Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Kaikoura New Zealand, 1978. Visuals, radar tracking, AND video.
Why does the government hide UFO's?
- Thread starter darksidZz
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Ivan Seeking
Registered Senior Member
Isn't there a problem with your logic here? By posting case after case, aren't you refuting the essential claim that the government is hiding something? Again, if they are hiding information, why are you able to post case after case?
If you consider classified documents, part of the problem is that the cold war left about a billion classified documents to sort through. Just as with some of the officially documented [military or intelligence] cases, the government seems to have no problem releasing the information if you know what to ask for through the Freedom of Information Act. That is how most of the files now available got that way.
If you want to go the conspiratorial route, Edgar Mitchell once told me that he doesn't think the government controls this information any more and hasn't for a long time. Private contractors now lay claim to the biggest secrets. He also claims to know people who have seen aliens first hand. I have no opinion on this matter but it does refute the claim that the government controls the information - a conspiracy theory wrapped inside of a conspiracy theory...
.This also begs the question as to why the government hasn't silenced people like Mitchell, or Gordon Cooper for that matter. Before he died he [Cooper] was very public about the alleged landing at Edwards AFB while he was in charge of test flights there.
The same can be said of many of the most famous cases, such as the missile test at Big Sur. Both the cameraman [Jacobs] and the Colonel in charge [Mansmann] have publically defended their claims for decades. Why were they not silenced? Why were they not bound by an oath of secrecy and silently prosecuted for going public? [Incidentally, I spoke with Mansmann's wife just before he died and he maintained the truth of this story until his death]
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Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
No...these cases are largely eyewitness accounts that occurred outside the province of the military. Many involved so many witnesses that any attempt at a coverup would've been futile. Others occurred outside the U.S. So that we have cases such as these doesn't refute anything the military has done to cover up it's own cases.
Who knows? If people go public anyway, how can the military stop them? Kill them?
"Following the large U.S. surge in sightings in June and early July 1947, on July 9, 1947, United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) intelligence, in cooperation with the FBI,[5] began a formal investigation into selected sightings with characteristics that could not be immediately rationalized, which included Kenneth Arnold's and that of the United Airlines crew. The USAAF used "all of its top scientists" to determine whether "such a phenomenon could, in fact, occur." The research was "being conducted with the thought that the flying objects might be a celestial phenomenon," or that "they might be a foreign body mechanically devised and controlled."[43] Three weeks later in a preliminary defense estimate, the air force investigation decided that, "This 'flying saucer' situation is not all imaginary or seeing too much in some natural phenomenon. Something is really flying around."[44]
A further review by the intelligence and technical divisions of the Air Materiel Command at Wright Field reached the same conclusion. It reported that "the phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious," that there were objects in the shape of a disc, metallic in appearance, and as big as man-made aircraft. They were characterized by "extreme rates of climb [and] maneuverability," general lack of noise, absence of trail, occasional formation flying, and "evasive" behavior "when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar," suggesting a controlled craft. It was therefore recommended in late September 1947 that an official Air Force investigation be set up to investigate the phenomenon. It was also recommended that other government agencies should assist in the investigation.[note 4]
Project Sign
This led to the creation of the Air Force's Project Sign at the end of 1947, one of the earliest government studies to come to a secret extraterrestrial conclusion. In August 1948, Sign investigators wrote atop-secret intelligence estimate to that effect, but the Air Force Chief of Staff Hoyt Vandenberg ordered it destroyed. The existence of this suppressed report was revealed by several insiders who had read it, such as astronomer and USAF consultant J. Allen Hynek and Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, the first head of the USAF's Project Blue Book.[45]
Another highly classified U.S. study was conducted by the CIA's Office of Scientific Investigation (OS/I) in the latter half of 1952 in response to orders from the National Security Council (NSC). This study concluded UFOs were real physical objects of potential threat to national security. One OS/I memo to the CIA Director (DCI) in December read:
the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention ... Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such a nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or any known types of aerial vehicles.
The matter was considered so urgent that OS/I drafted a memorandum from the DCI to the NSC proposing that the NSC establish an investigation of UFOs as a priority project throughout the intelligence and the defense research and development community. It also urged the DCI to establish an external research project of top-level scientists, now known as the Robertson Panel to analyze the problem of UFOs. The OS/I investigation was called off after the Robertson Panel's negative conclusions in January 1953.[46]
The Condon Committee
Main article: Condon Committee
A public research effort conducted by the Condon Committee for the USAF, which arrived at a negative conclusion in 1968, marked the end of the U.S. government's official investigation of UFOs, though various government intelligence agencies continue unofficially to investigate or monitor the situation.[note 5]
Controversy has surrounded the Condon Report, both before and after it was released. It has been observed that the report was "harshly criticized by numerous scientists, particularly at the powerful AIAA ... [which] recommended moderate, but continuous scientific work on UFOs."[10] In an address to the AAAS, James E. McDonald stated that he believed science had failed to mount adequate studies of the problem and criticized the Condon Report and earlier studies by the USAF as scientifically deficient. He also questioned the basis for Condon's conclusions[47] and argued that the reports of UFOs have been "laughed out of scientific court."[9] J. Allen Hynek, an astronomer who worked as a USAF consultant from 1948, sharply criticized the Condon Committee Report and later wrote two nontechnical books that set forth the case for continuing to investigate UFO reports."====https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object
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Ivan Seeking
Registered Senior Member
In some cases it is true that containment would be impossible. But then the claim is that many at Roswell were threatened. There are innumerable claims about men in black paying visits to silence witnesses. So what about all of those claims? And the government can intervene when there are matters of national security involved.
No, you silently prosecute them for violating their secrecy oath. You inform the families that that this is all classified and threaten to imprison them as well if they go public. You would never even have to acknowledge what it was for because it is all classified.
The question is, why does the government hide information about UFOs. What is the evidence that they are? The point I keep making is that there are volumes of information and much of it comes from the government. And I see no effort to silence witnesses, with one possible exception.
Trivia: Who is the alleged witness who went public, predicted his own death because he went public, and died about a year later?
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Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
This was already addressed in post #5.
You also say this:
Isn't that evidence of a govt coverup?
Don't know..
Ivan Seeking
Registered Senior Member
No, you address an alleged alien motivation, not why a government allegedly hiding information about UFOs routinely releases information about UFOs.
You don't see the obvious problem here? They are still talking! If they were truly threatened, they would be silenced because they didn't shut up. Hence, it's all bs. Bob Lazar is a great example. Were he truly a threat to the most classified information in history, he would be dead.
Good answer!
Hint, he was missing fingers, and claimed he was laid open like a fish, both due to an alien weapon.
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Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
No..I addressed why and what the govt is hiding. It's not their knowledge they are concealing so much as their ignorance and inability to come up with any explanation for the ufo phenomena. A government in charge of keeping its air space secure is not going to be forthcoming with reports of unknown craft flying around willy-nilly.
I see..so you say MIBs are visiting ufo eyewitnesses telling them to keep quiet but there's no evidence of a govt cover-up because the eyewitnesses won't obey them. Interesting..
Regarding Bob Lazar:
http://www.stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2011.01.07
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Ivan Seeking
Registered Senior Member
That statement doesn't mean anything. The title of the thread is, why does the government hide UFOs. I have shown clear evidence that they commonly release information about UFOs that doesn't attempt to explain them away. That doesn't prove they aren't hiding any information but it is inconsistent with a general cover up.
You are missing the obvious explanation: Many true believers think we are seeing a controlled release of information.
Again, that has nothing to do with what I said. I said the fact that people who were allegedly threatened, like Lazar, keep talking and are never silenced, is inconsistent with the notion of a vast conspiracy that has secret men in black who threaten people. Apparently the men in black are a bunch of wimps who make idle threats.
And that would be inconsistent with protecting the most classified information in history.Yes, good.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
That statement doesn't mean anything. The title of the thread is, why does the government hide UFOs. I have shown clear evidence that they commonly release information about UFOs that doesn't attempt to explain them away. That doesn't prove they aren't hiding any information but it is inconsistent with a general cover up.
You are missing the obvious explanation: Many true believers think we are seeing a controlled release of information.
So releasing information that was previously unreleased and classified is now evidence there was no cover-up. I'm not following your logic here.
Again, that has nothing to do with what I said. I said the fact that people who were allegedly threatened, like Lazar, keep talking and are never silenced, is inconsistent with the notion of a vast conspiracy that has secret men in black who threaten people. Apparently the men in black are a bunch of wimps who make idle threats.
I think sending creepy agents to your house to threaten you to remain quiet about seeing a ufo is evidence of some kind of cover-up. But even here the rabbit hole goes deep. Many reports of MIBs suggest they aren't with the govt at all but are agents of the intelligences behind the ufo phenomena itself. There are reports of them showing up at Bigfoot sightings, at the famous Mothman sightings, and even with people just playing with Ouija boards! It just gets weirder and weirder the more you look into this whole phenomena. I find the phenomena itself far more interesting than speculations about a govt cover-up.
http://humansarefree.com/2013/12/the-real-men-in-black-complete-accounts.html
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That's just plain dismissively silly to say.
How do you know what people have read?
The bone of contention is that most people do not accept extraordinary claims on grainy photographs and other flimsy evidence: They simply are not as gullible as some.
I've also read the book "The Bermuda Triangle" by Charles Berlitz:
And most of the cases are easily explainable and some even not within the Bermuda triangle bounds, but just used for the sake of sensationalism.
Ivan Seeking
Registered Senior Member
That is how the true believers explain it away.
You and Russ are a match made in heaven.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
That is how the true believers explain it away.
You and Russ are a match made in heaven.
Russ, or Ross, or whoever, isn't even a blip on my radar.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Radars exist, therefore aliens? lol! You can't even lie plausibly about what I think.
That's just plain dismissively silly to say.
How do you know what people have read?
The bone of contention is that most people do not accept extraordinary claims on grainy photographs and other flimsy evidence: They simply are not as gullible as some.
I've also read the book "The Bermuda Triangle" by Charles Berlitz:
And most of the cases are easily explainable and some even not within the Bermuda triangle bounds, but just used for the sake of sensationalism.
Is that right , pad ; Charles Berlitz. Oh please.
Try reading more serious books.
Actually Charles Berlitz is one of your's and MR's ilk: He also accepts the paranormal, supernatural and Alien UFO's without too much thought.
I have also read "The BB Never Happened" by another nut called Eric J Lerner and which was subsequently totally demolished by a real professional.
You see my friend, I do do some research although limited, rather than come on a science forum claiming [as some do
] that I am a professional researcher, when in actual fact those claiming that status, are no more than than a gullible follower.Too much X-Files and Millenium I suggest.
Actually Charles Berlitz is one of your's and MR's ilk: He also accepts the paranormal, supernatural and Alien UFO's without too much thought.
I have also read "The BB Never Happened" by another nut called Eric J Lerner and which was subsequently totally demolished by a real professional.
You see my friend, I do do some research although limited, rather than come on a science forum claiming [as some do
Too much X-Files and Millenium I suggest.
What serious books have you read about UFO's pad?
Other than the one already mentioned, there are no serious books about UFO's...Plenty of reputable scientific opinions though on how people really are just of that ilk of "I want to believe!"nonsense, and total gullibility.
But we have had all this out before, and I have given many logical reasons why UFO's although certainly valid [Why even I have seen one!]cannot be automatically construed as being of Alien origin.
What "serious" books have you read, riv?