Why do you need for there to be a hell and Satan?

[Socratic Spelunker]

Trust me or Google your favorite stats. You might not trust my sourse.

Regards
DL

Whether or not I trust a source is irrelevant if it is reputable. Can I please see your source here?

And I can't post links because I need 20 posts, total.

 

[HeartlessCapitalist]

I'm Jewish and as far as I know Judaism has no concept of hell.

AFAIK the rabbis who set down the Talmud were a little divided over the issue. All/most believed the "Gehenna of fire" will come -- which Jesus also talks about in the Christian scriptures -- but most believed it would be a temporary purgatory.

The Hell of burning fire is definitely in the Old Testament, though. From the Book of Isaiah:

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me [ie, God]: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jesus quotes that same bit in one of his fire and brimstone sermons in the Gospel. Mark:

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Not quite sure how the Rabbis reconciled Isaiah with their gentler view of the afterlife, but whatever.

You're right, however, insofar that the New Testament is a lot more insistent on reminding its readers of the hellfire than the Jewish Scriptures.

That sort of disproves hell. If Jesus was Jewish then he would not have believed in hell nor Satan. Which as far as I know, every single one of Jesus's encounters with Satan or hell has been when he was alone.

If he were alone then how in the world did the writers, whom wrote the gospels years after his death know what happened?

By the fundamentalist Christian position, all Bible books were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit (cf 2 Timothy 3:16). So going by their viewpoint they are essentially the product of prophetic evelation, and thus entirely reliable. Eyewitness accounts weren't needed.

By opinion was that Jesus did not believe in hell, that hell was created by the writers and the church to scare everyone into converting.

What Jesus the historical person believed is impossible to know unless one accepts the aforementioned Biblicist position. Me, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of his Hell preachings were at least mostly genuinely preserved, but we'll never know. The evangelists, though, certainly seem to have believed it.

 

[HeartlessCapitalist]

Why do you need for there to be a hell and Satan?

[Fundamentalist evangelical answer:] Because it says so in the Bible, aka Word of God.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

Given that you'll watch them anyway, I wouldn't be so sure. Accepting for the sake of the argument that Hell is real and reasonably accurately described in the Bible, it's really, really horrible, with fires burning you forever, demons torturing you and immortal worms gnawing at your flesh for all time. Emphasis on the last bit: It's eternal, literally forever. One everlasting moment of about as much pain and horror as you can imagine, stretched out for infinite googolplexes of years of time.

You'd have to have a really active imagination to think up a fate worse than that. It makes the Hades of the Greeks look like a picnic. In this scenario, I'll forgive anyone who chooses Heaven, if God will let him in.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2011, not 111.

If you say this to evangelicals, they'll just quote some scripture that says God never changes. Like this one:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

 

[Lori_7]

Good grief. Do you have attention deficit?
Speak to the last post or go away.

Regards
DL

i did speak specifically to the last post, you just didn't like my response.

submission isn't a burden without sin, it's inherent to law, for all of us. i don't think sin makes being a man any easier than being a woman. this argument is ridiculous.

 

[John99]

Lose the topic have you?
Go back and get it.
God is your sitter, not I.

Regards
DL

Your not all that complex. Sure the op's are hard to decipher, like a madman ranting.

University of Youtube?

 

[Greatest I am]

Whether or not I trust a source is irrelevant if it is reputable. Can I please see your source here?

And I can't post links because I need 20 posts, total.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat4.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173838,00.html

The more literally you read scripture and the more fundamental you are, the more likely you will believe in hell and Satan.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

[Fundamentalist evangelical answer:] Because it says so in the Bible, aka Word of God.



Given that you'll watch them anyway, I wouldn't be so sure. Accepting for the sake of the argument that Hell is real and reasonably accurately described in the Bible, it's really, really horrible, with fires burning you forever, demons torturing you and immortal worms gnawing at your flesh for all time. Emphasis on the last bit: It's eternal, literally forever. One everlasting moment of about as much pain and horror as you can imagine, stretched out for infinite googolplexes of years of time.

You'd have to have a really active imagination to think up a fate worse than that. It makes the Hades of the Greeks look like a picnic. In this scenario, I'll forgive anyone who chooses Heaven, if God will let him in.



If you say this to evangelicals, they'll just quote some scripture that says God never changes. Like this one:

We all know that we can make the Bible say almost anything.

I guess if I was up against the type of person you envisage, I would just give this and walk away.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Anyone too brain washed and thinking that God would go directly against scipture, I cannot and would not bother arguing with.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

i did speak specifically to the last post, you just didn't like my response.

submission isn't a burden without sin, it's inherent to law, for all of us. i don't think sin makes being a man any easier than being a woman. this argument is ridiculous.

Yes you are and no you did not.
I am done here.

Regards
DL

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Satan is an adults version of a childs monster under the bed belief or fear!

Try living next door to one of " Hells Angel " . Monsters can be real

 

[Enmos]

Monsters can be real

Monsters are real. They are everywhere.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

If it's not such a stretch, then where is it?

It lives in the future if we don't get our act together. Heaven and hell is dependent on what we do today . Every action has an opposite reaction and all that stuff yeah . We as people of the earth screw it up good today and tomorrow will be just a little closer to hell . Same could be said about heaven . The biggest misconception to Me is " you can't do nothing about it" I am telling you you can do something about it and it all starts with your self and as you make your self different it causes the people around you to change too. Like the way a good joke moves through out a community. Catalysts of change. Cats are animals of prey you know !!

 

[Enmos]

It lives in the future if we don't get our act together. Heaven and hell is dependent on what we do today . Every action has an opposite reaction and all that stuff yeah . We as people of the earth screw it up good today and tomorrow will be just a little closer to hell . Same could be said about heaven . The biggest misconception to Me is " you can't do nothing about it" I am telling you you can do something about it and it all starts with your self and as you make your self different it causes the people around you to change too. Like the way a good joke moves through out a community. Catalysts of change.

True enough.

Cats are animals of prey you know !!

I don't get this bit in relation to my question, but that's true as well

 

[lightgigantic]

Your God is no better than mundane society then? He could not find a better way than endless torture.

Its more that when you start talking about a structure housing individuals (whether it is a family, an organization, a community or a nation) you are also talking about a need for reward and punishment

Are you saying that Guantanamo should remain open and indeed be expanded to be closer to God's ideas?

No
Are you saying that we should decommission all jails and disband the police and army?

 

[Greatest I am]

Its more that when you start talking about a structure housing individuals (whether it is a family, an organization, a community or a nation) you are also talking about a need for reward and punishment

The good old carrot and stick.
All parents should discipline their children but if they get to punishment, it is likely because they failed to discipline properly and now use the stick on the one they have let down. A great way to hide their own shame and not have to face it. Your God does the same.

No
Are you saying that we should decommission all jails and disband the police and army?

Do they all torture?

Regards
DL

 

[wellwisher]

Satan and hell is a logical consequence of knowledge of good and evil. Law memory is binary in the sense that a law teaches us the good and evil of the law, at the same time. For example, stealing is a sin. The good side of the law is connected to not stealing and the postive personal and social feeling that will bring. The other side of the binarius law is connected to stealing and the evil, fear and punishment associated with that.

Since these scenarios are so opposite and mutually exclusive each side of the same law is stored in a different location in the brain based on emotional valence. The sum of all the evil sides of the known laws is consolidated in the symbol hell. These sides of the laws uses a reoccurring them of fear and punishment. It may be eaiser to see by looking ay who goes to hell; all those who follow the dark sides of law.

Whether one is conscious or not of all the evil and good sides of the law, both are stored in the brain via the unconscious. So when you obey the law, you also activate the dark side since they are part of the same coin. Prohibition creating temptation works that way. We may try to do good, but the binary data storage of law triggers both data sets. The result is an unconscious compulsion for balance. On the side of the law is self righteous and enforcement. They may do evil in the name of good, by an overly aggressive enforcement process; eating salt might be considered worthy of a beating or jail. One tries to good by the law but the hell trigger brings up behavior associated with hell calling this good

The concept of Satan changed with time. He was not always the Devil. Satan was originally Lucifer or the bringing of light. The initial polarization was not good and evil(heaven and hell) but a different two-sided coin, which brought unconsciousness into play via the repressed aspect of the polarization. The impulses were light or helpful. It may have been between natural instinct and the new human cultural instinct, when they move in different directions. The light was the unconscious paradox of trying to find middle ground leading to awareness.

 

[lightgigantic]

The good old carrot and stick.
All parents should discipline their children but if they get to punishment, it is likely because they failed to discipline properly and now use the stick on the one they have let down. A great way to hide their own shame and not have to face it. Your God does the same.

So meting out criminal charges is simply a cover up?
:shrug:

Do they all torture?

Regards
DL

Of course not.

a 20 year jail sentence is just like a holiday in the Caribbean, no?

 

[Greatest I am]

So meting out criminal charges is simply a cover up?
:shrug:

No. It is a reaction to society failing the individual.
We are all part of the systems that create these criminals and should own up to our contribution.
No one lives in a vacuum and alone. We all effect each other.

Regards
DL

 

[lightgigantic]

No. It is a reaction to society failing the individual.
We are all part of the systems that create these criminals and should own up to our contribution.
No one lives in a vacuum and alone. We all effect each other.

Regards
DL

So in what ways do you contribute to the persecution of criminals serving serious time?

 

[Greatest I am]

So in what ways do you contribute to the persecution of criminals serving serious time?

Who said we contribute to their persecution.
We do but that is not the issue under discussion.

The issue is where they come from.

Society is who creates them.
We should recognize this and take our lumps.

Instead we act all innocent like and put all the blame on the individual.
How nice for us. We then never have to look at what we are doing as a society and never have to change our stupid ways.

Regards
DL

 

[spidergoat]

Try living next door to one of " Hells Angel " . Monsters can be real

You lived next door to Mother Teresa?