Why Jews did not return to Palestine earlier

@spidergoat --

I never said that they didn't have the right, they have just as much right to do stupid things as you or I do, but that doesn't make them any less stupid and it doesn't mean that their foundations are any less fictional.

For the record(since apparently I haven't been making myself clear enough), I wasn't even talking about the jews who were living there already, I was talking about the ones that settled there when Israel was founded. They were the ones without any history in the area.
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Let say they immigrated to Palestine
They could live with the Arabs . Now why the Arabs liege insight with war against the new comer, Should the Newcomers just stand and not to defend themselves . No 1 Was that a Palestinian territory during WW 1 or was it a Ottoman territory , After Ottoman lost the war was it a Pastinian territory no . it was a British protectorate,
So the Exodos Jews migrated from Europa into a British protectorate land .
Now you tell whos land was it ?



And a "cultural connection" doesn't automatically give one the right to live some place, especially not when there's an already established population who'd been there for generations. I have a very strong "cultural" connection to Ireland, my entire family on my dad's side does(pure Irish until me), does that mean that my family has the right to annex bits of Ireland? If you're looking for justifications for founding Israel then you need look no further than the Holocaust, that's more than enough justification. Bullshit about "cultural connections" isn't going to fly.

You are free to go to Ireland and buy yourself some land it becomes your .
Same Jews prior tho WW2 have purchased a large amount of land in the Norther part by Haifa and a lots of Kibutz were established there.

I've never once, ever, thought that the Israelis don't have a right to live there, but I've always thought that it was a bonedead stupid choice.[/QUOTE]
 
jews apparently were exploited by their conquerors, such as romans, to seed the colonies with industry and mercantilism and thus, tending to corner certain markets, became the perpetual targets of envy-based hatred fueled further by their tendency to integrate into their newfoud lands without losing their ancestral identity, making them outsiders and, of course, the unending targets of Christian hypocrisy

the bible story of exodus is pretty lame in comparison to the historical record. the pharaoh that was supposedly put down - his sons, the plague, etc. doesn't even show up in egyptian chronicles. apparently there were bands of jews who did wander INTO egyptian wetlands, and catch hell for doing so, but to draw from Exodus that this was a big cosmic plan takes us back to fundamentalism which is so rooted in fairy tales I forgot what the question was
 
@spidergoat --

Oh really? So the jews who went there first had been living there for generations? Huh, I never knew that. And I suppose that you're also going to tell me that there wasn't massive support for Israel to be created there(instead of a relatively safe area that wasn't surrounded by well armed enemies) from christian and jewish groups based on biblical prophecy and some phony ass "covenant with god"? Damn, to think that I've gotten things so wrong?

The jews who settled there didn't have any actual history with the land

How curious that a people with no connection to that land should have formed ethnic communities of Jews with such long histories in the region. Where did they come from? Were they born out of the sand?
 
jews apparently were exploited by their conquerors, such as romans, to seed the colonies with industry and mercantilism and thus, tending to corner certain markets, became the perpetual targets of envy-based hatred fueled further by their tendency to integrate into their newfoud lands without losing their ancestral identity, making them outsiders and, of course, the unending targets of Christian hypocrisy

the bible story of exodus is pretty lame in comparison to the historical record. the pharaoh that was supposedly put down - his sons, the plague, etc. doesn't even show up in egyptian chronicles. apparently there were bands of jews who did wander INTO egyptian wetlands, and catch hell for doing so, but to draw from Exodus that this was a big cosmic plan takes us back to fundamentalism which is so rooted in fairy tales I forgot what the question was

We are not discussing Jews prior Roman time . There is an other post for your subject , so stick to post Marco Antonio period
 
seems to me that the people who wandered into the place they ended up calling Palestine ended up with some pretty bleak real estate, surrounded by for centuries by mostly superior nations who were constantly kicking their ass and taking names

on top of that they brought some pretty dismal accounts of their earlier bad real estate deal in the floodplains of Iraq (Ur)

while they were trapped in abject hopelessness for eons, folks like the Egyptians were using their river remarkably well, and thriving

no wonder the the jews evolved such a durable outer skin. they evolved it.
 
We are not discussing Jews prior Roman time - my bad.

How about the medieval experience of jeews in the Holy Roman Empire? seems like you had the same dynamics - the rise and fall of feudalism, and here were these moneychangers who were anathema to the ruling religion

there are some pretty gruesome accounts of Knights Templar, crusaders of some stripe or another, just massacring the jews they encountered in European enclaves in their march eastward to liberate jerusalem from the turks
 
So the Exodos Jews migrated from Europa into a British protectorate land .

the brits were pulling the Nazis off their backs justj before 1948 broke out
they felt like maybe Palestine was their last best hope for protection?
 
So the Exodos Jews migrated from Europa into a British protectorate land .

the brits were pulling the Nazis off their backs justj before 1948 broke out
they felt like maybe Palestine was their last best hope for protection?



You can add to you history; After ww1 Brits were discussing the land of Palestine for the Jews. Later on , the Brits were trying to please Arabs because on the Arabs land there was oil, so they smothered the idea Palestine for the Jews . So the Brits did not permitted the Exodos ships land in Palestinian ports. Then the local Jews in the Palestine Fought the Brits. Menaham Began the former Israeli prime minister was the organizer to blow up the the Brits headquarter at King David hotel, a bounty of 30000 pounds was put on his head.
 
@spidergoat --

I don't think that being surrounded on all sides by enemies with a rabid hatred of them and being under threat of terrorist attack every day fits the definition of "safe". Have they gone to remarkably lengths and accomplished astounding things(their intelligence agencies being the best in the world for one) to compensate for the constant danger? Of course, they're a resilient lot, but their accomplishments themselves are evidence that they're not safe.

Didn't the USA fight against all it's neighbors at one point? The French-Indian wars, the wars in Mexico, the natives to the west... Even with each other.
 
You can add to you history; After ww1 Brits were discussing the land of Palestine for the Jews. Later on , the Brits were trying to please Arabs because on the Arabs land there was oil, so they smothered the idea Palestine for the Jews . So the Brits did not permitted the Exodos ships land in Palestinian ports. Then the local Jews in the Palestine Fought the Brits. Menaham Began the former Israeli prime minister was the organizer to blow up the the Brits headquarter at King David hotel, a bounty of 30000 pounds was put on his head.

sounds like politics as usual

so... but the people who came over in hordes were not organized under a political theory

they were running from the monster who had scared them shitless
 
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Let say they immigrated to Palestine
They could live with the Arabs . Now why the Arabs liege insight with war against the new comer, Should the Newcomers just stand and not to defend themselves . No 1 Was that a Palestinian territory during WW 1 or was it a Ottoman territory , After Ottoman lost the war was it a Pastinian territory no . it was a British protectorate,
So the Exodos Jews migrated from Europa into a British protectorate land .
Now you tell whos land was it ?



And a "cultural connection" doesn't automatically give one the right to live some place, especially not when there's an already established population who'd been there for generations. I have a very strong "cultural" connection to Ireland, my entire family on my dad's side does(pure Irish until me), does that mean that my family has the right to annex bits of Ireland? If you're looking for justifications for founding Israel then you need look no further than the Holocaust, that's more than enough justification. Bullshit about "cultural connections" isn't going to fly.

All the commonwealth countries are British protectorates at some time or another. The question is: who assigns the legality of such foreign occupiers on any land? Always it is the occupiers. The natives do not recognise the authority of foreign invaders except under coercion. Hence even though there is a United States, it has nothing to do with the rights of native Americans to live on their land and naturally they would resist any attempt to ethnically cleanse them. Similarly, the establishment of the nation of Australia does not supersede the rights of aboriginals who have been there since 40,000 years before that. There is some kind of strange mentality in those who colonise other lands that they are entitled to it because they believe that the people on whom they enforce occupation with might and power should accept it. It is the same kind of mentality that any thief possesses who enters your house with a gun and decides to hold the owners hostage and expects them to cave in.

You are free to go to Ireland and buy yourself some land it becomes your .
Same Jews prior tho WW2 have purchased a large amount of land in the Norther part by Haifa and a lots of Kibutz were established there.

About 2% of the land of the state of Israel was purchased by Jews. About 88% was owned by Arabs who were shot by the occupation militia if they attempted to return home. 10% of the land was mandate land which the "state" of Israel took over, even though the UN does not have the jurisdiction to hand over any property to immigrants. [source:The Jewish National Fund, from Jewish Villages in Israel, 1949]

As to your original question, Jews returned to Palestine only recently because many of the biblical myths are of fairly recent origin. The word Jew first appeared in the New Testament in the eighteenth century. The religion of Judaism began to be confused with the Judean peoples of Judea about that time creating a kind of pseudo link between religion and geography. It is clear from both archaeology and history that the Jewish religion is based on myths

Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it.

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.

http://history101.multiply.com/journal/item/196

Modern mythology about Jews can be traced back to Heinrich Graetz and Simon Dubnow but modern Zionism can be traced back to Christian Imperialism and the desire to manipulate British policy in the Middle East

You should read Shlomo Sand's book, the Invention of the Jewish People, on the subject. It is kind of like the story of Netanyahu and his ring which he has repeated many times:

. “The attempt by many to describe the Jews as foreign colonialists in their own homeland is one of the great lies of modern times. In my office, I have on display a signet ring that was loaned to me by Israel's Department of Antiquities. The ring was found next to the Western wall, but it dates back some 2,800 years ago, two hundred years after King David turned Jerusalem into our capital city. The ring is a seal of a Jewish official, and inscribed on it in Hebrew is his name: Netanyahu. His name was Netanyahu Ben-Yoash. My first name, Benjamin, dates back 1,000 years earlier to Benjamin, the son of Jacob. One of Benjamin's brothers was named Shimon, which also happens to be the first name of my good friend, Shimon Peres, the President of Israel. Nearly 4,000 years ago, Benjamin, Shimon and their ten brothers roamed the hills of Judea. Ladies and Gentlemen, the connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel cannot be denied. The connection between the Jewish people and Jerusalem cannot be denied. The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 year ago and the Jewish people are building Jerusalem today. Jerusalem is not a settlement. It is our capital.”

What he omits to mention is that his father's name was Milikovsky and his family adopted the name Netanyahu after they moved to Palestine from Lithuania
 
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@spidergoat --

My position has remained constant this entire time. The latter posts were clarifications on points that had been misunderstood.

A cultural connection doesn't automatically give you ownership of property or land. Nor does it automatically make a decision to move to a place smart. How has my position on that changed one jot since the thread started?

you started out very aggressive for one thing . Like you wanted to hang a Jew. I thought maybe you were Muslim Heritage instead of Irish heritage as I was reading
 
Dad

Benzion Netanyahu: The Jews and the Arabs are like two goats facing each other on a narrow bridge. One must jump into the river - but that is to risk death. The stronger goat will make the weaker jump... and I believe the Jewish people will prevail.

Q: What does the Arab's jump mean?

BN: That they won't be able to face war with us [anymore], which will include withholding food from Arab cities, preventing education, terminating electrical power and more. They won't be able to exist, and they'll run away from here. But it all depends on the war and whether we win...

Q: Operation Cast Lead was one of the worst blows we landed on a civilian population.

BN: That's not enough. It's possible we should have hit harder.

Q: You don't like the Arabs, to say the least.

BN: The Bible finds no worse image than this man from the desert. And why? Because he has no respect for any law. Because in the desert he can do as pleases. The tendency towards conflict is in the essence of the Arab. He is an enemy by essence. His personality won't allow him any compromise or agreement. It doesn't matter what kind of resistance he meets, what price he pays. His existence is one of perpetual war.

Q: Is there any hope of peace?

BN: Out of agreement? No. The other side might stay in peace [only] if it understands that doing anything [else] will cause it enormous pain. The two-state solution doesn't exist. There aren't two people here. There is a Jewish people and an Arab population... There is no Palestinian people, so you don't create a state for an imaginary nation*... They only call themselves a people in order to fight the Jews.

Q: So what's the solution?

BN: There is no solution except force... strong military rule. Any outbreak will bring upon the Arabs enormous suffering. We shouldn't wait for a big mutiny to start, but rather act immediately, with great force to prevent them from going on... If it's possible, we should conquer any disputed territory in the land of Israel. Conquer and hold it, even if it brings us years of war. We should conquer Gaza, and parts of the Galil, and the Golan. This will bring upon us a bloody war, since war is difficult for us. We don't have a lot of territory, while the Arabs have lots of space to retreat to. But that's the only way to survive here.​

Son

A newly revealed tape of Netanyahu in 2001, being interviewed while he thinks the cameras are off, shows him in a radically different light. In it, Netanyahu dismisses American foreign policy as easy to maneuver, boasts of having derailed the Oslo accords with political trickery, and suggests that the only way to deal with the Palestinians is to “beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up so it hurts so badly, until it’s unbearable” (all translations are mine).

Netanyahu is speaking to a small group of terror victims in the West Bank settlement of Ofra two years after stepping down as prime minister in 1999. He appears laid-back. After claiming that the only way to deal with the Palestinian Authority was a large-scale attack, Netanyahu was asked by one of the participants whether or not the United States would let such an attack come to fruition.

“I know what America is,” Netanyahu replied. “America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in their way.” He then called former president Bill Clinton “radically pro-Palestinian,” and went on to belittle the Oslo peace accords as vulnerable to manipulation. Since the accords state that Israel would be allowed to hang on to pre-defined military zones in the West Bank, Netanyahu told his hosts that he could torpedo the accords by defining vast swaths of land as just that.

“They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo accords],” Netanyahu said. “I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the ’67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.”

Smiling, Netanyahu then recalled how he forced former U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher to agree to let Israel alone determine which parts of the West Bank were to be defined as military zones. “They didn’t want to give me that letter,” Netanyahu said, “so I didn’t give them the Hebron agreement [the agreement giving Hebron back to the Palestinians]. I cut the cabinet meeting short and said, ‘I’m not signing.’ Only when the letter came, during that meeting, to me and to Arafat, did I ratify the Hebron agreement. Why is this important? Because from that moment on, I de facto put an end to the Oslo accords.​
 
Well that is very interesting . Your the greatest Gustav . Did I tell you that before . Gustav is Great . Great Gustav !!
 
@spidergoat --

Yup, and who said that we were safe at that time?

@Me-Ki-Gal --

My wording was more aggressive sure, but my position has remained constant.
 
The Saddest thing is this whole shitty mess could have been averted if the whole region was gifted to the Arabs/Bedouin after they took Jerusalem in 1917. Why THE FUCK the English wanted to deal with the French to divy up this useless asshole of the world I will NEVER FATHOM.

What would have happened is Jews would have been given complete free access to Jerusalem(and let's face it, that's all they really need), just like the days of the early Arabs. It could have easily been enforced as a measure of a separate 1919 treaty with the Arab nation which could have started with some very very sweet affiliations with the west without satraps set up like Irak and other nations which were overthrown anyway. In other words, do everything that T.E. Lawrence and friends wanted.

Then...there would have been no way the Jews could be gifted that land after WWII(indeed if you subscribe to a bit of conspiracy theory, perhaps not even a WWII), and they would be spending their banking dollars on something much more constructive(hey we can hope).
 
The Saddest thing is this whole shitty mess could have been averted if the whole region was gifted to the Arabs/Bedouin after they took Jerusalem in 1917. Why THE FUCK the English wanted to deal with the French to divy up this useless asshole of the world I will NEVER FATHOM.



The British screwed up no mater were they stepped in look Africa even their own bloody island


What would have happened is Jews would have been given complete free access to Jerusalem(and let's face it, that's all they really need), just like the days of the early Arabs. It could have easily been enforced as a measure of a separate 1919 treaty with the Arab nation which could have started with some very very sweet affiliations with the west without satraps set up like Irak and other nations which were overthrown anyway. In other words, do everything that T.E. Lawrence and friends wanted.


Now could you define who are the Arabs


Then...there would have been no way the Jews could be gifted that land after WWII(indeed if you subscribe to a bit of conspiracy theory, perhaps not even a WWII), and they would be spending their banking dollars on something much more constructive(hey we can hope).[/QUOTE]
 
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