Why Do You Believe?

Athelwulf said:
Here's my thinking behind the idea of "being taught the truth". Hopefully, this will clear up some misunderstanding.

Consider, for example, a person who grows up being told by his parents that African Americans are evil. Most likely, that person is gonna believe his parents, and grow up to be racist against Blacks. That person will come to the conclusion that if his parents say Blacks are evil, they must be evil.

I have figured that this could happen with religion as well. What do you think?
It's an interesting example, and I think I'm qualified to answer it, being first generation post-apartheid South African.

Certainly, there are some people who aren't willing to think for themselves - but that's dangerous in all areas of life, not just religion. But the reality is that most people aren't that stupid. If it was a rule, then we would all still have been British imperialists. People develop identities no matter where they start from, and they modify their perceptions as they come into contact with people who don't share their prejudices. Maybe if someone grows up in an exclusively racist community, in isolation, they would not "know" any better.

Belief in God works a little differently, because we get to know a relationship within a relationship. Parents just relay the information, but you get to grow up among people who already lives in the relationship they promote, and you get to judge them by that.

It's unfortunate that half-hearted parents try to indoctrinate their children - I'm sure that happens, and I don't support that. I have friends whose parents were staunch racists, but they sort of lost their identity when the walls came down. My own family were square centre among the traditionally conservative "official" church that was supposed to support apartheid, but I never became racist, even though I became a Christian. So if there is a causal connection somewhere, you'll have to look further than upbringing alone.
 
Who, Lion-o? He's a Thundercat - hardly a "white guy" - not even human, to be precise.
 
You can't be taught truth, you can only be shown where to find it, and which path those who found it has walked thus far. If the path and the truth doesn't coincide, they should be seriously reconsidered before following them.

True!! I wonder why then there not more atheists?. This is exactly how I determined the outcome of my atheism as a choice. I searched for truth, however didn't find it in religious belief, but through reason and logic.

I've been a Catholic (childhood) Christian (Teenager) Babtist (late teens) Atheist since the age of 21. It was not an overnight decision.

Why I believed?

Since childhood, one is tought religious beliefs, since childhood, you are indoctrinated without "choice" into your parents beliefs, to contradict them is not tolerated on this matter. Your a child you don't know better, however you are manipulated to belive religious dogma. Some of us grow out of it!. EVOLVE! Some fear to leave it, or search for other doctrinations, some of us search in vain to find the truth! When it's right in front of you! Truth is existence exists, not created, never ending, and only by the use of reason & logic can we get to knowledge. There's lots we don't know, however I don't consider anything is unknowable.

Godless.
 
Universal morality: There is an instrinsic aspect to humanity of right and wrong on some basic level and a level of communial existance. The fact that man has the concept of right and wrong, conceptually speaking, even with some variance, and good and evil dictates some devine inspiration. Man outside of this has very few instincts. Sociopaths are a standard diviation...Many cultures have similar taboos and morays without similar cultures.

Universal organization. In a universe where most --more than 95 % right? is made up of the two simplist atoms hydrogen and helium I don't see how the rest of the elements could have come to light without some guidance.....I cant' see a reason for them to exist without guidance or inspiration. Tilt of the planet is perfect for life. Distance of sun is optimal...speed of earth is optimal and the elemental organization is condusive to life.....much more organized than my room.....i couldn't cut it in the divinity cirlces....

Soul....As I understand it even the scientific community has come to a general agreement to the existance of a soul. The soul has no purpose or reason to be other than through devine inspiration.

Emotions: many of the emotions that we have such as love, tenderness, jealously ect have a very marigninal need in a strickly biological enviorment......after a mother's maternal instinct why do the others exist except for

Inclination of a God diety. Michael Shermer called it our God gene. Man has a propensity towards spirtual guidance. A biologically useless mechanism if there was no binding universal force or higher power.


St Thomas Aquinas outside mover theory holds water to me. If (and I am not sure) Einstein's theory that energy cannot be created or destroyed is considered true and valid than all this energy came from somewhere.....

pizzas here gotta go.....
 
Universal morality

There's no such thing as Univeral morality. Morality is define by each civilization, culture, and society. For instance, back in the days of old refering to the bible is perfectly moral to stone to death a woman who has commited adultery. Today we find such an act repungnant, and therefore not moral!.

The basic aspect of right and wrong you speak off, only happens for the benefit of society as a whole. Men learnt to tolerate one another. For their own survival.


The fact that man has the concept of right and wrong, conceptually speaking, even with some variance, and good and evil dictates some devine inspiration.

There's no divine intervention, really if that's the case then there would have never been wars. Different "moralities" clash with one another. Hence people of one religion attack others for not believing as they do, they differentiate by other aspects as well, but divine morality is a canard.

Anyhow you give your reasons why U believe, what ever makes you happy.


Universal organization. In a universe where most --more than 95 % right? is made up of the two simplist atoms hydrogen and helium I don't see how the rest of the elements could have come to light without some guidance.....I cant' see a reason for them to exist without guidance or inspiration.

The universe is in chaos, there's no divine order.
see
look here too.

Thounsands of religions, none of them rational.

Godless.
 
There is univesal morality just not an absolute adherence to it. Find a culture where people find killing one another or stealing from one another as something other than negative. There are questionable aspects like incest that is practiced in some cultures but there are somethings that seem as intrensic as breathing to us but moralitistically. We do have the freedom of choice to not adhere to those feelings though.

I would have to say that there is enough order for life and any more is maybe not neccessary....

about the happy part...not trying to flame you or anything ...but i have noticed you are really a "glass is 1/2 empty (or all empty) kinda guy" a real pessimests pessitmist......why is that?
 
(Words and music by Erwin Drake, Irvin Graham, Jimmy Shirl, Al Stillman)
I believe, for every drop of rain that falls,
A flower grows...

I believe that somewhere in the darkest night,
A candle glows...

I believe for everyone who goes astray,
Someone will come, to show the way,
I believe, I believe...

I believe, above the storm the smallest prayer,
Will still be heard...

I believe, that someone in the great somewhere,
Hears every word...

Everytime I hear a newborn baby cry,
Or touch a leaf, or see the sky,
Then I know why, I believe!

I believe, above the storm the smallest prayer,
Will still be heard...

I believe, that someone in the great somewhere,
Hears every word...

Everytime I hear a newborn baby cry,
Or touch a leaf, or see the sky,
Then I know why, I believe!

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/ibelieve2.htm

Addition:

I believe because I decided to.
 
enton did you become a christian, when you became an adult, or have you always been a christian?.
 
geeser said:
enton did you become a christian, when you became an adult, or have you always been a christian?.
I`m coming to my third year being a christian.
 
geeser said:
I feel sorry for you, but a least you did choose that path.

Dear Geeser:

Don`t feel sorry about me. Anyway, I assure you that you`ve never met christians in person. Maybe, you`ve heard about them, but one thing is for sure, you have never talked a christian live in person.

Anyways, I belong to the old path.

Enton Ces
 
7x7, the problem with muslims is that they can't spell or use correct grammar, and love to murder "infidels"........:D
 
marv said:
7x7, the problem with muslims is that they can't spell or use correct grammar, and love to murder "infidels"........:D
Are we discussing thoughts and beleifs or we are discussing grammer and languages ? or is it politics we are talking about ?
My friend, It seems that you are very subjective in your message.
You mentioned in the first part of your message that :
marv said:
7x7, the problem with muslims is that they can't spell or use correct grammar D
Indeed that is not a problem of muslims, as English lanuage is not their majority's mothertongue language. One should remind you that the majority of muslims speaks other languages than English. Moreover, the British mention the Americans are spoiling the English language. So the problem should be with the people who do not know how to use there own language properly.
On the other hand, you accuse muslims as people who
marv said:
love to murder "infidels"........:D

One should question, what do you know about Islam ?
How did you get your information about Islam, if you have any ?
What do you know about history ?
Have you read or heard about the Spanish Inquisition ? Who held it ?
They were the christians against the Muslims in Andaluthia.
Against Whom were the invation of the Chrusades, and what they have done when they conquered Jeruselam ?
Against muslems and when they entered the holy city they slottered its residents to the extent that deads were floating over blood.
Who were the first to use atomic bombs against humans ? Christians in WWII.
Who killed the red indians and stole their lands ? Christians
Who started the fist world war and the second world war ? Christians.
Who enslaved the Africans and loaded them to America ? Christians.
These are just few events to show you who are the "infidels" and who "love to murder."
Read my friend, do not be misguided with hatred and misunderstanding.
Open your mind and heart and do not judge muslims with the act of some outlaws.
There are many people who have the interest in spoiling the image of muslims and hence islam.
Read and be aware of whom you are reading to.
Peace be upon you
That is our greeting in Islam
 
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One should question, what do you know about Islam ? How did you get your information about Islam, if you have any ?

After reading the Quran, one knows that the Prophet clearly condemns anyone and everyone as "infidels" to be killed in all manner of means who do not agree with the Prophet.

That is our greeting in Islam

Thanks, when and in what manner will you be wanting to kill me?
 
(Q) said:
One should question, what do you know about Islam ? How did you get your information about Islam, if you have any ?

After reading the Quran, one knows that the Prophet clearly condemns anyone and everyone as "infidels" to be killed in all manner of means who do not agree with the Prophet.

That is our greeting in Islam

Thanks, when and in what manner will you be wanting to kill me?

You mentioned that you read Quran. :confused:
Please point out for me the verse or verses in Quran which states that muslems should kill all those who do not agree with the prophet.
I am sure it will be a very hard job for you, as you will not find such a verse!!
What would one get If one got you killed ? Is this the world that we seek.
When you read Quran, you shall find that killing is a sin.
A muslim is not allowed to kill unless he is defending himself, his family, or his nation. He should not invade those who are in peace with him.
The word Islam in arabic comes from the word peace.
Islam is the fastest growing religon in the world, how would it be that bad if people are converting to Islam in hug numbers ?
Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years.
Muslims are about 26% OF THE WORLD"S POPULATION.
In North Amercia (1989-1998) muslims increased by 25%. Europe 142%, Australia 257%.
The number has been taken from The CIA World's Facts Book.

Peace be upon you.
 
Please point out for me the verse or verses in Quran which states that muslems should kill all those who do not agree with the prophet.

Ok!.

2: The Cow

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174

How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

I think that's a nice start!.

Godless
 
Outside of our minds we all belong to each other; by one way or the other. Due to this reason we are psychologicaly and to an extent biologicaly constantly trying to find our own identity, modernization, capitalism , and individualism are here to make sure of that. To believe in something is wonderful but to believe in debt is a curse of one's morality, honor, and an abuse on one's little time of existence in life. I see many religion as debt, a big prison built around a smaller lavish mansion. I have no reason to entrust my hope and life to anybody I haven't met because even humans will readily accuse you sometimes much less the being that supposedly created them. I never asked to be created but now I have to ask to be saved, something is very wrong here. If I were God I will be worried about who created me also, after all intelligent minds think alike, much less father and son. Politicians have always found ways of protecting their interest and the teaching of many religion just resembles these ways. Otherwise why will God order us not to eat pork but coincidentaly the pig was a great symbol of wealth. A lot of people are more naive than many people believe and thats a fact, especially when it comes to dreams. Aside all this blah blah blah I sort of want something else to exist, something beautiful and something I can relate to; "relate" in latin meaning religion. "Many religion are a projection of our dreams" says Sigmund Freud. Everybody has dreams and religion just fills in this void. Dreams are what makes us sleep at night. A little bit of everything is the best attitude even towards dreams and freedom. I am still agnostic and these are my humble opinion.


"In every age and time the priest is always hostile to freedom" --Thomas Jefferson

"The participant's perspectives are clouded while the bystander's views are clear" Chinese proverb
 
enton said:
Dear Geeser:

Don`t feel sorry about me. Anyway, I assure you that you`ve never met christians in person. Maybe, you`ve heard about them, but one thing is for sure, you have never talked a christian live in person.

Anyways, I belong to the old path.

Enton Ces
and I'm sure he's never likely to meet a true xian, ever.
it's extremely unlikely theres one on this planet, biblically speaking.
 
Please point out for me the verse or verses in Quran which states that muslems should kill all those who do not agree with the prophet.
I am sure it will be a very hard job for you, as you will not find such a verse!!


Heres a few more in addition to super's list:

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

(Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

Would you like me to fill up a couple of pages with similar quotes?
 
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