why we need ghosts

[Write4U]

P.S. I was going to say that there's no religion-like belief in quantum entanglement or dark energy, but of course there is. There's a fringe element, led by people like Deepak Chopra, for whom quantum entanglement or dark energy are of the same flavor as the mystical "energies" applied by believers in souls and ghosts. These people draw on the parts of the science that suit their purposes at any given time, and ignore the rest. For them, entanglement means whatever they need it to mean, just like a ghost is whatever you need it to be at the time

I'm not so sure that Chopra gives "magical" attributes to quantum but rather that quantum has more applications than is as yet fully explored.

ORCH-OR is a new perspective on quantum collapse in the brain, for instance.
If I understand it he is part of the Hammeroff - Penrose collaboration on understanding the mechanics of consciousness itself. This needs not be religious in principle, but may well be confirmed by ongoing experiments in the future.

This conversation between Hameroff and Chopra may be of interest. Hameroff subtly seems to steer Chopra away from the magical aspects and keep it to quantum mechanics.

I think we must admit we still have little understanding of the universe at quantum scales.
Who knows what wonders will be discovered in that realm.

 

[James R]

I'm not so sure that Chopra gives "magical" attributes to quantum but rather that quantum has more applications than is as yet fully explored.

Chopra has made a career out of spinning out flights of fantasy from real science. He knows just enough physics to be effective at bamboozling his followers with technical terms. However, the vast majority of what he talks and writes about is pseudoscience.

I think we must admit we still have little understanding of the universe at quantum scales.
Who knows what wonders will be discovered in that realm.

On the contrary, I think we've got quite a good understanding of the universe at quantum scales. Because the results of quantum mechanics are non-intuitive and the mathematics required to really understand the theory is above most people's pay grade, it is fertile ground for making a kind of religion. Ideas such as "everything is connected to everything else" and "spooky action at a distance" are immensely appealing to the proponents of pyramid power, the "Law of Attraction", cosmic consciousness etc., but the conversations these people have typically take about a minute to move away from what science says into wild speculation and unjustified extrapolation.

 

[Write4U]

Chopra has made a career out of spinning out flights of fantasy from real science. He knows just enough physics to be effective at bamboozling his followers with technical terms. However, the vast majority of what he talks and writes about is pseudoscience.

I've listened to him and he sounds a little exotic to me also. But Eastern philosophies allow for some interesting analogies.

On the contrary, I think we've got quite a good understanding of the universe at quantum scales. Because the results of quantum mechanics are non-intuitive and the mathematics required to really understand the theory is above most people's pay grade, it is fertile ground for making a kind of religion. Ideas such as "everything is connected to everything else" and "spooky action at a distance" are immensely appealing to the proponents of pyramid power, the "Law of Attraction", cosmic consciousness etc., but the conversations these people have typically take about a minute to move away from what science says into wild speculation and unjustified extrapolation.

I agree in general, but there are many levels of magnitude between an Angstrom (smallest we can see with an electron microscope) and Planck scale of which we have some information, such as the universal constants.

The five universal constants that Planck units, by definition, normalize to 1 are:

• the speed of light in a vacuum, c,
• the gravitational constant, G,
• the reduced Planck constant, ħ,
• the Coulomb constant, ke = 1/4πε0
• the Boltzmann constant, kB

But are those the only constants that exist in that realm?

However, most Planck units are many orders of magnitude too large or too small to be of practical use, so that Planck units as a system are really only relevant to theoretical physics.

In fact, 1 Planck unit is often the largest or smallest value of a physical quantity that makes sense according to our current understanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units

My question is if there might be a metaphysical world (such as mathematical constants), where potential implications form which become expressed in reality as mathematical patterns. And which explains my infatuation with Tegmark...

But at an even deeper level, I am thinking of David Bohm's hierarchies of orders as in his hypothesis of "wholeness and the implicate order". I find it very profound.

 

[Magical Realist]

Chopra has made a career out of spinning out flights of fantasy from real science. He knows just enough physics to be effective at bamboozling his followers with technical terms. However, the vast majority of what he talks and writes about is pseudoscience.


On the contrary, I think we've got quite a good understanding of the universe at quantum scales. Because the results of quantum mechanics are non-intuitive and the mathematics required to really understand the theory is above most people's pay grade, it is fertile ground for making a kind of religion. Ideas such as "everything is connected to everything else" and "spooky action at a distance" are immensely appealing to the proponents of pyramid power, the "Law of Attraction", cosmic consciousness etc., but the conversations these people have typically take about a minute to move away from what science says into wild speculation and unjustified extrapolation.

If quantum entanglement isn't "spooky action at a distance", then what else is it? From my understanding of it that is exactly what it is.

"Quantum entanglement is a physical phenomenon which occurs when pairs or groups of particles are generated, interact, or share spatial proximity in ways such that the quantum state of each particle cannot be described independently of the state of the other(s), even when the particles are separated by a large distance."--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

 

[James R]

If quantum entanglement isn't "spooky action at a distance", then what else is it? From my understanding of it that is exactly what it is.

Call it that if you like, but don't imagine that "spooky" means anything magical or, let us say, ghost-like. It means something more like "counter-intuitive" or "unexpected".

When two particles are entangled, they can no longer be described by separate wave functions or quantum states, but instead must be considered as parts of a single wavefunction or state. That wavefunction can be spread out spatially over a very large region of space. Nevertheless, it still obeys the usual quantum rules regarding measurement, in particular the idea that when a measurement is made the wavefunction - a superposition of basis states, in this case - "collapses" to one of the possible basis states, with relative probability determined by the wavefunction itself. If the particles that form parts of the wavefunction are separated by a large distance, then a measurement can result in correlations observed over that large distance, too.

Importantly, no information is transmitted faster than the speed of light when an entangled wave function collapses due to a measurement.

 

[James R]

I've listened to him and he sounds a little exotic to me also. But Eastern philosophies allow for some interesting analogies.

As I said, Chopra has made a career out of trying to shoehorn Eastern mystical ideas into modern physics or vice versa. The parallels between the two are not nearly as strong as he would like you to believe.

My question is if there might be a metaphysical world (such as mathematical constants), where potential implications form which become expressed in reality as mathematical patterns.

You mean some kind of metaphysical world might explain the physical world, or that there is somehow a transfer from the metaphysical to the physical?

How is your metaphysical world different from the world of ideas?

But at an even deeper level, I am thinking of David Bohm's hierarchies of orders as in his hypothesis of "wholeness and the implicate order". I find it very profound.

I'm not familiar with that.

 

[Magical Realist]

Call it that if you like, but don't imagine that "spooky" means anything magical or, let us say, ghost-like. It means something more like "counter-intuitive" or "unexpected".

Yes..Einstein originated the term and we all know what he meant by it. He is describing entanglement exactly like it is. It's not some New Age belief. It's all tied into Bell's proof of quantum nonlocality.

Importantly, no information is transmitted faster than the speed of light when an entangled wave function collapses due to a measurement.

Then explain these results:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080813/full/news.2008.1038.html

 

[James R]

Yes..Einstein originated the term...

Yes.

Einstein was an early devil's advocate regarding quantum physics, which at the time was a very new field of study. But here we are, more than 100 years later, with the benefit of 100 years of progress in physics since Einstein said that.

...and we all know what he meant by it.

I'm not convinced that "we all" know what he meant, at all. I'm not even convinced you know what he meant by it.

He is describing entanglement exactly like it is.

Actually, at the time he was expressing skepticism about the implications of quantum theory. He also said "God does not play dice", but 100 years of physics has proven him wrong, and even at the time the evidence was against him.

It's not some New Age belief. It's all tied into Bell's proof of quantum nonlocality.

Entanglement is very much not a New Age belief. The connection between Eastern mysticism and entanglement, however, very much is.

Then explain these results:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080813/full/news.2008.1038.html

What do you need explained?

 

[DaveC426913]

Then explain these results:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080813/full/news.2008.1038.html

This is ten years old, so I think I'm remembering the same incident.

It caused a big fuss at the time - made the news. But of course, it had not been independently verified. When others attempted to recreate the results, they couldn't, casting grave doubts on the original experiment.

And sure enough, they turned up a mechanical problem (some faulty electronic or coolant connector?) in the experiment setup that caused a very slight delay (56ms?) just long enough to make it look like the photons had arrived sooner than they should have.

At least, that's from memory. I've done this backwards - posting my memory before checking the facts...

 

[Write4U]

As I said, Chopra has made a career out of trying to shoehorn Eastern mystical ideas into modern physics or vice versa. The parallels between the two are not nearly as strong as he would like you to believe.

You mean some kind of metaphysical world might explain the physical world, or that there is somehow a transfer from the metaphysical to the physical?

Something like that. The Platonic solids are representations of inherent universal pattern potentials, constants. They exist as metaphysical patterns which become expressed when applied to the structural expressions of physical constituents.

How is your metaphysical world different from the world of ideas?

If physical things behave in certain predictable ways then can we not ask if this is due to abstract common metaphysical functional imperatives ( Magnetism, Chiralty, Symmetry, etc).

This is one of Bohm's fundamental differences with mainstream physics.
btw. Bohm was a good friend of Einstein and they spent a lot of time in discussions.
http://thebohmdocumentary.org/bohm-and-einstein/

I'm not familiar with that.

Unless you are perfectly satisfied with the current state of physics, reading David Bohm will open a new dimensional perspective. His major work is actually quite popular under the name Bohmian Mechanics.

The de Broglie–Bohm theory, also known as the pilot wave theory, Bohmian mechanics, Bohm's interpretation, and the causal interpretation, is an interpretation of quantum mechanics. In addition to a wavefunction on the space of all possible configurations, it also postulates an actual configuration that exists even when unobserved.

The evolution over time of the configuration (that is, the positions of all particles or the configuration of all fields) is defined by the wave function by a guiding equation. The evolution of the wave function over time is given by the Schrödinger equation. The theory is named after Louis de Broglie (1892–1987) and David Bohm(1917–1992).

The theory is deterministic[1] and explicitly nonlocal: the velocity of any one particle depends on the value of the guiding equation, which depends on the configuration of the system given by its wavefunction; the latter depends on the boundary conditions of the system, which, in principle, may be the entire universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory#Results

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholeness_and_the_Implicate_Order
Am I still on topic?.......

 

[Magical Realist]

What do you need explained?

Never mind if you can't see it...

 

[Write4U]

This may add to the discussion;

 

[James R]

From the linked article:

"On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

This is completely consistent with what I said: no information is transferred between the photons faster than the speed of light. That would be impossible (or, at least, inconsistent with relativity).

Importantly, FTL information transfer is not necessary to explain entanglement. I gave a brief description of what actually happens above.

Does that clarify things for you, Magical Realist?

 

[Write4U]

And this gets weird;

Bohm postulates that photons are only particles and that the wavelike behavior is from a prior source, the universal Pilot Wave which contains the 'guiding' (wave interference) equation.

The double slit experiment yields almost identical results, except that with Bohm's model each particle always occupies a specific place within the universal Pilot wave.

 

[Magical Realist]

From the linked article:

"On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

This is completely consistent with what I said: no information is transferred between the photons faster than the speed of light. That would be impossible (or, at least, inconsistent with relativity).

Importantly, FTL information transfer is not necessary to explain entanglement. I gave a brief description of what actually happens above.

Does that clarify things for you, Magical Realist?

You don't get it. The experiment proves FTL communication between two photons. Here's the statement again:

"On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

"The bottom line, says Gisin is that “there is just no time for these two photons to communicate”.

The experiment shows that in quantum mechanics at least, some things transcend space-time, says Terence Rudolph, a theorist at Imperial College London. It also shows that humans have attached undue importance to the three dimensions of space and one of time we live in, he argues. “We think space and time are important because that’s the kind of monkeys we are.”

If you are baffled by the result, fear not — you’re not alone. “For me, honestly, it doesn’t make any sense,” says Gisin. “I don’t think we can today claim that we have a good story to tell how this all happens.” He hopes that the work will stimulate theorists to come up with new ways of explaining the spooky effect."

If you're still confused, read the title of the article:
Physicists spooked by faster-than-light information transfer

 

[James R]

You don't get it. The experiment proves FTL communication between two photons. Here's the statement again:

"On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

"The bottom line, says Gisin is that “there is just no time for these two photons to communicate”.

So there's no time for them to communicate ... but they communicated?

That doesn't read quite right, does it?

The experiment shows that in quantum mechanics at least, some things transcend space-time, says Terence Rudolph, a theorist at Imperial College London.

I wonder if he really said that or if it was mis-reported or misconstrued by the reporter. If this is accurate, then Rudolph is simply wrong about entanglement transcending space and time. It just shows you: people make mistakes.

It also shows that humans have attached undue importance to the three dimensions of space and one of time we live in, he argues. “We think space and time are important because that’s the kind of monkeys we are.”

That's a very strange thing for him to say. It would seem to be self-evident that space and time are important, and not just because we're monkeys. They are certainly of central importance in physics.

If you are baffled by the result, fear not — you’re not alone. “For me, honestly, it doesn’t make any sense,” says Gisin. “I don’t think we can today claim that we have a good story to tell how this all happens.” He hopes that the work will stimulate theorists to come up with new ways of explaining the spooky effect."

It's not uncommon for physicists to want more in terms of explanation than quantum theory currently provides. There's no guarantee, however, that there is more that can be known about the "mechanism". In fact, from one perspective, quantum mechanics is a theory about how much information the universe will let us have.

If you're still confused, read the title of the article

It's a bit sensationalist, isn't it? Inaccurate, too.

How's that confusion going for you?

 

[Magical Realist]

So there's no time for them to communicate ... but they communicated?

That doesn't read quite right, does it?


I wonder if he really said that or if it was mis-reported or misconstrued by the reporter. If this is accurate, then Rudolph is simply wrong about entanglement transcending space and time. It just shows you: people make mistakes.


That's a very strange thing for him to say. It would seem to be self-evident that space and time are important, and not just because we're monkeys. They are certainly of central importance in physics.


It's not uncommon for physicists to want more in terms of explanation than quantum theory currently provides. There's no guarantee, however, that there is more that can be known about the "mechanism". In fact, from one perspective, quantum mechanics is a theory about how much information the universe will let us have.


It's a bit sensationalist, isn't it? Inaccurate, too.

How's that confusion going for you?

You have been proven wrong by this famous experiment. FTL communication and information transfer happen in quantum entanglement. Go back to your science books. You obviously don't know as much as you strut around bragging about..

 

[DaveC426913]

You have been proven wrong by this famous experiment.

Let's be clear. It's an article written about an experiment.
Articles are not held to the same standard as science. So they can imply whatever they want - the experiment did not show that.

Note that the subject of the article - its title - is actually about the reactions of scientists (they were spooked!), not about the science itself.

FTL communication and information transfer happen in quantum entanglement.

Articles can make whatever claims they want. And this one did.

Never mind if you can't see it...

Oh. You're retracting it.

All good then.

 

[billvon]

FTL communication and information transfer happen in quantum entanglement.

No experiment has demonstrated FTL information transfer.

 

[Magical Realist]

Here's another experiment in 2013 confirming FTL communication with quantum entanglement:

https://newatlas.com/quantum-entanglement-speed-10000-faster-light/26587/

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1303.0614v1.pdf