Why do you need for there to be a hell and Satan?

Greatest I am said:
Who said we contribute to their persecution.
We do but that is not the issue under discussion.
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If they act in a way that warrants persecution, and if their acts are contingent on society, and if you are part of society you are the culpable one (at least according to your philosophy)

The issue is where they come from.

Society is who creates them.
We should recognize this and take our lumps.
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hence my question in what ways do you contribute
Instead we act all innocent like and put all the blame on the individual.
How nice for us. We then never have to look at what we are doing as a society and never have to change our stupid ways.
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that's why I am asking what stupid things are you doing
 
Greatest I am said:
Who said we contribute to their persecution.
We do but that is not the issue under discussion.

The issue is where they come from.

Society is who creates them.
We should recognize this and take our lumps.

Instead we act all innocent like and put all the blame on the individual.
How nice for us. We then never have to look at what we are doing as a society and never have to change our stupid ways.

Regards
DL
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a society that is based on competition more than merit will breed people who will use any means to climb ahead. that includes getting rid of competition instead of improving themselves. this is not truly survival of the fittest. this actually lowers the bar instead of raising it, even though on outward appearance it seems otherwise though life will go on.

the problem with a society that places value on people based on social status or money rather than who they are is that many people will just climb to the top for that reason alone. this is why it's not really a positive value to have in a society. when people are not worried about superficial values, then they can pay attention to doing what they actually are good at or have a passion for rather than doing things just because society won't give them the means to live well.

there are people who forgo their true passion or interest in life simply because it doesn't pay well or something else pays better. is this what society wants? those who are not really best suited for what they are doing?

a seamstress is not a top professional but they are needed and just as valuable. a farmer is not a ceo but they are needed or the ceo does not get fed either. everyone is valuable as everyone has some level of skill that can be put to use.

it's true. a society that is competitive will also produce criminals as well as cheaters as well as those they damage. society should take responsibility for those lumps as they created them.
 
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lightgigantic said:
If they act in a way that warrants persecution, and if their acts are contingent on society, and if you are part of society you are the culpable one (at least according to your philosophy)


hence my question in what ways do you contribute

that's why I am asking what stupid things are you doing
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A good example would be how we contribute to creating thieves.
How many of us have bought hot goods at some point in time.
That is collusion but we seldom think of it that way.

There is also much we contribute through omission.
Parents not raising their children the right way or indeed, forcing their children out into the streets is perhaps the best way to insure criminality.

Regards
DL
 
Birch

Well said and I agree. While reading your post, not that it is criminal particularly but it does lead to much that is ugly, is stripping.
How often have I heard it said. why bother with university or some other job. look at the money I can make just for taking off my clothes.

Damn the morals, go for the money.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
A good example would be how we contribute to creating thieves.
How many of us have bought hot goods at some point in time.


That is collusion but we seldom think of it that way.

There is also much we contribute through omission.
Parents not raising their children the right way or indeed, forcing their children out into the streets is perhaps the best way to insure criminality.

Regards
DL
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Ok so its inappropriate to suggest that a criminal can change their behavior but its not inappropriate to suggest that anyone else in society can.
:crazy:
 
Greatest I am said:
Why would it be? Society changes with every new law passed.

Regards
DL
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I'm not sure you follow.

You are saying that a criminal is incapable of changing their behaviour due to being a product of society. If everyone else is also a product of society (regardless whether they have the ability to change legislation or not), why talk about various things they can do to give criminals a clean break?

IOW if you want to argue that behaviour is inextricably connected to society, you don't have a foot to stand on since citizens would be just as powerless to adapt their behaviour as a criminal

:shrug:
 
lightgigantic said:
I'm not sure you follow.
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Because you are putting words in my mouth. No wonder I have been basically ignoring you.

You are saying that a criminal is incapable of changing their behaviour due to being a product of society.
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No. I said no such thing.

If everyone else is also a product of society (regardless whether they have the ability to change legislation or not), why talk about various things they can do to give criminals a clean break?
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That or pay to incarcerate them forever. We do not want to pay to warehouse people unless we have to.

IOW if you want to argue that behaviour is inextricably connected to society, you don't have a foot to stand on since citizens would be just as powerless to adapt their behaviour as a criminal

:shrug:
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All people can change.

Is your behavior not connected to how you were raised by your parents? Are they not a part of society?

Is your behavior then not connected to society?

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
All people can change.
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including criminals?

Is your behavior not connected to how you were raised by your parents? Are they not a part of society?

Is your behavior then not connected to society?

Regards
DL
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The problem is not that you are arguing that behaviour is connected to society.
The problem is that you are arguing that because behaviour is connected to society, one cannot be held accountable for it.
 
lightgigantic said:
including criminals?
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Sure. Why not?
The problem is not that you are arguing that behaviour is connected to society.
The problem is that you are arguing that because behaviour is connected to society, one cannot be held accountable for it.
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LOL.

I do no such thing. I argue that society has contributed to what he is and should own up to it.

This does not speak to not hold a person responsible for what they do. they must bear the largest burden of guilt but society has a share of it as it has helped to produce the criminal.

Regards
DL
 
lightgigantic said:
hence

Its more that when you start talking about a structure housing individuals (whether it is a family, an organization, a community or a nation) you are also talking about a need for reward and punishment
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Punishment is one thing. The endless purposeless torture of a soul is not punishment at all but would only be purposeless torture.

Punishment is given to change attitudes and thinking. If this is not to be a product of the torture then that torture is immoral.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Punishment is one thing. The endless purposeless torture of a soul is not punishment at all but would only be purposeless torture.

Punishment is given to change attitudes and thinking. If this is not to be a product of the torture then that torture is immoral.

Regards
DL
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Ergo, God is immoral and the real monster then, no need for Satan!
 
John99 said:
Its the same exact thing. Or do you argue: I dont like blue but i do like Blue.
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if someone knocks you out to steal your money instead of earning it, is that merit? no.

if someone abuses a child to feel better about themselves, is that merit? no.

that's someone who is actually lowering the bar by choosing not to improve themselves but taking the easy way by bringing another down.

pure competition can mean anything and there are people who do use any means they can get away with. in these type of instances, the reasons for their actions may not motivated by their strength, it's actually their weaknesses. therefore, they are propagating them. there are many instances of that in society.

not all competition is based on merit. it can 'appear' to be.
 
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Signal said:
And the only way to think of God is the way fire and brimstone Christians think of God! :eek: :rolleyes:
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Signal, we are talking about the concept of hell and Satan, which is a concept that comes from Christians. My point is their God is so immoral there is no need for them to create an alter ego!

Nowhere in my observation did I say or imply that this was the only way that I or others see God or do not see God.
 
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