservedness and self-confidence will grow in relationships. I have a right to expect that I will grow in altruism and personal responsibility taking in my relationships.

While I think that this is a bit much, it does make sense, it is what people ideally seek to establish. But how does one state such things without sounding all puffed up and "You must provide this for me! Or else!" -?
 
Water, just 'cause someone writes or speaks about "rights", that does NOT make them "rights". One can expect any-fuckin'-thing that they want in a relationship, but that doesn't mean they're gonna' get 'em .....and THAT is what a "relationship" really is once you get over the idealistic bullshit and confront the reality of a partnership with another human being.

Compromise and diplomacy is the basic key to a good relationship, but it ain't easy and the "rules" ain't written down in some psycho-babble website or instruction manual. If you want to be with that person, then you'll have to work out the ways to compromise to get him/her. And please be aware that it's all different with each and every person with whom you wish a relationship - be it love or simply friendship. If you and/or they can't compromise, you ain't got a relationship. Give it up and move on.

Baron Max
 
Jenyar,
You also have made a good posting.

Jenyar said:
QQ,

Very good posts. I think this will be a turning point in the discussion. It is true that victims (or victimized people) have to be empowered. But how to go about this "empowerment"? Someone can't give them this "power", since it immediately implies a transference from "someone with power" to "someone without power" - which is the nature of disempowerment in the first place.

The alternative must be to, somehow, help a person to realize that they have everything they need to effect change in their own lives. That they already have the power. "Empowerment" is then not a transference of power, but just an affirmation - a pair of glasses that are passed with the words, "here, see for yourself". You set a good example in your post.

* * *​
I would go a little further in this discourse and suggest that empowerment does not require a giving of power as the person already has the power but more a case of removing obstacles so that power is not frustrated.

An example could be when designing a new building that out of landscape necessity requires a step at the enterance to facilitate access to the building. The designer has a simple decision to make, does he design in a small ramp or does he design a step. The difference in cost is truely insignificant. However the benefit of a ramp is enormous to wheel chair bound or other wise disabled persons.

The designer has the ability to empower disabled persons by removing uneccessary frustrations to their use of power.
Also in doing so he increases patronage to his building at no extra expense to either design asthetics or material costs.

Another example would be to purchase a box of crayons or pencils for a young child, thus providing the tools for the child to express him/herself, giving the child the ability to use his / her creativity thus empowering the childs power of imagination and learning.
No, it is not giving power that it is about but more about facilitating a persons pre-existing power by removing obstacles and reducing frustration.

In a truely nuturing relationship it is the individuals power that is the focus of each partner. To allow and facilitate the individuals personal growth with out actually leading the person but inspiring self leadership, a power that we all have.

I personally believe that to learn how to empower people [ in this context] is the greatest leadership ability a person can learn. This is also what defines good government from not so good government, how they empower their electorate is what makes for a good measuring stick as to the benefit of their governance.

Another example that I feel is also relevant is a more personal one.

When I married my wife just over 12 months ago, we had a little dilemma. She is from Brazil and not only was her English skills very challenged she was also from a very strict Roman Catholic religious background.

Now the question came up as to whether we should be married here in Australia in the Roman Cathiolic church. For some people this is not all that much of an issue but for my wife this was a critical part of her decision to marry me. Unfortunately I could not in good conscious get married in the church so our marriage was performed under the stars in a public service of no religious denomination. [She was prepared to marry me regardless of her 55 years of religious discipline]

However as time has passed since my wife has become more and more anxcious about the issue and had terribile problems with not being able to go to communion and felt ostracised from the church that has nurtured her philosophical self all her life. It is within her culture [ tradition] that when a woman married outside the Church she must, when going to church, sit at the stalls at the back and observe communion and not participate in it. It never occurred to her that in Australia things were slightly different.

I suggested that she talk to her local priest and explain her dilemma of conscience. [ A simple empowerment for me to offer but from her cultural background one that is necessary as she could not go with out my suggesting it either - ahhh such is the problems of cultural diversity hey?]

What happened was truely amazing to both her and me. The priest simply stated that whilst he can not condone her communion as an agent of the Pope he could not and would not stop her communion if this is what she desired to do. In other words he empowered my wife to continue her "religious" relationship with God even though the church could not sanctify her actions. He, I believe has acted with great wisdom in a question of serious vexation for the church. My wife has since recieved her communion and is satisfied in her quest.

The Church has maintained a relationship in a difficult vexation. I have a happier wife and all have benefited simply because the priiests wisdom was focussed on facilitation and inclusion rather than obstructionalism and exclusion. Thus he has empowered my wife to find her niche in her religious devotion.

So empowerment is in itself an empowering issue.
 
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water said:
In relationship counseling, you can get instructions that look like this, for example:




While I think that this is a bit much, it does make sense, it is what people ideally seek to establish. But how does one state such things without sounding all puffed up and "You must provide this for me! Or else!" -?
Water, of course the "cut and paste" does seem to be all so fluffy and idealistic. Well.....it's supposed to be.

The question though is how to work towards such ideals whilst living in a community that does not necessarilly show any real interest in such.
For example the issue of Unconditional love is so incredibly hard to fathom it's truth. Yet we all practice it in some way in our lives all the time.
The relationship between a pet and it's provider is one such example of the ideal.

So many persons are living in a state of constant frustration in their relationships and it is no wonder that so many fail.

It is true as Baron has said that compromise is necessary but this does not necessarilly disempower you. Some times compromise can be very empowering.
Though I might add there are some issues that can not be compromised on and those are issues of personal integrity to yourself. [ such as if I got married in the Church and having to lie if I did] in other words at least acknowledge that a compromise is occuring and assess whether that compromise is debilitating or not.

If one reads the articles you posted and apply them to your self in your self relationship you can see how nurturing you can be towards yourself.
 
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Possibly if the word "Right" causes a problem replace it with "Deserve"

So it reads "I deserve to be nurtured and my ambitions deemed as valid......." for example
 
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I might add at this point in our [ including all readers] dialogue that nearly all of my own personal philosophy is premised on the notion that self determination is a lifelong quest. One that starts from our first cries when born into this world and one that is sadly for some is lost as they surcumb to dementia and senility and the physical rigours of older age in later years.

The issue of self determination is a fundamental of all self inspired, self animated life forms. And is intrinsic to notions of free will and self.

As a great people watcher I realised some time ago that this is so strong within people that wars can be fought and civilisations created.

Observing small children one can see their instintive need and desire for self determination, reaching a peak in adolescents [ rebelion and assertion] to a more sedate form in later adult years.

I feel that self determination is what needs to be nurtured and it is with this in mind when I talk of self empowerment or the empowering of others.

By empowering a person to self determine their own lives affords them the greatest freedom. Facilitating creativity. The very creativity that is needed to improvise and navigate our way through life's little and bigger problems.

Self inspired, self willed and self determined individuals with a healthy respect for the self determination of others leads to a society that is not oppressed by the "should-isms" and the "have to - isms" and allows a more "want to - istic" philosophy thus inspiring a more voluntary participation in society and life in general.

Of course self determination can only be measured in this context by degree and never is an absolute achieved. However the greater you ability to self determine your life the more voluntary your life becomes thus self determination automatically equates with freedom, even within the restraints of a social community.

It could be also argued that national self determination is subject of constant vigilance of soveriegn contries. To be able to determine their own national stance etc, is all very fundamental to global health. [ peace]

So it could be said for the world to find it's peace the peoples have to evolve a greater sense of respect for someone elses self determination thus empowering a peaceful co-existance.

For example the USA is attempting to empower the people of Iraq [ certainly on the face of it] but of course their approach means that they have to subjugate elements of the population to do so....which is or was self defeating.....[ another thread and another discussion for sure]

So it is the act of empowering self determination that grants a person the greatest freedom and thus the creativity of that person is enhanced and intellectual, emotional and physical poverty of expression is diminished.

Certainly it is an issue that deserves serious consideration if the world or the individual is ever to achieve a harmonious co-existance.

Water , with regards to your friend possibly a lengthy discussion about the intrinsic nature of self determination would prove beneficial to your relationship?

Jenya,

Would considering the episode of the apple and the tree in Eden as a statement of self determination [ metaphorically ] be of benefit do you think?
 
Baron Max said:
Water, just 'cause someone writes or speaks about "rights", that does NOT make them "rights". One can expect any-fuckin'-thing that they want in a relationship, but that doesn't mean they're gonna' get 'em .....and THAT is what a "relationship" really is once you get over the idealistic bullshit and confront the reality of a partnership with another human being.

Compromise and diplomacy is the basic key to a good relationship, but it ain't easy and the "rules" ain't written down in some psycho-babble website or instruction manual. If you want to be with that person, then you'll have to work out the ways to compromise to get him/her. And please be aware that it's all different with each and every person with whom you wish a relationship - be it love or simply friendship. If you and/or they can't compromise, you ain't got a relationship.

Give it up and move on.

Compromise one what?
What do you think can be an issue of compromise, and what by no means should be an issue of compromise (if one is to keep one's health and sanity)?
 
water said:
What do you think can be an issue of compromise, and what by no means should be an issue of compromise (if one is to keep one's health and sanity)?

Well, right there is a compromise, for god's sake! One can give up just a little bit of "health and sanity" in return for ...something(?) that one wants. That, my dear, IS compromise. And, of course, if one is NOT willing to give up a little bit of "health and sanity", then one must suffer the consequences of that stubbornness. See?

Get a dog ...they love unconditionally and without compromise!

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Well, right there is a compromise, for god's sake! One can give up just a little bit of "health and sanity" in return for ...something(?) that one wants. That, my dear, IS compromise. And, of course, if one is NOT willing to give up a little bit of "health and sanity", then one must suffer the consequences of that stubbornness. See?

Get a dog ...they love unconditionally and without compromise!

I don't I want anything for what I'd have to pay with my health or sanity, even a tiny bit of it.

Tending to one's health and sanity is not stubborness, it is a prerequisite for love.
 
Thank you Quantum. I think what you call "self determination" is related to and possibly included in what Maslow called "self actualization", but more on this later...

Quantum Quack said:
I would go a little further in this discourse and suggest that empowerment does not require a giving of power as the person already has the power but more a case of removing obstacles so that power is not frustrated.

An example could be when designing a new building that out of landscape necessity requires a step at the enterance to facilitate access to the building. The designer has a simple decision to make, does he design in a small ramp or does he design a step. The difference in cost is truely insignificant. However the benefit of a ramp is enormous to wheel chair bound or other wise disabled persons.

The designer has the ability to empower disabled persons by removing uneccessary frustrations to their use of power.
Also in doing so he increases patronage to his building at no extra expense to either design asthetics or material costs.

Another example would be to purchase a box of crayons or pencils for a young child, thus providing the tools for the child to express him/herself, giving the child the ability to use his / her creativity thus empowering the childs power of imagination and learning.
No, it is not giving power that it is about but more about facilitating a persons pre-existing power by removing obstacles and reducing frustration.
Good examples. Parents encourage a child to experience success, by rearranging its surroundings to facilitate success. They still move around and interact with the surroundings themselves, but with greater chance of success. This is also what parents do when they teach their children basic skills like language and visualization: they are providing tools for meaningful expression (and interpretation). Parents or tutors provide a superimposed environment of values, norms and emotions, that the child can interact and associate with.

But it's the opposite of this that is the issue here. Many (if not most) children are under great pressure by parents and peers to conform (rather than simply interact meaningfully). The parents feel the child must empower them, and the child never develops a sense of self (i.e. is disempowered). It doesn't only apply to children, either. We are all continually developing and learning - it's a lifelong quest, like you said. There is always pressure - constructive (like education) and abusive (like peer pressure) - that compete with each other to shape and influence our lives. Frustration and conflict is part of life.

It's when there is no counter-pressure that we cave in. This is where I think self-actualizion and "rights" (which is just means asserting one's identity) come in.

In a truely nuturing relationship it is the individuals power that is the focus of each partner. To allow and facilitate the individuals personal growth with out actually leading the person but inspiring self leadership, a power that we all have.
And this is where the road splits. In a nurturing relationship there is little or no place for selfishness. If there is selfishness it will be all about what we can get from the other. I think this is the fine line that Baron Max pointed out: Rights must not be demands (even thinking of them as something we "deserve" can be dangerous).

I like to describe a healthy relationship this way: It's when neither party in the relationship is the centre of it. To be a "centre", others must revolve around you. It is just as dangerous for someone in power to be a centre (even if they feel they have deserved the position) as for someone who is not in power, or disempowered (who may also feel justified to demand such special attention). See how the words "demand" and "deserve" might be used in both cases? Who can really tell a successful businessman he hasn't "deserved" his power, and who can really tell a victim they don't "deserve" consideration? They both have valid claims to "centre-hood". But if there is to be a nurturing relationship, the centre must be elsewhere. On a purely transactional level, this centre is expressed through compromise: finding the point where all parties win (or "are empowered"). But relationships aren't just business transactions. The centre must be like a third party, representing all levels of a person's identity - able to authorize all our "rights".

As I said above, rights are an expression of identity. Which means we are essentially working with an "image" of ourselves. But where does our claim to this image, this identity, come from? When we insist on personal rights we imply the belief that there is an objective identity that should be universally recognized (and this is not a personal, selfish and demanding should, but a universal, dependent and imploring should). We express this in our laws for example, by codifying as much of these intuitive requirements as we can express, tailored to our circumstances and our place in time. We try to do this with as much agreement as mankind can muster, and simply declare them as binding, almost like a statement of faith: "this is the truest expression available of who we should be". It's tempting to think that only justice represents this universal image of ourselves, but laws don't define us, they merely describe an aspect of us. If we look for the love, nurture, or peace that is rightfully ours, we won't find these in any of the laws that protect us - they're already implicit. A law or a government simply can't enforce love. It's also possible to think of this image as a universal "self", a divine impersonality or manifestation of final harmony and complete unity, but that would be to deify our own creation - since we would be the personality and identity of this ideal projection.

It's also for this reason that I think the concept of universal human rights, like expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, can be deceptive. It comes too close to deifying ourselves - putting ourselves collectively "centre". Sure enough, "the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights" but they can only claim themselves as its highest authority: "These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations" (29:3). It states an identity, empowered by its own authority.

Legalized human rights are a great example of what I mean by the third centre, as an "objective" system for self-regulation and mutual empowerment. It gives everyone a maypole to swing around. But it's not rooted anywhere - it depends on the same species who made it necessary.

I personally believe that to learn how to empower people [in this context] is the greatest leadership ability a person can learn. This is also what defines good government from not so good government, how they empower their electorate is what makes for a good measuring stick as to the benefit of their governance.
And if they try to keep that power, insist on their status at all costs, they become corrupt, and they eventually lose not just their power and status, but also their humanity. People talk about the "balance of power", and for some this just means keeping people happy enough to get re-elected. But spoilt people, although happy, eventually want to be the centre of attention too. Everybody demands their own rights, and use the justice system to insist on them.

Governments also consist of people, and through their policies they have an indirect relationship with their people. If this relationship is about power or money it will be no more than a business transaction, and because it's already so impersonal and indirect that will make it worse. If someone's god is money and power, he will strive to bear the image of money and power, and will measure his success by it.

Another example that I feel is also relevant is a more personal one.
//...//

So empowerment is in itself an empowering issue.
I applaud you both for remaining true to your conscience! You have given an excellent example of how affirmations of faith, identity and conscience - "rights" - can be asserted for what they were intended for: enduring, healthy relationships. The moment rights are abused, insisted upon at the cost of others - used for manipulation, extortion, and all forms of selfishness - they cease to be rights; they lose their "right-hood" and actually become wrongs. If our precious rights don't empower other people, we disempower ourselves.

And your priest showed how well he understood the role of the church. It was established by Jesus with the express purpose of facilitation and reconciliation. The Pharisees in Jesus' time were also experts on rights, expressed in various laws and traditions, and they exercized them meticulously, with great care and attention. But they forgot the reason why these rights existed in the first place, and God found fault with them (Matt. 23:23). He restored the proper perspective, brought reconciliation between disempowered man and the God of all power, and "committed to them the message of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18-19).

You also asked,
Would considering the episode of the apple and the tree in Eden as a statement of self determination [metaphorically] be of benefit do you think?
I definitely think so, because that is what is at the core (no pun intended on the "apple" :) ) of the account. Genesis 1-11 might be called "The rise and fall of Adam and Eve", and it's a story repeats itself in every human life. God, as Creator, was per definition the centre of all life, and it's a position only He can properly occupy. His laws (which we understand though conscience and other requirements for justice) give us our rights. They don't disempower us, but arrange our environment in a way that is conducive to a healthy relationship with Him, each other and ourselves (not to mention with nature itself). By adhering to these rights we empower ourselves, and get a more accurate understanding of the image we were created in. Contrary to this is the desire to be God and to place ourselves centre - to take from the tree at the centre of the garden (did you notice this was where the forbidden tree was?) because someone decided we're entitled to. The price Adam and Eve payed was a broken relationship with God and nature. They became disempowered, not divinely-empowered like they expected.

I think I would put it this way: Self-determination is a right and a mandate, because when we actualize ourselves we get to know ourselves as God's image. But when we abuse it (which happens when we put ourselves before other people), we get a skewed image of who we are (and who God is): we rise above who we were created to be, and we're not self-actualizing anymore, we're trying to become God. That's when our rights becomes wrongs, and everybody suffers. If people empower themselves it usually turns out differenty than if God empowers them.
 
water said:
I don't I want anything for what I'd have to pay with my health or sanity, even a tiny bit of it.

Tending to one's health and sanity is not stubborness, it is a prerequisite for love.
I agree. One can't compromise what can't be compromised. Some people might have a little health and sanity to sacrifice (I think people like counsellors, soldiers, policemen and doctors typically do this), but another person might not. (Maybe that's more sacrifice than compromise, though). The principle of a compromise is willingness, and this is usually proportional to what will be gained by it. But since it's a function of two or more parties and their circumstances, one can't really make decisions about it from elsewhere.

On the topic, I would say that people who go into a relationship where one has been abused, a possible compromise might be that one will refrain their natural instinct to help, while the other will attend regular counselling. That way the common concern is addressed without either party taking an unwanted amount of strain.
 
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Jenyar,
Thanks for your most insightful post,
I like to describe a healthy relationship this way: It's when neither party in the relationship is the centre of it.

It is often amazing to me how sometimes people have something so special to offer and your dialogue on a non-centered partnership is one of those times.
I have heard reference before that alluded to this but have never read about it directly. It is good to see in words that which I have been pro-actively pursuing.

As you have stated it is when a partnership is centered on one partner that the partnership is no longer an equitable one. Thus no longer a partnership.

In business a partnership has the business as is it's central focus and not the individual partners. In the marriage of two people I often have felt that it is the shared love that is the focuss and not her love or his love but their love.
As you have said this is an important distinction and I agree it is one that leads to a healthy relationship.
As a personal side note, this is also the greatest cause of confusion to my wife in that she comes from a culture where the man of the relationship is alwys the center of that relationship. Whilst some men find this ego boosting I find it a constant drain. Since our meeting [ Partner and I ] 3 years ago it has been the topic of much discussion and some times painful consequences. Her cultural conditioning has made her desire servitude, and I have often made the comment that If I wanted a servant I would buy one. No, I wish for a relationship where by each stands on an equal footing, as I feel this is where the greatest benefit can be achieved.
Culturaly Val [ My partner ] has had great difficulty coming to terms with the fact that I think of her as an equal and initially I was very puzzled by this. Her fear of being accountable and self determined actually was a serious barrier and is still a topic that inspires defensive reactions.

Some people actually have not the courage to stand on there own two feet in a relationship. Some will defer to the other simply because it is a way of shifting responsibility for their lives on to someone else. They willingly transfer their "power" because they lack the courage [ due to a lack of past empowerments] to take responsibility for their desires and actions. This presents a problem for the "power" person. It means that he [ usually it is a he] has to assume responibility for someone elses happiness and emotional survival. From past experience this is extremely hard work, especially if you love the suplicant. To be totally responsible for a partners happiness is a huge responsibility and very debilitating given the energy needed to even resemble success. [ one can never be successful]
So by being a center in a relationship is actually not a pleasant place to be, even if it boosts the ego it is doomed to fail as the enhanced ego is precariously premised.

Water has mentioned how in her relationship with her friend it appears he is the center of that relationship. This means that Water has to bend over backwards to maintain that friendship and in doing so her identity within that relationship is no longer strong but merely as a suplicant to that center. [ Her maile friend]

Patrnerships are about " the partnership " and not just about the partner.
This issue is also often seen in religious discussion where by a person will place themselvs as a center in their relationship with God. I must admit I often am impressed with discussion is more about the partnership between man and God rather than the onesidedness that often comes up.

When the "what he wants" becomes the "what we want" I feel true progresss has been made in that relationship with God. Being in a "what we want" position with God means the removal of servitude and a greater onesness with God exists.
 
QQ,


I saw some relevance in Jenyar's post, but not as much after you have posted your comments to it. :)

Yes, in that relationship with that friend that I was talking about he was definitely the center. Not because he wanted to, but because of something else. People with a difficult background, esp. if the family of origin is high-stress/low-nurture, develop poor self-esteem and poor interpersonal boudaries. Thus, they have their major troubles in relationships. They cannot be intimate with another person, they become enmeshed with the other person -- trying to BE the other person. Meaning they will try to think, look, act as the other person. Of course, they cannot, one cannot be someone else, hence the frustration. Enmeshment may look like intimacy, but isn't.
Now that I look back on that "relationship", I've noticed that I've made some frighteningly accurate observations while still in it. I have some emails, letters, diary entries -- written proof. Like, I would tell him, "We're not close, we just spend a lot of time together," or "There is no room for me in this relationship," or "I am borrowing your personality so that I can feel like someone", or "I should commit to not hang on you for giving every thing meaning and purpose" -- and this is exactly what enmeshment feels like to the enmesher: because they, as persons, aren't really there in that relationship, and they certainly don't feel close to the other person (while the other person may feel close to them). Of course, the enmesher isn't aware that he is one, this is how the enmeshment can go on.


QQ, I don't mean this as personal criticism of you and your wife. I really find it strange though that the two of you are married, while her having such difficulties. I sometimes hear people talk about their marriages, and I wonder why on earth did they got married, if they have such differences! I especially fail to understand how an inter-faith marriage is possible. How can a Buddhist marry a Catholic, or a Muslim a Hindu, or a Christian an atheist? I imagine that there must be quite a coldness there in such a marriage; it may certainly be passionate. But if the two are spiritually so different, so not in accord, then I wonder what they are doing together.

And what about children? How are they to raise them, except with a neutralized mess of spirituality?

And then all those fancy couples who "decide" not to have children, but still have sex. If they decided not to have children, this means that the woman is planning to have an abortion if she conceives despite contraceptives.
Is that an acceptable sacrifice of health and sanity on the woman's part ...
 
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water said:
QQ,


I saw some relevance in Jenyar's post, but not as much after you have posted your comments to it. :)

Yes, in that relationship with that friend that I was talking about he was definitely the center. Not because he wanted to, but because of something else. People with a difficult background, esp. if the family of origin is high-stress/low-nurture, develop poor self-esteem and poor interpersonal boudaries. Thus, they have their major troubles in relationships. They cannot be intimate with another person, they become enmeshed with the other person -- trying to BE the other person. Meaning they will try to think, look, act as the other person. Of course, they cannot, one cannot be someone else, hence the frustration. Enmeshment may look like intimacy, but isn't.
Now that I look back on that "relationship", I've noticed that I've made some frighteningly accurate observations while still in it. I have some emails, letters, diary entries -- written proof. Like, I would tell him, "We're not close, we just spend a lot of time together," or "There is no room for me in this relationship" -- and this is exactly what enmeshment feels like to the enmesher: because they, as persons, aren't really there in that relationship, and they certainly don't feel close to the other person (while the other person may feel close to them). Of course, the enmesher isn't aware that he is one, this is how the enmeshment can go on.


QQ, I don't mean this as personal criticism of you and your wife. I really find it strange though that the two of you are married, while her having such difficulties. I sometimes hear people talk about their marriages, and I wonder why on earth did they got married, if they have such differences! I especially fail to understand how an inter-faith marriage is possible. How can a Buddhist marry a Catholic, or a Muslim a Hindu, or a Christian an atheist? I imagine that there must be quite a coldness there in such a marriage; it may certainly be passionate. But if the two are spiritually so different, so not in accord, then I wonder what they are doing together.

And what about children? How are they to raise them, except with a neutralized mess of spirituality?

And then all those fancy couples who "decide" not to have children, but still have sex. If they decided not to have children, this means that the woman is planning to have an abortion if she conceives despite contraceptives.
Is that an acceptable sacrifice of health and sanity on the woman's part ...

What you ask is a very valid question and I feel very pertinent to the topic.
Why marry someone who is so different to yourself in so many ways?

My short answer is that I didn't marry my wife for intellectual reasons I married my wife for reasons of the heart and not the head.

All these "things" such as religion and philosophy are mere intellectual things and if anything allow diversity in discussion and dialogue but they are not in them selves sufficient reason for marriage. It is the heart or feelings that have no words to describe them. It is not a marriage of intellect that is paramount but a marriage of "soul".
In a pseudo religious sense the intellect is like so many other things lost and forgotten in the passing of life however it is the souls connection that is enduring. Knowledge is lost at death but can this be as easilly stated for the soul?

To put the intellect into perspective, all the knowledge and words we play with mean absolutely zero if the soul [ heart] is not involved.

So to answer your question my wife could be from Venus and it would make no difference at all.
It is true that we struggle with serious language, religious and other more physical difficulties, however these "things" are merely tools of the heart and not the heart itself.
A simple method we have used to get past most of these "things" is to sit silently and not utter any words. Learning to feel what we want to say instead of talking what we want to say. It is our friendship that is enduring and these intellectual issues are more a source of amusement than frustration.

To go an share a sunset, being close, with out words limiting our understanding etc etc.....A sunset is afterall a sunset in any culture.

So really it is a matter of what is of greatest priority. Intellectual discusion [words] or discussions of the heart [feelings]?
I guess most persons would feel that what I am saying is so "soppy" and romantic. Well.....I guess I am a romantic but "soppy" I am not so convinced about.

I have no answers to relationship issues I only have what I feel. There is no rule book that can be written to show us how to love or be loved as it is something we must expeinece for ourselves.

Our child in our relationship is our pet Budgie. He speaks no English or Portugues and we speak not Budgie but he is loved as an equal. I think it is our relationship with animals that is a good source of inspiration of unconditionality, tolerance, forebearance, and mutuality and most importantly it puts the intellect into a more valid perpsective and context.
 
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