Why do people join the occult?

[SkinWalker]

Your observations and conclusions are misleading. You're discounting the possibility that one or more people took the poll and either didn't read the choices; read the choices and lied; or didn't understand the choices.

I'd suggest looking at existo_human's responses, for instance.

The "I don't know; I don't believe in god or gods" choice is ambiguious. There aren't enough choices to effectively study peoples opinions, either. In the question of whether cult groups actually use human sacrifice in contemporary times, a wider range of choice would have been better: "strongly disagree - somewhat disagree - disagree- agree - somewhat agree - strongly disagree" But the poll system of the forum is very rudimentary, so it probably wouldn't have been possible.

Still, I must say it's interesting to see what people's beliefs are with regard to cults other than their own. Interesting poll, Woody.

For those that believe other cults practice "human sacrifice," do they have any credible evidence of this? Particularly with regard to the alleged "satanic cults" that are said to exist in Western societies.

 

[Woody]

There are three articles about ritualistic cannibalism (anthropophagy) in Guinea.

We studied this in my college anthropology course. The brain-eaters believe they acquire the properties of whoever's brain they eat. It is a ritual they practice. I never thought of this as occult, but I believe it falls in the category.

By the way, they can get a brain-wasting disease that is similar to mad cow disease.

Am I the only person here that took anthropology in a secular university?

 

[SkinWalker]

I'm an anthropology major, Woody. But those cases are of cannibalism. Not sacrifice. The victims of Kuru ate the brains of ancestors (primarily) but do not sacrifice them first.

What else have you?

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker,

I have the Wikepedia:

Wikepedia on History of Cannibalism

Here's one in Ireland:

Chalres Manson's followers

Here's one about Charles Manson in the US:

Sharon Tate Murder

here is another interesting but long thread on waht makes serial killers tick. They aren't necessarily insane:

serial killers

 

[SkinWalker]

Your question: "why do people join the occult?" is an interesting one, but one that suffers from a lack of literature review.

First, let's define "occult." From a truly objective and detached perspective, the occult refers to all that is related to the supernatural and paranormal. This would include Christianity, but for the sake of discussion and in recognizing that there are many who would not accept that in the definition, let's exclude it. But we'll likely come back to it. We already discussed the Latin origin of the word, so let's look at the Oxford English Dictionary (draft revision, Mar. 2004) entry:

occult – The realm of the unknown; the supernatural world or its influences, manifestations, etc.; (collectively) magic, alchemy, astrology, and other practical arts of a secret or mysterious nature

This would also include the belief in ESP, reincarnation, psychic healing, and UFOs, etc. since these are all things that "transcend the explanatory power of mainstream science" (Gray 1991)

Stark and Bainbridge (1980) discuss the Deprivation Theory, in which believers/participants in the occult are looking for ways to satisfy the strains of socio-economic status –both psychologically and physical. People who believe in the religious occult are typically women, African American, and less educated and are more likely to believe in concepts of hell, heaven, Satan, and creationism than men (Goode, 2000). Goode also points out that women are more likely than men to believe in ghosts, channeling, ESP, astrology, etc., but men are far more likely than women to believe in UFOs and alien visitation.

There are two working hypotheses with regard to the relationship of the occult with traditional religion (which is what I think you're looking at): 1) that those that are given to traditional religious beliefs, such as lay Christians, will reject the occult because of the rejection placed upon it by their religious hierarchies; and, 2) those that are given to accept the occult are also (or have also) given themselves to accept traditional religious beliefs, such as Christianity.

There is mixed results in the empirical studies conducted on these hypotheses, however. Sparks (2001) as well as Bainbridge and Stark (1980) discuss the inverse relationship between church attendance and the occult. Goode (2000) and Orenstein (2002) both maintain that traditional religion and the occult are statistically unrelated, but Orenstein says, "the available studies do not clearly show whether religious belief is positively related, negatively related, or unrelated to paranormal belief."

Rice, on the other hand, conducted a study (2003) in which it was found that "people pick beliefs "cafeteria style" rather than being constrained by traditional religious dogma or social structures. The result should be a more even distribution of beliefs across social background variables, consistent with the weak correlations found in Table 2." I've included Rice's questionnaire and results as a PDF attachment if you're interested.

Rice's article in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (2003) was the source of much of the literature I cited above, but, with the exception of two of the books, I have those original sources and they are a wealth of knowledge to anyone interested in the occult or paranormal. I've cited many of them in the past and borrowed the two books I don't have from my university library.

One other book that I've noticed as being cited quite often is the Satanic Panic: The Creation Of A Contemporary Legend by Jeffrey S. Victor. (Chicago: Open Court, 1993). I haven't read it, but there was an in-depth review in JSSR that concluded with "[t]he Satanism scare and its scapegoating are causing genuine social damage. In addition to its contribution to our understanding of rumor panics, Victor's careful study sheds important light on the foundations of this pernicious social movement."

One last source for Satanic occult information, which is what I suspect you are truly interested in, is Special Agent (FBI) Kenneth V. Lanning's report: Satanic Ritual Abuse: A 1992 FBI Report. I haven't read it in some time, and I certainly don't know what kind of site this is that I linked to –I simply searched for "Lanning Satanic" in google- but, as I recall, he dispels much of the mythology and urban legend that surrounds the so-called Satanic Cult problem.


References:

Bainbridge, W. S. and R. Stark. (1980). Superstitions: Old and new. Skeptical Inquirer 4(4):18-31.

Goode, E. (2000). Paranormal beliefs: A sociological introduction. Prospect Heights, IL: Waveland Press

Gray, W. D. (1991). Thinking Critically About New Age Ideas. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth.

Rice, T.W. (2003). Believe It Or Not: Religious and Other Paranormal Beliefs in the United States. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 42, Issue 1

Sparks, G. G. (2001). The relationship between paranormal beliefs and religious beliefs. Skeptical Inquirer 25(5):50-56.

Stark, R. and W. S. Bainbridge. (1980). Toward a theory of religion: Religious commitment. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 19:114-28.

 

[SkinWalker]

Skinwalker,

I have the Wikepedia:

Wikepedia on History of Cannibalism

Here's one in Ireland:

Chalres Manson's followers

Here's one about Charles Manson in the US:

Sharon Tate Murder

I'm not arguing that you cannot demonstrate that there are some mentally ill or extremely sociopathic criminals in a world of 6 billion. But in contemporary western society, you won't find evidence of ritual sacrifice of humans or cannibalism of the same. Not unless you site isolated criminals like Dahmer or Manson, etc. My point is that there are no data to support the notion of organized Satanic cults beyond small, localized groups that are engaging in counter-culture activity and certainly not interconnected and sacrificing humans.

It just doesn't really happen. This is largely a myth pepetuated by Christian organizations perhaps to "herd the flock" and maintain membership.

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker:

What do you think about this link? Just more hysteria?


http://www.missingpersons-ireland.freepress-freespeech.com/alphabeticalists.htm

 

[SkinWalker]

Probably just bullshit. Can you link to or cite any real literature? Perhaps an actual newspaper and not a tabloid?

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker said :

Probably just bullshit. Can you link to or cite any real literature? Perhaps an actual newspaper and not a tabloid?

Yeah, I didn't care much for his review on the fundamentalist movement. I thought it was a lot of BS.

By the way Skinwalker, I understand you are an anthropologist. Our anthro teacher told us about the tribe in Borneo. They believed they could acquire the characteristics of whatever brain they consumed. If it was the brain of a tiger -- they became like a tiger, etc.

He went on to say it was dangerous to be a chief or anyone with desirable characteristics, because it was common they got their heads bashed in. Hate to be funny here, but the cannabils wanted a piece of their minds -- literally.

Their practices lead to a brain-wasting disease, like mad cow diesease.

So if you go over there, act like you are in bad shape and they'll leave you alone, so I hear.

 

[SkinWalker]

The "eat the brain" thing is sympathetic magic, somewhat like imatative magic, but the person believes that by consuming something he/she can take on traits of that thing -or person. With imitative magic, the practitioner imitates something -such as an animal- to take on traits.

Of course, these are beliefs in their heads and there's no actual transfer of power beyond the few calories involved in digestion.

I read an anthropologist's report of a Western African culture he was studying where they refused to believe he was white. Because he was so in-tuned with their culture and actually learned their language and rituals, something that no other white person had done, they believed that he was a descendant of their tribe that put on a "white suit" every day. There were even those that claimed to have seen him putting it on or taking it off!

That wasn't really related to your topic, but I was just reminded of Nigel Barley's ethnography.

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker said: The "eat the brain" thing is sympathetic magic, somewhat like imatative magic, but the person believes that by consuming something he/she can take on traits of that thing -or person.

Woody: My anthropology teacher said the cannibals would kill other people and eat their brain to acquire the qualities they coveted. Are you in agreement or do you disagree with my anthropology professor at UNC-Chapel Hill? If they believe magic is involved, then I think it would fit the description of magic ritual. Do you agree or disagree?
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SW: Of course, these are beliefs in their heads and there's no actual transfer of power beyond the few calories involved in digestion.

Woody: and a brain-wasting disease they get as a result of this cursed practice.
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Skinwalker concerning ritual sacrifice: It just doesn't really happen. This is largely a myth pepetuated by Christian organizations perhaps to "herd the flock" and maintain membership.

Woody: I hardly ever hear it mentioned until the missionaries come back from Africa, South America, or Indonesia. Some christian missionaries have ended up on the cannibal dinner table. Understandably this does not motivate christian missionaries to leave the comfort of the civilized world and preach in these primitive places. But they take the risks, and some have given their lives. Some of the tribes have converted to christianity after killing and eating the missionaries. This is definitely not funny.


When did human sacrifice rituals stop happening? Have you read about the infant sacrifices to Moloch during biblical times? Parents sacrificed their children to this god:

Wikepedia: Tophet is Molech, which was made of brass; and they heated him from his lower parts; and his hands being stretched out, and made hot, they put the child between his hands, and it was burnt; when it vehemently cried out; but the priests beat a drum, that the father might not hear the voice of his son, and his heart might not be moved.

More about Molech

In the bible it says the parent's geneology will be erased forever. Here are just a few of many many verses on Molech:

Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Jerimiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

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Skinwalker said: One last source for Satanic occult information, which is what I suspect you are truly interested in, is Special Agent (FBI) Kenneth V. Lanning's report:

Woody: Thanks, I have read the report. It is pretty uneventful.

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Skinwalker: "the available studies do not clearly show whether religious belief is positively related, negatively related, or unrelated to paranormal belief."

Woody: Dave Benoit says the occult is strongest in the southern USA, where the bible belt is located.

 

[Woody]

Snakelord: But there is the problem.. The links do not lead to any newspaper sites - just another webpage on his own site.

Mis-t-high: facts please woody, thank you

Skinwalker: concerning ritual sacrifice: It just doesn't really happen

Woody: OK I'm doing some digging, Here is what I get so far. See if this information on satanic rituals is better. I'l try to stick with US articles, where the evidence is maintained a little better:

Satanic Ritual in Tennessee

Here are some of the stories I'm working on, the first story is linked to a newspaper in the previous thread.

Satanic Rituals and Human Sacrifice

 

[SkinWalker]

My anthropology teacher said the cannibals would kill other people and eat their brain to acquire the qualities they coveted. Are you in agreement or do you disagree with my anthropology professor at UNC-Chapel Hill? If they believe magic is involved, then I think it would fit the description of magic ritual. Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree. All available evidence on the Fore culture of New Guinea indicates that the practice of cannibalism was a funerary ritual with origins in providing protein to women. The men primarily ate small game that they hunted, but protein was in short supply for women and children. I don’t remember if the children also consumed human flesh (including brains), but the majority was women. The result was the transmission of the disease caused by a prion (a malformed protein).

The practice of cannibalism in ancient cultures has been suggested by many to be common or frequent, but this is based upon the archaeological remains that we note certain cut marks and processing on. It could very well be that these cut marks aren't for butchery for consumption, but rather a funerary method of preparing the body for internment, an afterlife, etc. There is little evidence that can conclude it happened in antiquity –making a few isolated cultures and periods the extent to which it occurred. Indeed, no anthropologist has ever observed cannibalism, even among the Fore where we are relatively certain it occurred (Arens, 1979).

and a brain-wasting disease they get as a result of this cursed practice.

"Cursed?" That would imply some form of paranormal act, but if memory serves correct, the prion was only present in a minority of people and the disease was statistically less prevalent than coronary disease or alcoholism in the contemporary United States. It began among the Fore in the 19 th century and was abolished in the 1950s.

I hardly ever hear it mentioned until the missionaries come back from Africa, South America, or Indonesia. Some christian missionaries have ended up on the cannibal dinner table. Understandably this does not motivate christian missionaries to leave the comfort of the civilized world and preach in these primitive places. But they take the risks, and some have given their lives. Some of the tribes have converted to christianity after killing and eating the missionaries. This is definitely not funny.

Don't get me started on the stupidity of missionaries. They get what they deserve for screwing with the indigenous peoples of the world. Fuck 'em. But aside from that, the stories of cannibalized missionaries is probably anecdotal, though I've no doubt that more than a few have met with a fatal demise of some sort over the years. But this is to be expected when one group moves in and attempts to change the beliefs of another: the power-bases of the latter group are not about to submit easily to the power-bases of the former. Name one tribe that converted to Christianity after killing/eating missionaries.

When did human sacrifice rituals stop happening? Have you read about the infant sacrifices to Moloch during biblical times? Parents sacrificed their children to this god:

Human sacrifice rituals might still occur in some very, very isolated places –the Amazon basin, perhaps. But I doubt it. In general, human sacrifice rituals ended as city-states became nation-states and controlled by secular or religious governments. But these sacrifices were appropriate and righteous according to the worldviews of their cultures, even though the go against contemporary Western mores.

Thanks, I have read the report. It is pretty uneventful.

Really? I found it quite informative. Could it be that his report didn't support your belief that Satanic cults are running rampant in the United States or are at least an actual problem, and therefore it was "uneventful?"

I found interesting this section:

Urban Legends

Allegations of and knowledge about ritualistic or satanic abuse may also be spread through urban legends. In The Vanishing Hitchhiker (1981,) the first of his four books on the topic, Dr. Jan Harold Brunvand defines urban legends as "realistic stories concerning recent events (or alleged events) with an ironic or supernatural twist" (p. xi.) Dr. Brunvand's books convincingly explain that just because individuals throughout the country who never met each other tell the same story does not mean that it is true.

Absurd urban legends about the corporate logos of Proctor and Gamble and Liz Claiborne being satanic symbols persist in spite of all efforts to refute them with reality. Some urban legends about child kidnappings and other threats to citizens have even been disseminated unknowingly by law enforcement agencies. Such legends have always existed, but today the mass media aggressively participate in their rapid and more efficient dissemination.

Many Americans mistakenly believe that tabloid television shows check out and verify the details of their stories before pulling them on the air. Mass hysteria may partially account for large numbers of victims describing the same symptoms or experiences.

Training conferences for all the disciplines involved in child sexual abuse may also play a role in the spread of this contagion. At one child abuse conference I attended, an exhibitor was selling more than 50 different books dealing with satanism and the occult. By the end of the conference, he had sold nearly all of them. At another national child sexual abuse conference, I witnessed more than 100 attendees copying down the widely disseminated 29 "Symptoms Characterizing Satanic Ritual Abuse" in preschool-aged children. Is a four-year-old child's "preoccupation with urine and feces" an indication of satanic ritual abuse or part of normal development?

Dave Benoit says the occult is strongest in the southern USA, where the bible belt is located.

Of course it is. The cult of Christianity is oppressive so between it and the motivation for adolescents and young adults to separate themselves from the oppression and identify with a counter-culture movement, the occult is present. But a bunch of kids buying "spell-books" and tarot cards in the Barnes and Noble and playing with ouji boards does not a Satanic cult make. Beyond that, Benoit is an evangelist and his bias is naturally to create a fear of the occult so that parishioners will be unified against a common cause. There's nothing unexpected about his behavior, but there's also nothing empirical about his methodology.

But back to Lanning:

"Youth Subculture"

"Most teenagers involved in fantasy role-playing games, heavy metal music, or satanism and the occult are going through a stage of adolescent development and commit no significant crimes. The teenagers who have more serious problems are usually those from dysfunctional families or those who have poor communication within their families. These troubled teenagers turn to satanism and the occult to overcome a sense of alienation, to rebel, to obtain power, or to justify their antisocial behavior.

For these teenagers it is the symbolism, not the spirituality, that is more important. It is either the psychopathic or the oddball, loner teenager who is most likely to get into serious trouble. Extreme involvement in the occult is a symptom of a problem, not the cause. This is not to deny, however, that satanism and the occult can be negative influences for a troubled teenager. But to hysterically warn teenagers to avoid this "mysterious, powerful and dangerous" thing called satanism will drive more teenagers right to it. Some rebellious teenagers will do whatever will most shock and outrage society in order to flaunt their rejection of adult norms."

Your topic question is "why do people join the occult?"

My question is, are you truly looking for information, or are you trying to confirm pre-conceived ideas that you have about Satanic cults? The "occult" is a large spectrum of beliefs, including –from the perspective of many- judeao-christian cults. So are you concerned with ESP, tarot, astrology, UFOs, etc.; or are you concerned primarily with Satanic cults and their alleged human sacrifices?

With regard to your news links, they very obviously represent reprehensible crimes that the criminal believed was satanic or said was satanic, or others believed or said was satanic. But I didn't see any indication of an organized, Satanic cult that was involved in ritual abuse or sacrifice. It simply doesn't happen.

Individuals kill for any variety of reasons, indeed, for every homicide you show that has the "Satanic" moniker attached, I can easily produce one in which the killer claimed to be doing the work of "god."

As I said earlier, you'll certainly be able to cite individuals like Dahmer or Manson, but organized groups that commit ritual sacrifice don't appear to exist, even though one of your links used the term 'group,' I would still question that assumption and would need to see the evidence to believe that to be the case.


References:

Arens, William (1979) The Man Eating Myth. Oxford University Press

Lanning, Kenneth V. (1992) Satanic Ritual Abuse: A 1992 FBI Report National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime.

 

[Woody]

Woody: Dave Benoit says the occult is strongest in the southern USA, where the bible belt is located. ”

Skinwalker said: Of course it is. The cult of Christianity is oppressive so between it and the motivation for adolescents and young adults to separate themselves from the oppression and identify with a counter-culture movement, the occult is present.

Woody: Yet one of your research sources said there is no proven correlation between the presense of christianity and the presense of the occult in a society. Did I misread your resource?

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Skinwalker: My point is that there are no data to support the notion of organized Satanic cults beyond small, localized groups that are engaging in counter-culture activity and certainly not interconnected and sacrificing humans.

Woody: So what is your explaination of Charles Manson and his followers killing Sharon Tate? Also Jim Jones and David Koresh fit within the definition of occultists, Most people call them christians and they were not. Also, what do you think about Marylin Manson and his satanic worship services during his concert? Have you read up on his following?

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Skinwalker: I disagree. All available evidence on the Fore culture of New Guinea indicates that the practice of cannibalism was a funerary ritual with origins in providing protein to women.

Woody: According to our anthropologist the culture did these things as funeral rituals, but some of these cannibalistic acts had nothing to do with nutrition. It was done for their perceived acquisition of power, and they were known to murder members of other tribes for this purpose. Unfortunately women and children can end up on the short end of things in cannibalistic societies. I suppose this kind of information has been "sanitized" to make it a little more palatible (no pun intended). Now we hear the women and children are the culprits rather than the victims and they did it for their own survival. Isn't that sweet?

We also studied infanticide among eskimos and cannibalism based on nutritional need. Eskimos killed female infants, because males were needed to help the family survive. We watched a film about Nanook the eskimo, he eventually ended up killing and eating his wife after the film was made. Dreadful!

Unfortunately we still practice infanticide today through the practice of abortion. Even John Kerry admitted it is a social problem after his political defeat for the presidentail bid. According to Kerry: the democratic party sees abortion as ok and acceptable behavior, but it is not. Strange words coming from the lips of a liberal democrat.

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Skinwalker: "Cursed?" That would imply some form of paranormal act, but if memory serves correct, the prion was only present in a minority of people and the disease was statistically less prevalent than coronary disease or alcoholism in the contemporary United States. It began among the Fore in the 19 th century and was abolished in the 1950s.

Woody: I'm not a medical doctor, but this brain wasting disease has the same root cause as mad cow disease. At least that was my understanding of it after watching documentary films on mad cow. In England the cows were unknowingly feeding on the processed remains of other dead cows. Hence cannibalism resulted in their problem. Alsheimer's disease is also associated somehow.

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Skinwalker: Name one tribe that converted to Christianity after killing/eating missionaries.

Woody: My memory is not good enough to remember the names of the tribes. One of the tribes was in Peru, and the other was in the south pacific.

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Skinwalker: Really? I found it quite informative. Could it be that his report didn't support your belief that Satanic cults are running rampant in the United States or are at least an actual problem, and therefore it was "uneventful?"

Woody: It just shows there are at least two views on every issue. Prooving something doesn't exist can be about as hard as prooving it does it exist. Somebody has to see it in a lab setting before they can accept it.

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Skinwalker: My question is, are you truly looking for information, or are you trying to confirm pre-conceived ideas that you have about Satanic cults?

Woody: Neither of these two. Actually I am evaluating people's perceptions. I threw in the question about occultists being former christians, and I see the atheists took the bait unanimously. They just couldn't resist the temptation of personal bias and brand labeling. I expected that result.

mis-t-high even admits so:

I'll take the test again and you'll get the same results. ok(2,3,6,9.)

Mis-t doesn't think occultists are crazy for believing in supernatural power. This is an interesting result coming from someone that denies the existance of the supernatural.

 

[audible]

mis-t-high even admits so:

I'll take the test again and you'll get the same results. ok(2,3,6,9.)

Mis-t doesn't think occultists are crazy for believing in supernatural power. This is an interesting result coming from someone that denies the existance of the supernatural.

where

1,They are probably crazy
2,They were probably Christians at some time
3,There is no supernatural power
4,They possibly could receive some sort of power
5,It is very likely they receive supernatural power
6,It is ludicrous to think any of them kill people as sacrifices
7,There are probably some that do kill people as sacrifices
8,It is very likely that some kill people as sacrifices
9,I don't know or believe in a God or Gods
10,I do believe in a God or Gods

you put the poll up and you dont seem to know what it says.

 

[Woody]

Audible:

You are rather late in this discussion.

mis-t-high said:“ I'll take the test again and you'll get the same results. ok(2,3,6,9.) ”

I will restate my analysis from an earlier thread:

Conclusion F3: From Conclusion F2, It appears the questions brought out some personal biases. I would venture to say there is a high number of atheists that believe occultists were christians because ref(2) with 12 votes, and ref(9) with 11 votes, and ref(3) with 10 votes are almost the same.

Furthermore I would say most atheists voted (6) as well, because it fits the denial profile. In this insane world of 6 million people, I would think a person could kill someone else for any reason imaginable. Here in the US a prisoner killed another prisoner so he could drink his Koolaid. Some people kill for the pure pleasure of it. It is conceivable that someone could kill someone else and actually believe it gave them some kind of supernatural power -- I would not call it an event with a probability=zero. Some of the serial killers cited this as a reason for their behavior though they were not occultists. I notice that some atheists were open-minded enough to make an allowance for this possibility instead of writing it off completely. As a consequence their atheist brethren think they are dupes as well. It is interesting how the atheist mind works -- complete denial is a safehaven. I broached this subject in original conclusion F2:

Conclusion F2: At least 2 atheists believe human sacrifice could occur: ref(9)-ref(6)=11-9=2. Hence at least 2 atheists are considered ludicrous by some of the other atheists.

Questions (1) and (2) were both baited to bring out perceptional bias -- one of the things I am measuring in this test. I got the result that I expected for that part of the test -- no surprises here.

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I originally voted (1), (5), (8), and (10). After reading some of the occult forum, I would lower my weighting on question (#1), and I would say occultists are more likely to be crazy than the general population, but some if not many of them are rational as well. I have bias too, and at least I can be honest about it. If sombody tells me they don't have a bias, then I would be inclined to believe they are either a liar or in denial.

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Audible, How did you vote? Let me guess (2), (3), (6), (9), and possibly (1). Could it be that we actually agree on a point? Nah I doubt it. I'll say you didn't vote for (1).

 

[SkinWalker]

Woody: Yet one of your research sources said there is no proven correlation between the presense of christianity and the presense of the occult in a society. Did I misread your resource?

Then you missed my point, which is probably my fault for being ambiguous. It was that the prevalence of fundamentalist christian cults within the bible belt are direct contributors for 3 reasons: they are cults themselves, they create an other for their own cult members to believe is a direct threat, and those oppressed by them (usually adolescents and young adults) seek a counter-culture outlet.

Overall, the "occult" isn't really more prevalent in the south than anywhere else, particularly not in organized fashion. But the appearance of it being more prevalent originates from the christian cults using propaganda to unify it's followers.

Skinwalker: My point is that there are no data to support the notion of organized Satanic cults beyond small, localized groups that are engaging in counter-culture activity and certainly not interconnected and sacrificing humans.

Woody: So what is your explaination of Charles Manson and his followers killing Sharon Tate?

You did see where I said, "small, localized," right? Manson was a criminal and a leader of a cult of personality. There exists no way to join Manson's cult, nor could the average person since it was restricted to the few.

Also Jim Jones and David Koresh fit within the definition of occultists, Most people call them christians and they were not.

Again, Jones and Koresh were leaders of cults of personality, but regardless what you want to believe, they were not part of the "occult" since their cults were grounded in christianity. Indeed, their texts and the texts of chrisitan cults are/were the same. Besides, what matters isn't what you believe as far as their christianity, it matters what they and their followers believed. They said they were christian.

Also, what do you think about Marylin Manson and his satanic worship services during his concert? Have you read up on his following?

I think it is a combination of three things: urban legend, propaganda, and theater. Marilyn Manson capitalizes on the controversy he creates among the so-called religious right as the negative publicity he receives motivates his target audience even more. His target audience, after all, appears to be the adolescent white-male that cannot find places to fit in with mainstream society and find satisfaction in counter-culture participation. See the Lanning quote above.

Skinwalker: I disagree. All available evidence on the Fore culture of New Guinea indicates that the practice of cannibalism was a funerary ritual with origins in providing protein to women.

Woody: According to our anthropologist the culture did these things as funeral rituals, but some of these cannibalistic acts had nothing to do with nutrition. It was done for their perceived acquisition of power, and they were known to murder members of other tribes for this purpose.

I think you are probably confusing two different concepts. Perhaps these were discussed by your teacher a with little delineation between them, but the idea of sympathetic magic includes the consumption of a body part. Most of this concept, as with all magic in all cultures, isn't real. Magic isn't real. I don't know if you realize it or not, but there is no supernatural power. What is real, however, are the beliefs that people have about magic. Many times attributes can be applied to a practice without the practice being applied.

The skinwalker is a Navajo witch said to have consumed the flesh of a relative in order to ascend to a level of magic that allows he/she to assume the form of different animals. In all likelihood, this is a bit of propaganda created by the Navajo as a way of demonizing the skinwalker among the populace -one that the skinwalker clans probably revelled in since it helped perpetuate the fear of them. The same is very true when looking at the beliefs of other cultures: just because they have a belief that applies an attribute to a practice, like cannibalism, doesn't mean that the practice is applied.

The Fore were never actually observed eating human flesh. Anthropologists know of it from two sources: their oral history; their biological history -particularly the prion present in the genetic makeup of a small percentage of the population.

We also studied infanticide among eskimos and cannibalism based on nutritional need. Eskimos killed female infants, because males were needed to help the family survive. We watched a film about Nanook the eskimo, he eventually ended up killing and eating his wife after the film was made. Dreadful!

I think your memory is bad. Or the instructor was misinformed. The Inuit (Eskimos) view cannibalism as a taboo. This is a case where there is an application of the attribute, but not the practice, however. The Inuit believed that other, neighboring peoples, did practice cannibalism, but this isn't represented in the archaeological record. The belief was one that, ironically, has the same goal of the so-called religious right in unifying the members of its group and providing reason to keep them from wanting to make contact with other groups or stray.

The practice of infanticide, however, is one that can be confirmed. But this isn't unique to the Inuit. There are many indigenous peoples of the world that had to resort to such extremes as a means of cultural survival. Infanticide, to these cultures, was considered righteous and appropriate, in spite of the reprehensible view that conteporary Western societies take with it.

Unfortunately we still practice infanticide today through the practice of abortion.

Not even. There's a bit of difference between terminating a blastocyst a few weeks old and drowning a newborn. But if this thread shifts to an abortion/anti-abortion argument I'm out. I'm so tired of hearing about that garbage. It only serves to drive a wedge into politics to allow the christian cults a chance to get more political foothold.

Skinwalker: Name one tribe that converted to Christianity after killing/eating missionaries.

Woody: My memory is not good enough to remember the names of the tribes. One of the tribes was in Peru, and the other was in the south pacific.

There have been cultures or societies that were extorted into conversion, but there has never been a documented case of the missionaries being eaten first. This is folklore.

Mis-t doesn't think occultists are crazy for believing in supernatural power. This is an interesting result coming from someone that denies the existance of the supernatural.

No more crazy than those that believe and follow the superstitions and cult rituals of the various christian or muslim cults. I don't believe there is a supernatural power, but I recognize that people do believe in such things. I see as much validity for the religious beliefs of the West African tribes of the Fang or Bobo as with the Christian cults of the Baptists or Pentocostals. I even see as much validity with the Wiccan or neo-pagan cults, though I recognize that many people join these because of counter-culture motivations rather than true desire to embrace the religious aspects.

But the "occult"? I see little real indication that this is a problem. Sure, the occult exists. But ritual sacrifice and abuse isn't an issue with it. More people kill in the name of god than satan.

But as to why people join the occult?, the topic as you presented here, it seems clear that a significant number in the United States do it as a counter-culture movement. The rest are enthralled by things like ESP, tarot, astrology, UFOs, etc.

 

[SkinWalker]

Furthermore I would say most atheists voted (6) as well, because it fits the denial profile.

What exactly is the "denial profile" of an atheist? Never mind, we went this route in another thread and it'll just end up being the same thing again. But for those that didn't follow it before, atheism isn't a "denial" of a god, it's a lack of belief in one. Continually suggesting that atheists are "in denial" is a form of "denial," however. A denial that perhaps there exist some people that don't need your worldview.

In this insane world of 6 million people, I would think a person could kill someone else for any reason imaginable. [...] Some of the serial killers cited this as a reason for their behavior though they were not occultists. I notice that some atheists were open-minded enough to make an allowance for this possibility instead of writing it off completely.

I checked #6, but I also recognized that individuals will kill other humans believing in all sorts of things. The woman near Dallas amputated her baby because she thought god wanted her to; the woman in Houston drowned her kids because she thought god wanted her to.

But this doesn't imply that there are organized groups of "satanists" who conduct true, ritual sacrifice. "Ritual" implies a customary observance or practice -something that is routine. Isolated murder isn't a ritual, though a serial killer's actions obviously are. But this isn't a group.

Questions (1) and (2) were both baited to bring out perceptional bias -- one of the things I am measuring in this test. I got the result that I expected for that part of the test -- no surprises here.

The "test" isn't a true test at all. It uses tricks and internal bias to satisfy preconceived results. Your "test" is designed to only show what you think you already know. Its methodology is severely flawed.

Audible, How did you vote? Let me guess (2), (3), (6), (9), and possibly (1). Could it be that we actually agree on a point? Nah I doubt it. I'll say you didn't vote for (1).

How can you pretend to not know? You only have to click the results to see who participated and how they voted. You even indicate that you've done so above.

As I said, your methodology is flawed. What would be the purpose of "testing" a hypothesis when you design the test to only reveal the results you want?

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker: Again, Jones and Koresh were leaders of cults of personality, but regardless what you want to believe, they were not part of the "occult" since their cults were grounded in christianity. Indeed, their texts and the texts of chrisitan cults are/were the same. Besides, what matters isn't what you believe as far as their christianity, it matters what they and their followers believed. They said they were christian.

You speak from a view of bias. I am a christian and you could say the same to me. However, I was not a christian when the Jim Jones Guyana thing went on. I was an agnostic at that time and I did not have a christian bias. I read about the Jones cult, and I said to myself: anybody that joins that cult could not possibly read or believe the bible. I didn't know much about the bible, but I knew it was wrong for Jim Jones to practice homosexual pedophilia. I knew it was wrong for Jim Jones to procalim he was God. This is just plain odvious common information, yet some people are either brash enough or uninformed enough to say they were christians. The bible says there will be many antichrists that say they are God and they will mislead many. Moon is another one, he leads the unification church. Would you call him a christian? He thinks he is God. How about Jim Young? He thinks he is God too. And the list goes on and on, as well as the christian stereotypes by nonchristians that don't understand it.

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Skinwalker: I think your memory is bad. Or the instructor was misinformed. The Inuit (Eskimos) view cannibalism as a taboo. This is a case where there is an application of the attribute, but not the practice, however. The Inuit believed that other, neighboring peoples, did practice cannibalism, but this isn't represented in the archaeological record. The belief was one that, ironically, has the same goal of the so-called religious right in unifying the members of its group and providing reason to keep them from wanting to make contact with other groups or stray.

Woody: I see the entire anthro department has now gone politically correct. My PHD anthropology professor was a liberal with long gray hair, back when it was taboo for professionals to have long hair. This was in the early 70's. He was not a christian by any means, but he really was a nice fellow. Have you seen the documentary on Nanook the Eskimo? It was done in either the 30s or 40s. The eskimos were nomadic hunters. They killed the female infants until there were enough males in the family to hunt and bring in enough food to feed everyone. Females were considered a luxery. Have you not studied this, or has the women's lib movement penetrated anthropology as well?

It's funny how history is rewritten to please the views of those in the present rather than to tell the truths of those in the past.

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Skinwalker: Not even. There's a bit of difference between terminating a blastocyst a few weeks old and drowning a newborn.

Woody: There you go again with your rationalizations, minimizing the problem so it can't be seen (this is what I mean by denial). Let's make that unborn baby so small that we can't see it, and lets call it a "fetus" or some other name that resembles a cancerous growth so we can justify removing it. How about the partial birth abortions in late term pregnancy?

Have you read about this hideous procedure. The infant could easily be born alive, and it is removed breach style, except for the head. An incision is made to the skull and the brain is suctioned out. Do you suppose the "lifeless" piece of tissue might feel it? The libs minimize this by saying oh it's so rare. Well there is no excuse for it, or the man that allowed it -- Bill Clinton. All that is lacking is a brain eater to consume the tissue, but I hear aborted fetuses make pretty good women's cosmetics over in France. The fetuses contain a lot of rejuvinating chemicals that smooth out the skin.

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[SkinWalker]

I may be biased, but I don't know to what end.

The fact is as I stated, however -these people believe/believed that they were representing christianity. I agree that they don't hold to the principles of christianity, but then again I find very few so-called righteous christians that do. Non-christian acts and crimes are far more prevalent among those that consider themselves "christian" than among most other religious or non-religious groups. Ironically, abortion is more common among the church-going than those that don't. As we discussed in another thread, christianity is statistically better represented in prison than is atheism.

That's not to say that christianity creates criminals and abortioners, but it does suggest that being christian or merely believing in the principles of christianity doesn't mean that one is moral and virtuous. Nor is it true that every christian criminal is automatically an "occult" worshipper/member/cult leader.

But whether I am biased or not, the facts are that the cults of Koresh, Jones, et al were grounded in christianity and not in the occult. So we can effectively leave them out of any discussion of the occult.

But back to your topic, when you have yet to define, or should I say refine, the definition of "occult." It's a broad one and I can only infer that you mean to leave out christianity and, perhaps, the other Abrahimic cults. Do you mean to include ESP, remote viewing, astrology, tarot, UFOs, etc.? Or do you mean to exclude them and include those cults that utilize satanic motifs?