Why do you love God?

[Enmos]

Not if we do not have free will.

This would mean, all of us are destined to have either, the nature of God, or His/Her's opposite... Satana Sofrasi.

If we don't have free will, how come I don't love God ?

 

[Enmos]

Please describe the reciprocation between yourself and nature/life.
How exactly does nature benefit from what you give it or take from it?

I have already described that. Besides, it's not that difficult to see.

He was quoting scripture.

Fair enough ,I'm not familiar with those scriptures.

Would you do the same if someone deliberately drove over a rat, or a rabid dog, or a snake that just bit you?

Yes.

Are you a vegetarian?

Really, that one is getting old Green..

I'd love to believe that!

I'm not surprised.

 

[Enmos]

Actually I was explaining how love primarily finds its expression in one of 4 relationships (servitorship, friendship, parental and conjugal) and that service plays a key part in all 4.
And as a further point, the higher you go up the scale, the more potential it has for greatness.

That means nothing to me. I think your view of love is impractical.

I am denying that love can exist in a complete vacuum of knowledge about the beloved. I mean if I wrote a poem about how much I love people in rural china and you found out that I had lived my entire life in NYC, what would you think?

I agree.
What would I think ? I would think you probably read a lot about them and you love their ways or something.

notice how you refer to nature in reference to "I" ("I need it to stay alive" "I am part of it") ....
as for the awe inspiring and interesting, that is more an issue of wonder than love (and yes, wonder does play a part in love, but love is also more sublime)

Hey, you told me to finish that sentence. You made it. You started it with "I". And besides, so what ?
As for the rest, so says you..

as already mentioned, you already referred to a person who loves a chair as insane, so these ideas are obviously not alien to you

This is the same semi-insult you came up with before.
I still don't know what the hell you are implying.

yet you can't indicate it outside of "I"

I can't ?

and especially how it houses your life
Its quite clear.
The reason you "love" nature is because you "love" your own life.
thats ok
most (sane) people do
My point is however that nature is merely a stage or background for whatever you love, and not an object of love.
I'm sure it wouldn't take too much imagination to come up with a list of things that would make you exhilarated (or alternatively, manically depressed) while nature could be running along just perfectly in the background.

Such arrogance. You are completely off the mark.

ok
so how does nature reciprocate with you in a way that she doesn't reciprocate with others?

It doesn't, it's the same for everyone.

sure
but I am just curious about your views on the subject

I don't believe in God, so for me there is no relationship other than the fact that certain people claim that there is.

no
its a how the theme of nature has been treated in western culture for the past 500 years ... and it contrasts to views of nature in eastern theology, or even arguably western theology if you look at the roots. I think you would be hard pressed to frame that statement as controversial.

I didn't know you were quoting scripture. Greenberg has already pointed that out to me.

yes, but god is the dynamic that makes that love work
for instance if my wife has brown eyes and I find them a lovable quality, I find them lovable because they are hers.... the value of brown eyes simply lies in the connection to her.

Do you realize how depressing that sounds ?
Also, you are basically saying that I cannot possibly love nature because I am an atheist.
:crazy:

Maybe we could use the word "treats" instead of service.
If you want to kill/don't like/like/love a person, that tends to arise from how they treat you (and as a further detail, that may arise from how you treat them)

No, not necessarily. Think about it..

Assuming that you were after the result of that person not doing such acts again, I guess you could analyze whether that was the best way to instigate such a state of being. Argumentum ad baculum tends to be the last recourse, although effective in particular time, places and circumstances.

So what would you do ?

If you did answer it, I obviously didn't understand. It might help explaining what you meant.
As for that last sentence of mine, it's truth. Deny it..

 

[Enmos]

This thread is quickly becoming sociopathic. Why would you want to know? Are you considering devoting your life to a god?

I agree, but not in the way you mean.

 

[NDS]

Option A of course

Wow, so you're ready to let a stranger be tortured and killed in order to fulfill your own happiness. Kind of selfish, don't you think?

What if the stranger was a young child, begging to not be brutally tortured and crying out to you? I don't think you'd be so quick to answer. At least I hope not.

So it is my understanding that it is impossible to "love God" or to know anything practically applicable about loving God, without first having some understanding of who/what God is.

Tell me everything you know about God. List format would be nice.

 

[greenberg]

Please describe the reciprocation between yourself and nature/life.
How exactly does nature benefit from what you give it or take from it?

I have already described that. Besides, it's not that difficult to see.

I don't see it, though. There isn't a single thing that I do or think I could do that would benefit nature. The best I can do is to minimize the harm I do to it - but I still do harm, on a daily basis. My mere survival causes harm and death to numerous other beings. I cannot make or take away rain, I cannot make or take away sunshine. I cannot undo pollution. I don't know what would be best for nature, but producing garbage and toxic runoff certainly isn't good for it. So there can be no talk about reciprocation between myself and nature, at least not a mutually beneficial reciprocation.

Fair enough ,I'm not familiar with those scriptures.

It's good to know the references one's interlocutor uses.

Would you do the same if someone deliberately drove over a rat, or a rabid dog, or a snake that just bit you?

Yes.

Have you ever done it?

Are you a vegetarian?

Really, that one is getting old Green..

What is your point?

If you eat meat, you are condoning that others (or yourself) deliberately kill animals.

 

[NDS]

This thread is quickly becoming sociopathic. Why would you want to know? Are you considering devoting your life to a god?

You don't know why God loves you? Let me help you out: God is a robot, just like you, without free will, and loves you because he's programmed to.

So you and God are electrical circuits. How poetic.


Reiku, Option A or B? If you don't make a decision, both people are tortured for days and later killed. What's the call? If you're indecisive, your responsible for the torturing and deaths of two people, one of which you love a lot.

That would be pretty cold of you to tell the kidnapper, "Sorry man. Both choices go against my principles. I can't decide. Just torture them both."

 

[Reiku]

Give me time to respond correctly.

 

[greenberg]

Wow, so you're ready to let a stranger be tortured and killed in order to fulfill your own happiness. Kind of selfish, don't you think?

And what if someone chose option B? Would you criticize them then too?

Tell me everything you know about God. List format would be nice.

There is a general consideration to be kept in mind about knowledge, lack thereof, and how this is connected to what claims we can rightfully make -

For example, I do not know anything about say, the Hadron Collider, I can't speak about it or make any claims about it. I actually know that. For the simple reason that I do not know what a Hadron Collider is, what it looks like, what it does. I only heard the name somewhere and that it has to do with physics, that is all. As such, it would be meaningless for me to make any claims about the Hadron Collider until I first educate myself about it.

Similar goes for other fields of knowledge. I don't know God, nor do I know God's qualities and so on. However, bearing this lack of knowledge in mind, I realize how important it is to know God or His qualities and so on in order to be able to speak about God and love for God. And I also know I would be wrong to make claims about God before I first educate myself about God.

 

[NDS]

Fine with me. Personally, I'd choose B. Although, if truly presented with the death of my loved one, I'd be very tempted to, and may very well choose A.

For example, if the stranger was young child, crying for me not to let him/her get tortured, then I'd probably go with B. If the stranger was Osama Bin Laden, I might easily choose A. But then again, he's not a stranger, so that wouldn't work.

 

[Reiku]

To all theists:

Why do you love God?
Why should I (or anyone) love God?

A) Without Him/Her, i would have no prupose, and as we all know, there is no meaning without any purpose. It is because of this purpose, i find meaning in my life to believe in a superintelligence.

B) I would never make that option for anyone. It's a personal one. And should remain so.

 

[Reiku]

Oh right... those options... wait lololol

 

[Reiku]

I dare not answer, since it depends deeply upon the situations.

 

[Reiku]

If we don't have free will, how come I don't love God ?

Because that is not free either. It's an illusory of the time dimension. There is, actually, overwhelming evidence today that physics itself seems to be saying, ''sorry guys, but everything is already written into the fabric of spacetime itself.''

 

[NDS]

And what if someone chose option B? Would you criticize them then too?

No, actually I thought Option B was the way more altruistic one, especially if the stranger is a child. I don't think I could live with myself if I let a young child be tortured, rather than die a quick death.

The whole situation is truly horrifying, but it's the only way to see where people stand.

 

[NDS]

I dare not answer, since it depends deeply upon the situations.

What if the loved one was a parent, and the stranger was a young child? That is one extremely difficult decision to make since torture is involved. I don't think I'm prepared to answer yet either. And I guess I have no way of knowing which one I would actually pick if thrown into that horrifying debacle.
I guess part of the equation depends on the level and duration of the torture. Still, extremely tough decision.

The question is: Is one willing to lose someone they love, and hence sacrifice their love and happiness to save someone else from suffering?

I know which one God would choose though. A, without even thinking twice. At least from what I currently know about God, which isn't much. God is willing to let people suffer and be tortured in order fulfill his need to be loved. I may be wrong, but from what I know and observe around me, that's who God is.

I guess the next question is, wouldn't be more unselfish for God to sacrifice his own need for love, and hence some of happiness, in order to avoid the unneccessary suffering of people?

 

[Reiku]

I would save the child, because of the morals behind them. Also because my parents have lived the greater parts of their lives, and a child has yet so many years.

 

[Reiku]

And no. God doesn't say that. Maybe from an old testiment viewpoint, or stance, then perhaps. But since the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was God, i refer you to the teachings of the living word, where he said it was the children who where important.

 

[NDS]

I would save the child, because of the morals behind them. Also because my parents have lived the greater parts of their lives, and a child has yet so many years.

Makes sense, I'd probably do the same.

Now what if the loved one was a wife/husband or brother/sister? Now it gets tricky. Not sure what I'd do if presented and given one minute to decide. That would be one hellish minute.

I'm not sure I could live with the guilt of letting someone else suffer to fulfill my own happiness and save my loved one.

 

[NDS]

And no. God doesn't say that. Maybe from an old testiment viewpoint, or stance, then perhaps. But since the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was God, i refer you to the teachings of the living word, where he said it was the children who where important.

Did your God create the universe and humans intentionally, or unintentionally? Did he consciously decide to create us for a purpose, or are we by-products of him like in some eastern religious sects?