Why Hell?

[Lori_7]

Hell: Working Out the Bugs

Please, please, please don't make me actually quote Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man. Just pretend you read the book, and thus the counterpoint is perfectly obvious:

Zach Weiner, Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, June 27, 2011​

Just laugh. You know, it's supposed to be funny.

Never mnd.

yeah never mind because it's actually quite spot on, and not funny at all.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I have an older brother who studied the bible and went to school in that effort. I'll call him and see if he's willing to endure you unfaithful heathens by visiting this forum. I can't make any promises, but I will try.

Hey Now !! I am a faithful Heathen . Lets not get confused about it . Good heathenism takes a lot of faith

 

[nietzschefan]

Let's face it, according to the nonreligious, you live your life and then you take a permanent "dirt nap" ... no second chances, no rewards, no "passing over". And believers and nonbelievers alike know that "you can't take it with you". Then religions come along and offer alternatives.

I've been a Christian now for many years, and it's no mystery to me that eternal salvation or damnation is not the ultimate goal of our belief in Christianity because, according to our faith, we are not the ones who control those things. The ultimate goal is actually to change our behavior here on earth ... behavior control. Not "behavior control" in the natural sense (ie, how "I" choose to act and say), but perhaps in the "supernatural" sense of allowing a perfect force external to ourselves (ie, the Holy Spirit) to work through us. Because, as our faith tells us, we are imperfect and we can do no thing perfectly. We must seek help outside of ourselves.

When you look at it from this world's perspective, after you've passed over, the only things of you that will remain of you are what you've said and done. So, if you know about the only truly "good" way to act, and if you haven't followed it, then ... oh well ... perhaps no better than a dirt nap. A dirt nap means you will not be conscious of anything; but hell means you will be conscious of your failure.

For nonbelievers, this should be their only concern about hell ... that Christianity means you won't take a dirt nap, you will feel remorse/regret (to say the least).

Nothing done out of fear is ever "good". It is always done "out-of-character".

If god is all knowing, he can recognize a person hedging his bets to "get out of hell". That IS what religion has become, not so much the promise of heaven but the avoidance of hell. When one really really thinks about it, the descriptions of both places are VERY very close to the same thing. The difference is one is about pain and the other about pleasure. Any philosopher can tell you that pain is the father of pleasure...there is no knowing pleasure without knowing pain first. Any activity done for eternity, is madness.

Most Atheists are not murdering fiendish criminals many "believers" say is the consequence of losing God.

Think about that. They can still add to society and make it better despite not being told to do it. Really think about that....

 

[LIGHTBEING]

To the OP:

I'd like to substitute the word God with Religion however and go on like this.

Because Hell scares children (and some adults) into belief. Propaganda, Indoctrination and illogical reasoning is key to it's survival.

 

[wynn]

Let's face it, according to the nonreligious, you live your life and then you take a permanent "dirt nap" ... no second chances, no rewards, no "passing over".

This is not true, it is a misrepresentation of the non-religious positions.

I am not religious and I do not believe that after death comes a "dirt nap" if any kind. I simply do not have beliefs about what happens after death.

The ultimate goal is actually to change our behavior here on earth ... behavior control.

That is worldly ...

For nonbelievers, this should be their only concern about hell ... that Christianity means you won't take a dirt nap, you will feel remorse/regret (to say the least).

For me as a nonbeliever, Christianity means that in order to do right in God's eyes, I must do things that I find absolutely repugnant.

 

[Cifo]

#1 Nothing done out of fear is ever "good". It is always done "out-of-character".

#2 If god is all knowing, he can recognize a person hedging his bets to "get out of hell". #3 That IS what religion has become, not so much the promise of heaven but the avoidance of hell. #4 When one really really thinks about it, the descriptions of both places are VERY very close to the same thing. The difference is one is about pain and the other about pleasure. #5 Any philosopher can tell you that pain is the father of pleasure...there is no knowing pleasure without knowing pain first. #6 Any activity done for eternity, is madness.

#7 Most Atheists are not murdering fiendish criminals many "believers" say is the consequence of losing God.

#8 Think about that. They can still add to society and make it better despite not being told to do it. Really think about that....

1. Yes, the Bible says that someone scared away from one sin will run smack dab into another sin. I worked in substance dependence recovery, and I saw it happen again and again and again. I agree that only 5 to 10% of people seek Christianity because of fire and brimstone sermonizing (which I myself fervently avoid and discourage).

2. Right, and, as far as I can tell, he's not too keen on anyone "hedging a bet" with him.

3. Christianity is both because it only offers two choices. You can't have one without the other.

4. Well, according to almost everyone, even atheists, there's a world of difference between pain and pleasure. That why this thread is entitled "Why Hell?" instead of "Why Heaven?".

5. Good for those philosophers, but science won't back this up. There's definitely pleasure centers in the brain that when stimulated produce pleasure sensations without the subject ever having felt pain.

6. That's one person's opinion. Maybe this also means that the "infinite duration" theory of the ultimate fate of the universe means that our physical existence is madness.

7. I don't recognize this as part of the Christianity that I have known for several decades. Why would atheists supposedly be murdering fiendish criminals?

8. Does this mean that humans are naturally good? Nature over nurture? Because, I tell you what ... I've been involved in the raising of several children, and I've noticed that every one of them needed to be taught to be good (because it does not come naturally to humans) -- and it takes several years for them to be taught the various ways of being good. To begin with, babies are born 100% selfish.

This is not true, it is a misrepresentation of the non-religious positions.

#1 I am not religious and I do not believe that after death comes a "dirt nap" if any kind. I simply do not have beliefs about what happens after death.

#2 For me as a nonbeliever, Christianity means that in order to do right in God's eyes, I must do things that I find absolutely repugnant.

1. By "dirt nap", I mean "Game over, man" or worm food or etc. There's no scientific evidence of anything beyond death except decay and putrification. Therefore, not having any beliefs that there might be something after death leaves only a dirt nap.

2. Absolutely repugnant things? Examples, please. The military funeral protesters and the abortion doctor killers are not living the Christian life.

 

[wynn]

1. By "dirt nap", I mean "Game over, man" or worm food or etc. There's no scientific evidence of anything beyond death except decay and putrification. Therefore, not having any beliefs that there might be something after death leaves only a dirt nap.

No, it does not. It only leaves an open question.

2. Absolutely repugnant things? Examples, please. The military funeral protesters and the abortion doctor killers are not living the Christian life.

Absolutely repugnant such as blind faith or believing that it is love that God tortures the majortiy of His children in hell for all eternity.


And you have given an example of something repugnant as well, twice now when you misrepresent what "lack of belief" may mean to a non-religious person. Continuing to commit logical fallacies is repugnant.

 

[Cifo]

No, it does not. It only leaves an open question.

Hmm.... Someone who believes in an open question is an agnostic (see definition below). I think someone who says that the existence of God etc is questionable and yet does not address those questions is an atheist in disguise. I have yet to find an atheist/nonbeliever who believes that the possibility of an afterlife is an open question.

Absolutely repugnant such as blind faith or believing that it is love that God tortures the majortiy of His children in hell for all eternity.

God does not ask for blind faith. Reading the Bible, associating with other Christians, etc leaves blind faith in the dust. Blind faith is, for example, believing without any evidence whatsoever (as in blindly believing that there's an alien spaceship behind a comet and that committing suicide is a boarding pass).

Yes, believing in an eternal dirt nap is more convenient to the non-believer than believing in eternal damnation. Decisions produce consequences, but some people want to avoid the ugly consequences of their decisions. Perhaps it would help to think of eternal damnation as "eternal regret". The "eternal" part of it is a given, considering that the universe has been around for 14 billion years and, without evidence that there's any "wear on the tread", it's probably good for another 14 billion years or more.

And you have given an example of something repugnant as well, twice now when you misrepresent what "lack of belief" may mean to a non-religious person. Continuing to commit logical fallacies is repugnant.

As to "lack of belief", I define a non-believer or a non-religious person (as we have discussed it) as an atheist.

• An atheist rejects all religious belief and denies the existence of God.
• An agnostic questions the existence of God, heaven, etc. in the absence of material proof and in unwillingness to accept supernatural revelation.
• A deist, a historical term, was applied to 18th-century rationalists who believed in God as a creative, moving force but who otherwise rejected formal religion and its doctrines of revelation, divine authority, etc.
• A freethinker, the current parallel term, similarly implies rejection of the tenets and traditions of formal religion as incompatible with reason.
• An unbeliever is a more negative term, simply designating, without further qualification, one who does not accept any religious belief.
• An infidel is a person not believing in a certain religion or the prevailing religion.

I too find logical fallacies repugnant (ie, causing extreme dislike or distaste; aversion; antipathy).

Lastly, I will admit to something that most Christians won't: Many people have become jaded to Christianity due to the wholesale ineptitude/hypocrisy of Christians over the years and, furthermore, Christians in general have spiritually isolated themselves from the rest of society to the point where the gap has now grown into a yawning chasm.

 

[wynn]

Hmm.... Someone who believes in an open question is an agnostic (see definition below). I think someone who says that the existence of God etc is questionable and yet does not address those questions is an atheist in disguise. I have yet to find an atheist/nonbeliever who believes that the possibility of an afterlife is an open question.

Those definitions are relative.

God does not ask for blind faith.

You know what God wants??

Reading the Bible, associating with other Christians, etc leaves blind faith in the dust.

To me, it would require blind faith to read the Bible and associate with Christians.

Yes, believing in an eternal dirt nap is more convenient to the non-believer than believing in eternal damnation. Decisions produce consequences, but some people want to avoid the ugly consequences of their decisions. Perhaps it would help to think of eternal damnation as "eternal regret". The "eternal" part of it is a given, considering that the universe has been around for 14 billion years and, without evidence that there's any "wear on the tread", it's probably good for another 14 billion years or more.

Why do you believe in eternal damnation?

I listed two sources earlier in the thread that show that the doctrine of eternal damnation is not biblical. How do you comment on them?

 

[Cifo]

Those definitions are relative.

Those definitions are cut-and-pasted verbatim out of my modern (and secular) dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus, [electronic] (2005).

You know what God wants??

Because I've read the Bible. Can't get it from reading Cosmopolitan or Scientific American or the two sources you provided.

To me, it would require blind faith to read the Bible and associate with Christians.

And this you know without ever having read any of it? Well, best wishes then. You know where to go if you're ever curious.

Let me say something you won't hear hardly any Christians say. Many people I encounter seem jaded and skeptical about Christianity, most likely because of all the incompetent/hypocritical "Christians" that actually turn people off. I don't blame you if you feel jaded and skeptical.

That's why I'm not a Bible-thumper (besides, no one listens to me anyway). St. Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the Gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words." This means, show people Christianity by living it. Actions speak louder than words.

Why do you believe in eternal damnation?

I've read it in the NIV and the ESV Bibles. Once a Christian has matured, then it's not so much about reward or punishment ... it's just the right thing to do.

So some nonbelievers come close in calling eternal damnation a "dirt nap". In that case, as your brain produces it's last conscious thought, will you consider yourself proud of gathering all the toys you can't take with you, or proud of all the things you've done that now are totally worthless, or will you drift off satisfied that you've not only loved your neighbors, but loved your enemies too as well as helped the poor and needy?

I listed two sources earlier in the thread that show that the doctrine of eternal damnation is not biblical. How do you comment on them?

Now that's blind faith. What we need to do is something scientific. Find the passages in question and cite them to me. I have a copy of the Hebrew-English Tanakh (aka Masoretic Text), Jewish Publication Society (2003/5764), as it has been faithfully passed down among the Jews through the millennia, and then I can tell you what the Hebrew actually says.

 

[gmilam]

Those definitions are cut-and-pasted verbatim out of my modern (and secular) dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus, [electronic] (2005).

They're still wrong.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=95294

Find the passages in question and cite them to me.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death - not livng in eternal torment - death. The "soul" is not immortal.

 

[Lori_7]

Thats physical death g.

 

[gmilam]

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

I actually recommend the entire book of Ecclesiastes. It is most excellent.

 

[Lori_7]

Which is where the referenced eternal damnation comes from. Was that your point?

 

[Bowser]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm

Seems pretty extreme, Lori. Do you REALLY believe there's a Hell as such?

 

[wynn]

You know what God wants??

Because I've read the Bible.

So what if you've read it in the Bible?
The Quran or the Bhagavad-gita or a number of other religious texts would say different things about God.

Why should anyone trust the Bible above other religious scriptures??

Can't get it from reading Cosmopolitan or Scientific American or the two sources you provided.

...
Well, best wishes then. You know where to go if you're ever curious.

This kind of reply is what I call a typical Christian attitude ...

And this you know without ever having read any of it?

What makes you think I've never read any of it?

Let me say something you won't hear hardly any Christians say. Many people I encounter seem jaded and skeptical about Christianity, most likely because of all the incompetent/hypocritical "Christians" that actually turn people off. I don't blame you if you feel jaded and skeptical.

Well, you can now place yourself among those Christians who turn people off.

That's why I'm not a Bible-thumper (besides, no one listens to me anyway). St. Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the Gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words." This means, show people Christianity by living it. Actions speak louder than words.

If what you have shown so far here is "showing me Christianity by living it" - then I wish to never become a Christian.

I've read it in the NIV and the ESV Bibles. Once a Christian has matured, then it's not so much about reward or punishment ... it's just the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to believe that a god who punishes the majority of his children for all eternity, is a loving god?

So some nonbelievers come close in calling eternal damnation a "dirt nap". In that case, as your brain produces it's last conscious thought, will you consider yourself proud of gathering all the toys you can't take with you, or proud of all the things you've done that now are totally worthless, or will you drift off satisfied that you've not only loved your neighbors, but loved your enemies too as well as helped the poor and needy?

I don't know the future.

Now that's blind faith. What we need to do is something scientific. Find the passages in question and cite them to me. I have a copy of the Hebrew-English Tanakh (aka Masoretic Text), Jewish Publication Society (2003/5764), as it has been faithfully passed down among the Jews through the millennia, and then I can tell you what the Hebrew actually says.

They are cited there.

But here are some:

Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 (NIV)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NIV)
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

 

[John99]

To the OP:

I'd like to substitute the word God with Religion however and go on like this.

Because Hell scares children (and some adults) into belief.

Thats a bit of a stretch there.

To the OP, doesnt your puter have google?

Hell all you need to do is type "Hell" into the search box:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Eastern

:wtf:

 

[gmilam]

Which is where the referenced eternal damnation comes from. Was that your point?

Non-sequitor.

Some versions translate that line "as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

I'd advise that you actually read your Bible rather than just listening to the voices in your head. :bugeye:

 

[Lori_7]

Non-sequitor.

Some versions translate that line "as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

I'd advise that you actually read your Bible rather than just listening to the voices in your head. :bugeye:

and i would advise that you stop reading it if it's just a means to satisfy your ego-genda.

 

[Cifo]

So what if you've read it in the Bible?
The Quran or the Bhagavad-gita or a number of other religious texts would say different things about God. Why should anyone trust the Bible above other religious scriptures??

Because I studied and compared the major religions and philosophies. Let's straighten one thing out. The Christian God is different from other gods, so when someone talks about "God", I assume they mean the Christian God, not Allah, not Buddha, not Mithras, not Ahura Mazda, etc.

This kind of reply is what I call a typical Christian attitude ...

Only the Christian Bible describes the Christian God. It's kinduva tautology. See previous answer.

What makes you think I've never read any of it [the Bible]?

Because you said: "To me, it would require blind faith to read the Bible and associate with Christians." And you've indicated that you don't have blind faith. Therefore, you've never read the Bible or associated with Christians. I'm sorry that I'm only using scientific logic.

Well, you can now place yourself among those Christians who turn people off.

If what you have shown so far here is "showing me Christianity by living it" - then I wish to never become a Christian.

What have I done to offend you?

It's the right thing to believe that a god who punishes the majority of his children for all eternity, is a loving god?

Let me clear this up. When adult people know that the only way to live is to love their neighbors (and enemies), and those people reject that way of life, then they get punished. There's no do-overs or reincarnations in life. It's a one shot deal. For example, where in any of this have I shown hatred toward my neighbors (you) or my "enemies" (I don't know that I have any!). There's more about this below.

But here are some:

Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 (NIV)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NIV)
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Okay, these aren't in Hebrew, and they're not in the Tanakh. They are in the New Testament and they are in Greek.

Matthew 25:41,46 -- You don't have to worry about this because it's for Christians who see people suffering and refuse to help them. Matthew 25:34-40 is the first half of Christ's admonition to: #1 feed the hungry, #2 welcome strangers, #3 clothe the naked, #4 attend the sick, and #5 visit those in prison:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

And, when so-called Christians see someone hungry, lost, naked, sick or in prison, and they simply say "Hey, good luck, I wish you the best" and do nothing (and unless they repent ... because God is a forgiving god) -- they will go to HELL. Because they knew the right thing to do, and they paraded around as though they were Christians, but in their actions they weren't ... they were hypocrites. And if anyone is rubbed the wrong way by hypocritical Christians, guess what? Christ feels it more than anyone else and has the ultimate solution for them.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Again, let's read the verses ahead of this one.

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

This is pretty self-explanatory. People such as Hitler are burning in hell. Do you have any other verses?