So, you're asking what could possibly be worse than an eternity of hellfire?
Working on the Sabbath warrants a death sentence
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
So, you're asking what could possibly be worse than an eternity of hellfire?
There's a great many things to be said about... well, a great many things, Sam. I suppose that's the point, isn't it... not just what you find from a one-all-singular book of myths.
What difference does that make? The Quran is not Islam in it's entirety any more than the Torah is Judaism.
There are obviously different schools of interpretation, the Talmud, and different sects- orthodox and reformed...
I will make it simple, despite your vindictive sourcing.
The key is the ordering.
(in simplicity here...)
The first commandment says to believe in the God who took Israel from Egypt, the second to confirm that he is one - and not to worship idols, the third to respect his name and not use it lightly, the fourth to keep the Sabbath.
The first time it's listed in Exodus 20:8 it says the reason is "This is a day of rest for God", the second time in Deuteronomy 5:12 it says "To recall your exodus from Egypt".
In a commentary on Rambam's Mishneh Torah, "Anyone who says that he believes in G-d but denies these [its] truths, is fooling himself. He may say that he believes in G-d, but what he really has done is to set up an idol and called it G-d. " - Kesef Mishneh, Lechem Mishneh, on Yad, Tshuvah 3:7
In another commentary it states "As creator, G-d's existence cannot depend on any of his creatures. Our definition therefore rejects any concept of G-d as an abstract ethical force or social convention" - Emunos VeDeyos 1:1, Yad, Yesodey HaTorah 1:1,5.
If a person says that he believes in a God, but does not believe that He is Creator, then he does not really believe in the Jewish concept of God. If that God gave you a commandment to enact, your enactment is recognition of his infinite knowledge.
Though if you were to mistakenly think that he's exited from action you're also recognizing this one fact - "G-d was telling us that He is involved in the affairs of man and has a profound interest in what we do" - Ramban ad loc., Sefer HaChinuch 25. Cf. Kazari 1:1, 2. So rootly in most basic terms the Sabbath is the recognition of God as the creator of all things.
Thus to disobey the Sabbath is to deny his providence, something worthy of death,
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Why the punishment cannot be administered is simple. The last Sanhedrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin#Dissolution) was dissolved around year 400. The Sanhedrin is the only court which can ordain a Rabbi properly, one who would be fit to administer punishments legally in Jewish law. Therefore no living man any long has jurisdiction to do punishments. They have rights to do marriages and divorces only because the documentation has been preserved. Judging is done on case to case basis, and therefore the Judge was to make decision as to whether or not the law was truly broken - we can't assume anyone living has that foresight.
It will not be until a Kingdom of Israel can reestablish a King, that will provide the neccessary authority to establish Sanhedrin that Judges can be appointed to carry out the laws. Not to mention there's another Jewish concept called "דִּינָא דְּמַלְכוּתָא דִּינָא" DINA DE-MALKHUTA DINA which roughly states that you must following the laws of the land in which you reside as long as it does not bring you do transgress a NEGATIVE commandment. The punishment of someone who transgresses the Sabbath is a positive one.
The key is the ordering.
(in simplicity here...)
The first commandment says to believe in the God who took Israel from Egypt, the second to confirm that he is one - and not to worship idols, the third to respect his name and not use it lightly, the fourth to keep the Sabbath.
The first time it's listed in Exodus 20:8 it says the reason is "This is a day of rest for God", the second time in Deuteronomy 5:12 it says "To recall your exodus from Egypt".
In a commentary on Rambam's Mishneh Torah, "Anyone who says that he believes in G-d but denies these [its] truths, is fooling himself. He may say that he believes in G-d, but what he really has done is to set up an idol and called it G-d. " - Kesef Mishneh, Lechem Mishneh, on Yad, Tshuvah 3:7
In another commentary it states "As creator, G-d's existence cannot depend on any of his creatures. Our definition therefore rejects any concept of G-d as an abstract ethical force or social convention" - Emunos VeDeyos 1:1, Yad, Yesodey HaTorah 1:1,5.
If a person says that he believes in a God, but does not believe that He is Creator, then he does not really believe in the Jewish concept of God. If that God gave you a commandment to enact, your enactment is recognition of his infinite knowledge.
Though if you were to mistakenly think that he's exited from action you're also recognizing this one fact - "G-d was telling us that He is involved in the affairs of man and has a profound interest in what we do" - Ramban ad loc., Sefer HaChinuch 25. Cf. Kazari 1:1, 2. So rootly in most basic terms the Sabbath is the recognition of God as the creator of all things.
Thus to disobey the Sabbath is to deny his providence, something worthy of death,
------
Why the punishment cannot be administered is simple. The last Sanhedrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin#Dissolution) was dissolved around year 400. The Sanhedrin is the only court which can ordain a Rabbi properly, one who would be fit to administer punishments legally in Jewish law. Therefore no living man any long has jurisdiction to do punishments. They have rights to do marriages and divorces only because the documentation has been preserved. Judging is done on case to case basis, and therefore the Judge was to make decision as to whether or not the law was truly broken - we can't assume anyone living has that foresight.
It will not be until a Kingdom of Israel can reestablish a King, that will provide the neccessary authority to establish Sanhedrin that Judges can be appointed to carry out the laws. Not to mention there's another Jewish concept called "דִּינָא דְּמַלְכוּתָא דִּינָא" DINA DE-MALKHUTA DINA which roughly states that you must following the laws of the land in which you reside as long as it does not bring you do transgress a NEGATIVE commandment. The punishment of someone who transgresses the Sabbath is a positive one.
I think most Jews today are indoctrined with a Western mentality which has no system of punishments for your beliefs. Judaic law does believe people should be punished for believing in certain ideologies - that certain ideas are dangerous, and should be eliminated promptly. It also believes that doing so should be done with the upmost care, and death penalties were done very infrequently - ironically, less than Western society.
I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable. Which is why I've no apprehension to the idea of Sharia Laws being enacted, only disagreement to its laws. Most Jews who have similar philosophy when asked as to whether or not they would enact the laws if they could would respond roughly 'We would all most surely be dead at present'.
I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable. Which is why I've no apprehension to the idea of Sharia Laws being enacted, only disagreement to its laws. Most Jews who have similar philosophy when asked as to whether or not they would enact the laws if they could would respond roughly 'We would all most surely be dead at present'.
I'll borrow the essence of my reply to that from LG. It gives me great pleasure to ask you to please define 'work'. For starters, the online dictionary has 13 meanings as a noun and 12 as a verb.
I disagree with all sharia laws that have no basis in the Qur'an, but I do agree that different societies have different needs as they develop and this is reflected in their legal systems. Most societies go through the same kind of cycles as they progress and regress and you can see this reflected in the social consensus that dominates.
Thats one of the things I disagree with.
There's plenty of room for all philosophies.
I was wondering if anyone would ever bring that up. Thats what I call an interesting loophole.
I was wondering if anyone would ever bring that up. Thats what I call an interesting loophole.
It's a genuine thread killer
Can't even get rid of the more recent meanings just in case the word in the original verse is metaphorical. Giving birth is work, is it not?
It's a genuine thread killer
Technically even breathing is work, it uses ATP.
Technically even breathing is work, it uses ATP.
If the bible was a wicket then it has just been bowled. As I said, a real thread killer.
Not so much recent meanings but even if you were to take it literally or to mean doing labor for money(what I think it means here), then every other piece of scripture that's labelled as metaphoric is now suspect.
Jewish law has a presiding (and unchanging) prioritization of values.
The laws for what are considered "work" is derived from the building of the Tabernacle and carrying of the Tabernacle. It's done so because "work" is a poor translation. I think it's called a hekesh, the word used for "work" is used in places...and by seeing the different places its used you can determine it's proper definition. Thus "work" is defined by its use in the creation of the tabernacle. It appears in both places.
The laws for what are considered "work" is derived from the building of the Tabernacle and carrying of the Tabernacle. It's done so because "work" is a poor translation. I think it's called a hekesh, the word used for "work" is used in places...and by seeing the different places its used you can determine it's proper definition. Thus "work" is defined by its use in the creation of the tabernacle. It appears in both places.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Yes. Yes it is.
But even if we were to redefine work in every generation the original query is still puzzling. Why would death be a punishment? Note that we are speaking of a time when death was commonplace and even noble. People discarded imperfect children or fed them to Moloch. The best warriors would consider martyrdom as the epoch of honour. Dying for the Lord should be positive, not negative.
Anyway, I see I will have to look at it a bit more. It doesn't gel with everything else going on at the time.
But I bet there are many commentaries on what "work" is, am I right?
Sorry to sidetrack your discussions. LG has done it to me several times, I saw an opportunity, and the rest is history. Going golfing...bye
All things considered work are derived from 39 principals.
1. Carrying
2. Burning
3. Extinguishing
4. Finishing
5. Writing
6. Erasing
7. Cooking
8. Washing
9. Sewing
10. Tearing
11. Knotting
12. Untying
13. Shaping
14. Plowing
15. Planting
16. Reaping
17. Harvesting
18. Threshing
19. Winnowing
20. Selecting
21. Sifting
22. Grinding
23. Kneading
24. Combing
25. Spinning
26. Dyeing
27. Chain-stitching
28. Warping
29. Weaving
30. Unraveling
31. Building
32. Demolishing
33. Trapping
34. Shearing
35. Slaughtering
36. Skinning
37. Tanning
38. Smoothing
39. Marking
All which were derived from the building of the Tabernacle in one way or another. The commentaries are simply explanations as to why that specific action is considered 'work'.