Why do people join the occult?
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
Chris said:
I base it on the assumption that the bible is true.
Proove that any other theory on the origin of the universe is true, and we'll quit go home, and there will no longer be a religion forum.
As I said before, man's logic did not get us here, yet you think it can explain how we got here. God gave man logic for a reason, and you have found a reason to make logic man's God. I find this irrational.
I base it on the assumption that the bible is true.
Proove that any other theory on the origin of the universe is true, and we'll quit go home, and there will no longer be a religion forum.
As I said before, man's logic did not get us here, yet you think it can explain how we got here. God gave man logic for a reason, and you have found a reason to make logic man's God. I find this irrational.
If the bible is true then Satan exists, and is a powerful figure, so what's so strange about him having followers? (acknowledging that many diverse practices get lumped into the catagory of "occult" as well) He might not be all powerful, but he could pull some strings for you, especially if you want to cause trouble.
Woody,
Yes I understand. But the bible has never been established as a truthful document. Religionists only assert that it is true and that is not the same thing.
Why? It is perfectly acceptable to state that we do not know. The absence of knowledge in this area does not automatically mean that your particular imaginative speculation is true.
As with any incredible claim to something that has no precedent you are required to justify your assertions if you expect to be seen as believable and credible. Dishonestly attempting to shift the onus onto others will not work in a debating scenario such as this.
This is a case of put up or shut up.
Logic is independent of man. The alternative to logic is illogic. Why would you consider illogic to have any value?
You must first establish that God exists before we can meaningfully discuss what it may or not have given man. Until then God is only a fantasy concept. Can you show otherwise without reciting baseless assertions?
Yes I understand. But the bible has never been established as a truthful document. Religionists only assert that it is true and that is not the same thing.
Why? It is perfectly acceptable to state that we do not know. The absence of knowledge in this area does not automatically mean that your particular imaginative speculation is true.
As with any incredible claim to something that has no precedent you are required to justify your assertions if you expect to be seen as believable and credible. Dishonestly attempting to shift the onus onto others will not work in a debating scenario such as this.
This is a case of put up or shut up.
Logic is independent of man. The alternative to logic is illogic. Why would you consider illogic to have any value?
You must first establish that God exists before we can meaningfully discuss what it may or not have given man. Until then God is only a fantasy concept. Can you show otherwise without reciting baseless assertions?
Just as those who follow various religions have different goals, occultists have various goals as well. One major difference is that the occult makes the believer think he has powers to do various things; it lifts many limitations that are placed by most popular religions. I read one occult book in which the author said that life is merely a dream and that each of us is able to do whatever we please the same way we can do that in a lucid dream. With these limitations lifted, comes responsibility and consideration of actions in a way that, I think, is unknown to many followers of Christianity and Judaism.
One can study the occult books and be fully ignorant of Christianity and Judaism; nonetheless, most occult books have strong basis in these religions. So, a rebelious youth going against the mainstream culture really doesn't stray too far
That is because Wicca is not what was practiced in pre-Christian world. Many occult books prescribe extensive study of Kabbalah (sp).Edit: I have recalled, the occult says we reincarnate. Of course, reincarnation is not something to be strived for, it simply happens inevitably and naturally. So the occultist, or at least the books, focus on powers, their acquisition, development, and fun that they give. Unlike Hinduism, the occult books do not say we're striving to become one with a deity; we simply reincarnate.
The various occult books talk of various divinities; I gather, the student of those books is free to choose/make up divinities that suit his conscience best.
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Chris: Logic is independent of man.
Woody: Logic can exist independently of life itself for a while. A computer's operating system is built on logic. But man's mind created the logic to operate the computer system. Without man's volition, there would not be a computer. It required a creator, ie man. Without man using the computer, it would have no purpose, and would eventually die.
Likewise God is like the man, and man is like the computer in the same analogy.
Chris: The alternative to logic is illogic. Why would you consider illogic to have any value?
Woody: If there is no God then the absense of logic is what got us here, it just happened by chaos, as other members of the forum say. In other words, man's logic has been a useful science for maybe 500 years, but the universe is like 30 billion years old. Man's science did not get us here, but so many people think it will answer all questions.
Woody: Logic can exist independently of life itself for a while. A computer's operating system is built on logic. But man's mind created the logic to operate the computer system. Without man's volition, there would not be a computer. It required a creator, ie man. Without man using the computer, it would have no purpose, and would eventually die.
Likewise God is like the man, and man is like the computer in the same analogy.
Chris: The alternative to logic is illogic. Why would you consider illogic to have any value?
Woody: If there is no God then the absense of logic is what got us here, it just happened by chaos, as other members of the forum say. In other words, man's logic has been a useful science for maybe 500 years, but the universe is like 30 billion years old. Man's science did not get us here, but so many people think it will answer all questions.
1) The law was not written to judge the righteous, it was written to judge the unrighteous. ”
SL: We've been through this a dozen times. If a righteous man breaks the laws, he is no longer righteous - but unrighteous - and as such the laws were written for him. Seeings as any christian will tell you you're all sinners, the law was written for you.
Bible: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Woody: Atheism is contrary to sound bible doctrine, therefore atheists are under the law.
Bible: For he (God)hath made him(Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: Believers on Christ are righteous.
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“ 2) Jesus fulfulled every "dot and tittle of the law" as you say. ”
SL: Not at all. You know damn well what I said, and your attempts to lie to change that show your true nature.
Bible: For he hath (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: The bible says Jesus was sinless.
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“ 3) Jesus is the only person that has ever fulfilled the law. ”
SL: Not true at all. Spend some time looking through other religious texts, and yes, even texts vastly older than the biblical ones.
Bible: There is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:12). For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
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“ 4) Forgiveness is needed for everyone else because they come up short. ”
SL: Well maybe you do. Maybe you feel that bad within yourself. Personally I don't.
Bible: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
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“
6) They failed to love God with all their heart, soul, and strength (one of the ten commandments). ”
SL: As I've pointed out, love wasn't the issue, fear was.
Woody: Love is the issue with God:
Jesus: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:24)
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“ 7) Jesus told them if they loved God they would love Jesus, God's only son. ”
SL: Maybe, but as rational human beings they needed a little more than one man's say so. If he truly was god there would have been no doubt. The doubt would come from a hairy arab claiming to be god. It's no different to you making claims about Ken and his ouija board - and I hasten to add: you still have not managed to back it up whatsoever.
Woody: I'm working on Ken, he finally responded today. I will find out if he has the pilot's name. Even if I give you a name you could say it was all after the fact anyway. Ken could have read about the accident in the newspaper and fabricated his ouija board story after the fact. So the name gets to be a moot point.
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SL: And seemingly they weren't the only ones. god visits earth and nobody except a small handful of writers even mention the guy. It would arguably be the greatest single event in the history of mankind and yet nobody even noticed. Several of those who did write about him got ignored by the church and you religious people, the others can't even agree on the basic details.
W: The prophets of the bible are more than just a handful.
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SL: You know, a few years back a comet passed overhead. Several books were written about it, countless magazines, millions upon millions of people rushed out to see it, etc. god comes to earth and only 12 people give a shit. Makes you wonder.
“ 8) The pharisees plotted to have Jesus killed (definately not an act of love). ”
SL: Yeah, and then the fake god shit his pants: "Oh god why have you forsaken me? I realise I've been lying to everyone but it was all for you.. please save me"
Bible: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Woody: Jesus trusted the Father to bring Him back to life.
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“ 10) They are in Hell ”
SL: No they're not. Nobody goes to heaven or hell until god raises them up to judge them at the end times.
Bible: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)
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“ 11) Jesus fulfills the law in the lives of all believers. ”
SL: I don't doubt it. Everyone needs a scapegoat. It gives you freedom to be an asshole. However, how would jesus fulfill the law of believers? You've had me believe that believers are righteous, and according to you the law isn't even written for the righteous. As a result, jesus has just fulfilled the law for us non-believers and unrighteous. Cool, atheists are saved- so sayeth Woody.
Jesus: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Woody: Atheists have not believed on the only thing that saves a person -- that is faith in Christ.
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“ 12) Love is the fulfilment of the law. ”
SL: Well that's handy then considering pretty much everyone has love.
Jesus: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)
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“ 13) God is love by His own definition of Himself. ”
SL: Not at all. By his own definition of himself he is:"For the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."Or.."that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, the lord thy god" He defines himself as jealous, even saying his name is jealous. He also considers himself fearful. I guess you forgot about them.
Bible: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. (1st John 4:8)
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Woody: This is the God I believe in, not the one you describe. ”
SL: But of course, you'll only listen to what you want to hear. The bible is still there. It doesn't change, you just ignore three quarters of it. I guess that's a good thing if it means keeping you sane and happy. It's only when you die the shit will start, but why worry about that now?
Woody: I showed you what Jesus says. He fulfilled the law you keep talking about:
Bible: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: (Galatians 3:13)
Woody: Why would I want to continue living under the curse of the law like you want me too?
Bible:I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal 2:21)
Woody: So, Snakelord, If I do it your way concerning the law then I frustrate God, and there was no point in Jesus coming to the earth. Snakelord you understand the law but you do not understand that God's grace trumps the law.
Bible: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 5:20, 21)
Woody: See there? grace trumps sin. Jesus came after the old teastament laws that you keep touting. Until Jesus came the OT laws were still in effect in the lives of a believer. The new law of love supersedes the old laws. Grace is greater than the law, hence Jesus was raised from the dead, and believers have a new schoolmaster:
Bible: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Woody: Love fulfils the law, boy that sure makes things a lot simpler!
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“ God promised Abraham that... ”
Snakelord: Yeah I've read the bible thnx. It doesn't do anything to your comment or my response.
“ Rather than go through all the possible iterations of the word "fear" let me give you another word that has changed since the days of King James, the word "charity" ”
No, it means he feared god. Look, while you can come up with a hundred and one words that aren't used or implied, the biblical translators are beyond you. No offence but you're an engineer and barbecue chef. You wouldn't know the first thing. In every bible and every instance the biblical translators show that god wants fear. I used the KJV because in a former thread you told me that was the total truth and all the words were right. Don't you remember? It was that thread you ended up running away from when you ran out of steam. We were having a small issue between the words "through" and "in". You told me that the KJV was the perfect bible, that all the words in it were the right ones and so on. As a result it comes as quite a surprise to see you belittling the bible you were sticking up for just a small while ago - and indeed completely changing your tune as is so common with complete hypocrites.
Even when I pointed out that in the NKJV, (the update KJV), that the word through is used instead of in, you dismissed it outright, claiming that no bible can compete with the KJV. You told me to piss off and argue with catholics, or some other christian group that you dislike.
You're making it up as you go along.
Woody: The original manuscripts were not written in english -- give me a break on this one.
I'm not afraid of God. I do however, hold Him in great reverence. With Jesus on my side what do I have to fear?
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“ These verses were quoted in my wedding. We used "love" in place of "charity." Likewise I recommend you use the word "respect" in place of the word "fear." It more accurately reflects modern english usage. ”
According to a barbecue chef? Alas, not according to your own god or the biblical translators. Personally though, I would agree with god. If you do not fear him, (i.e have no fear that you'll be punished and go to hell), then religion instantly becomes moot. The very way to keep something like that alive is to have fear of it. The very minute the fear is removed, god becomes nothing. You know this as well as anyone - but are trying to back out of it merely because you made an error on your last post.
SL: We've been through this a dozen times. If a righteous man breaks the laws, he is no longer righteous - but unrighteous - and as such the laws were written for him. Seeings as any christian will tell you you're all sinners, the law was written for you.
Bible: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Woody: Atheism is contrary to sound bible doctrine, therefore atheists are under the law.
Bible: For he (God)hath made him(Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: Believers on Christ are righteous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 2) Jesus fulfulled every "dot and tittle of the law" as you say. ”
SL: Not at all. You know damn well what I said, and your attempts to lie to change that show your true nature.
Bible: For he hath (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: The bible says Jesus was sinless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 3) Jesus is the only person that has ever fulfilled the law. ”
SL: Not true at all. Spend some time looking through other religious texts, and yes, even texts vastly older than the biblical ones.
Bible: There is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:12). For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 4) Forgiveness is needed for everyone else because they come up short. ”
SL: Well maybe you do. Maybe you feel that bad within yourself. Personally I don't.
Bible: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
“
6) They failed to love God with all their heart, soul, and strength (one of the ten commandments). ”
SL: As I've pointed out, love wasn't the issue, fear was.
Woody: Love is the issue with God:
Jesus: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:24)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 7) Jesus told them if they loved God they would love Jesus, God's only son. ”
SL: Maybe, but as rational human beings they needed a little more than one man's say so. If he truly was god there would have been no doubt. The doubt would come from a hairy arab claiming to be god. It's no different to you making claims about Ken and his ouija board - and I hasten to add: you still have not managed to back it up whatsoever.
Woody: I'm working on Ken, he finally responded today. I will find out if he has the pilot's name. Even if I give you a name you could say it was all after the fact anyway. Ken could have read about the accident in the newspaper and fabricated his ouija board story after the fact. So the name gets to be a moot point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
SL: And seemingly they weren't the only ones. god visits earth and nobody except a small handful of writers even mention the guy. It would arguably be the greatest single event in the history of mankind and yet nobody even noticed. Several of those who did write about him got ignored by the church and you religious people, the others can't even agree on the basic details.
W: The prophets of the bible are more than just a handful.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SL: You know, a few years back a comet passed overhead. Several books were written about it, countless magazines, millions upon millions of people rushed out to see it, etc. god comes to earth and only 12 people give a shit. Makes you wonder.
“ 8) The pharisees plotted to have Jesus killed (definately not an act of love). ”
SL: Yeah, and then the fake god shit his pants: "Oh god why have you forsaken me? I realise I've been lying to everyone but it was all for you.. please save me"
Bible: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Woody: Jesus trusted the Father to bring Him back to life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 10) They are in Hell ”
SL: No they're not. Nobody goes to heaven or hell until god raises them up to judge them at the end times.
Bible: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 11) Jesus fulfills the law in the lives of all believers. ”
SL: I don't doubt it. Everyone needs a scapegoat. It gives you freedom to be an asshole. However, how would jesus fulfill the law of believers? You've had me believe that believers are righteous, and according to you the law isn't even written for the righteous. As a result, jesus has just fulfilled the law for us non-believers and unrighteous. Cool, atheists are saved- so sayeth Woody.
Jesus: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Woody: Atheists have not believed on the only thing that saves a person -- that is faith in Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 12) Love is the fulfilment of the law. ”
SL: Well that's handy then considering pretty much everyone has love.
Jesus: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ 13) God is love by His own definition of Himself. ”
SL: Not at all. By his own definition of himself he is:"For the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."Or.."that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, the lord thy god" He defines himself as jealous, even saying his name is jealous. He also considers himself fearful. I guess you forgot about them.
Bible: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. (1st John 4:8)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woody: This is the God I believe in, not the one you describe. ”
SL: But of course, you'll only listen to what you want to hear. The bible is still there. It doesn't change, you just ignore three quarters of it. I guess that's a good thing if it means keeping you sane and happy. It's only when you die the shit will start, but why worry about that now?
Woody: I showed you what Jesus says. He fulfilled the law you keep talking about:
Bible: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: (Galatians 3:13)
Woody: Why would I want to continue living under the curse of the law like you want me too?
Bible:I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal 2:21)
Woody: So, Snakelord, If I do it your way concerning the law then I frustrate God, and there was no point in Jesus coming to the earth. Snakelord you understand the law but you do not understand that God's grace trumps the law.
Bible: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 5:20, 21)
Woody: See there? grace trumps sin. Jesus came after the old teastament laws that you keep touting. Until Jesus came the OT laws were still in effect in the lives of a believer. The new law of love supersedes the old laws. Grace is greater than the law, hence Jesus was raised from the dead, and believers have a new schoolmaster:
Bible: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Woody: Love fulfils the law, boy that sure makes things a lot simpler!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ God promised Abraham that... ”
Snakelord: Yeah I've read the bible thnx. It doesn't do anything to your comment or my response.
“ Rather than go through all the possible iterations of the word "fear" let me give you another word that has changed since the days of King James, the word "charity" ”
No, it means he feared god. Look, while you can come up with a hundred and one words that aren't used or implied, the biblical translators are beyond you. No offence but you're an engineer and barbecue chef. You wouldn't know the first thing. In every bible and every instance the biblical translators show that god wants fear. I used the KJV because in a former thread you told me that was the total truth and all the words were right. Don't you remember? It was that thread you ended up running away from when you ran out of steam. We were having a small issue between the words "through" and "in". You told me that the KJV was the perfect bible, that all the words in it were the right ones and so on. As a result it comes as quite a surprise to see you belittling the bible you were sticking up for just a small while ago - and indeed completely changing your tune as is so common with complete hypocrites.
Even when I pointed out that in the NKJV, (the update KJV), that the word through is used instead of in, you dismissed it outright, claiming that no bible can compete with the KJV. You told me to piss off and argue with catholics, or some other christian group that you dislike.
You're making it up as you go along.
Woody: The original manuscripts were not written in english -- give me a break on this one.
I'm not afraid of God. I do however, hold Him in great reverence. With Jesus on my side what do I have to fear?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
“ These verses were quoted in my wedding. We used "love" in place of "charity." Likewise I recommend you use the word "respect" in place of the word "fear." It more accurately reflects modern english usage. ”
According to a barbecue chef? Alas, not according to your own god or the biblical translators. Personally though, I would agree with god. If you do not fear him, (i.e have no fear that you'll be punished and go to hell), then religion instantly becomes moot. The very way to keep something like that alive is to have fear of it. The very minute the fear is removed, god becomes nothing. You know this as well as anyone - but are trying to back out of it merely because you made an error on your last post.
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Woody,
At its root logic is the result of cause and effect and is universal, even a god must conform to logic. Life is not required for logic to function. Even within the apparent chaos of QM cause and effect occur, although perhaps in some cases in reverse order.
No man created the computer. The computer evolved exactly like absolutely everything else that exists. Man’s only role in the history of the computer is that he used his intelligence to make small adaptations of simpler components. The evolution of the computer likely began when the first man made a mark on a stick to indicate his first kill. Man’s role is simply a catalyst in an ongoing evolutionary process.
Similarly with anything you care to name you will find it is the result of something simpler, i.e. the result of an evolutionary process.
Just like anything that evolves some things survive and some things become extinct.
But your analogy tries to imply that man was created, yet there is no evidence that anything has ever been created, everything evolves. Without an example of something being created you have no basis to claim the existence of a creator.
There is no example of anything complex ever having been created out of chaos – everything complex has been the result of adaptations from something simpler. The complexity of the computer is such an example and its rapid evolution is because it has been aided by man’s intelligence, yet man himself evolved over millions of years through natural mutations and environmental adaptations. This is yet another example that shows that there is no creator since with the super intelligence claimed for a god one would expect man would have been created instantly, yet this is not what we observe.
Without modern science you would most likely not be alive. Your age is around 51, yet less than 100 years ago the average life expectancy was around 40. And 1000 years ago it was a lot less.
But knowledge (science) can be a two edged sword, it can help us survive and it can be used by a deranged few to destroy the world. There is no guarantee that we will survive and we might well become extinct if we do not evolve quickly beyond our current erratic levels of intelligence.
But science is the best method and technique we have yet devised that can help us establish truth and knowledge. Christianity in its entire history has done nothing to extend real knowledge and for a long time attempted and even today attempts to stem and retard scientific investigations.
At its root logic is the result of cause and effect and is universal, even a god must conform to logic. Life is not required for logic to function. Even within the apparent chaos of QM cause and effect occur, although perhaps in some cases in reverse order.
No man created the computer. The computer evolved exactly like absolutely everything else that exists. Man’s only role in the history of the computer is that he used his intelligence to make small adaptations of simpler components. The evolution of the computer likely began when the first man made a mark on a stick to indicate his first kill. Man’s role is simply a catalyst in an ongoing evolutionary process.
Similarly with anything you care to name you will find it is the result of something simpler, i.e. the result of an evolutionary process.
Just like anything that evolves some things survive and some things become extinct.
But your analogy tries to imply that man was created, yet there is no evidence that anything has ever been created, everything evolves. Without an example of something being created you have no basis to claim the existence of a creator.
There is no example of anything complex ever having been created out of chaos – everything complex has been the result of adaptations from something simpler. The complexity of the computer is such an example and its rapid evolution is because it has been aided by man’s intelligence, yet man himself evolved over millions of years through natural mutations and environmental adaptations. This is yet another example that shows that there is no creator since with the super intelligence claimed for a god one would expect man would have been created instantly, yet this is not what we observe.
Without modern science you would most likely not be alive. Your age is around 51, yet less than 100 years ago the average life expectancy was around 40. And 1000 years ago it was a lot less.
But knowledge (science) can be a two edged sword, it can help us survive and it can be used by a deranged few to destroy the world. There is no guarantee that we will survive and we might well become extinct if we do not evolve quickly beyond our current erratic levels of intelligence.
But science is the best method and technique we have yet devised that can help us establish truth and knowledge. Christianity in its entire history has done nothing to extend real knowledge and for a long time attempted and even today attempts to stem and retard scientific investigations.
Originally Posted by Woody; Believers on Christ are righteous.
everneo: Wonderful generalized self-certification.
Bible: For he (God)hath made him(Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: Your argument is with the bible, not with me.
everneo: It is hard to digest Hitler was righteous.
Woody: It's easy for me to believe he is in hell. It is easy for me to believe he is a type of the anti-christ. What makes you think that Hitler was a christian? This is absurd.
Jesus: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Woody: What fruit did Hitler bear that makes you think he is like Jesus?
everneo: Next comes GWB. ..the list goes on.
Woody: Are you from the USA? Perhaps you would prefer a nuclear explosion from some half-witted terrorist in New York Harbor, or in London , England. Our senate and congressional members have already assessed this possibility for New York and the damage it would cause -- it is real. Is this what it will take to wake you brainwashed liberals out of your koolaid acid trip?
I remeber what senator Feinstein from California said back in the 90's. She said it was crazy to spend american tax dollars to stop "imaginary boogie men." Yeah we can thank our good old president Clinton for 9/11 after he gutted our intelligence system. Then there was Angola wanting to send Ben Laden to Clinton. But Clinton said it wasn't poilitically correct to deal with a nation like Angola. He refused to take Ben Laden served on a silver platter. Well you see what we got as result. Why are liberals always wrong, wrong, consistently wrong? Yet our nations idiots continue to vote for them -- it's disgusting.
9/11 started this snowball and it is a war of american ideaology against terrorism. It will not end until america ends or the arab countries change. There is no coexistence after 9/11, this is a fight to the death. What should we do, wait for another attack?
everneo: Wonderful generalized self-certification.
Bible: For he (God)hath made him(Jesus) to be sin for us (believers), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)
Woody: Your argument is with the bible, not with me.
everneo: It is hard to digest Hitler was righteous.
Woody: It's easy for me to believe he is in hell. It is easy for me to believe he is a type of the anti-christ. What makes you think that Hitler was a christian? This is absurd.
Jesus: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Woody: What fruit did Hitler bear that makes you think he is like Jesus?
everneo: Next comes GWB. ..the list goes on.
Woody: Are you from the USA? Perhaps you would prefer a nuclear explosion from some half-witted terrorist in New York Harbor, or in London , England. Our senate and congressional members have already assessed this possibility for New York and the damage it would cause -- it is real. Is this what it will take to wake you brainwashed liberals out of your koolaid acid trip?
I remeber what senator Feinstein from California said back in the 90's. She said it was crazy to spend american tax dollars to stop "imaginary boogie men." Yeah we can thank our good old president Clinton for 9/11 after he gutted our intelligence system. Then there was Angola wanting to send Ben Laden to Clinton. But Clinton said it wasn't poilitically correct to deal with a nation like Angola. He refused to take Ben Laden served on a silver platter. Well you see what we got as result. Why are liberals always wrong, wrong, consistently wrong? Yet our nations idiots continue to vote for them -- it's disgusting.
9/11 started this snowball and it is a war of american ideaology against terrorism. It will not end until america ends or the arab countries change. There is no coexistence after 9/11, this is a fight to the death. What should we do, wait for another attack?
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Woody said:
Jesus is your sin?!! yeah, bible. Does Jesus know this 'fact'?
Hitler was a believer on Jesus; 'Jesus is his sin' - so he was automatically righteous according to you or bible or whatever.
I don't think he is like Jesus. You are a funny guy.
How does the threat of nuclear explosion make GWB righteous, besides his belief on Christ as you said/quoted? or should i try koolaid acid trip to find the relation ?
Can you give any reference or link to the information that 'Angola wanting to send Bin Laden to Clinton'? When Clinton ordered the cruise missile attack on Al queda bases in Afghanistan people said he was trying to divert the attention from Monica lewinsky scandal.
I feel your christian love emanating from you now. The unfortunate 9/11 also had a history, besides that, more than three years after 9/11 what GWB is doing in Iraq? Bin Laden is there? Blame it on Clinton for not able to get bin laden, GWB is righteous anyway, ofcourse.
Is there any chance at all of moderation here? I know this is the religious forum, but this thread is purportedly about the Occult and a particular occultic website with forum, not "Examination of Woody's Christian Beliefs". Woody posed some questions in a (very badly designed) poll, and I think there could be some examination of that. Instead of which arguments have been started by sneering atheists who seemed to want to begin by denying Woody's right to an interest in the subject he raised. As an atheist myself, I would rather have seen some intelligent debate on the issues.
Not here in the Religion forum, Cris. If a Creationist or an Intelligent Designer wants to promote erroneous and evidence-less views on General Science or Biology, then I suppose it's a reasonable point of view and open to discussion. But there could scarcely be any discussion here whatsoever if every Believer had to prove God's existence before they could even raise an issue to do with their religion. I don't believe in God and probably would reject any "proof" that anyone would try to come up with. But I hope I can make a meaningful contribution to what He "gave to man".Cris said:
I'd think that many people go to these things because they are interested in what the "other" part of society is really like. To find out for themselves what is the occult really about. Something for them to do, then some of them get caught up in it for there are people within the occult world that "manipulate" others, especially younger people, into showing them the occult is more fun than any other type of "program" out there.
Many people are cast offs from regular things anyway and if they don't fit into the "normal" way of life, they tend to move into the occult for those within the occult accept people for any reason and don't care about who they are or what they have done.
Many people are cast offs from regular things anyway and if they don't fit into the "normal" way of life, they tend to move into the occult for those within the occult accept people for any reason and don't care about who they are or what they have done.
I am curious as to what "sound" bible doctrine is. Just so you know, I'm not asking what the word 'sound' means in this context, but what exactly there is in the bible that you find 'sound'. Further to which, I fail to see your problems towards atheism because of it. Although we don't generally believe in a god or gods, that doesn't instantly make us manslayers, whoremongers, or father murderers. Definitely no more so than christians themselves.
I would also like to point out that the biblical text you use also states: "sinners", of which you would most likely agree that every christian is one - and thus as a result becomes unrighteous - thus making him unrighteous and under the law.
Again go back to what I said on my last post. We have been through this before, and aside from your excuses being an amusing way to try and get out of obeying god, it doesn't serve any valid purpose.
Not according to the biblical quote you used, which states that jesus has become a scapegoat so that you might be made righteous. At the end of the day he gets to decide who is righteous, not you. I don't think you'll score any points for deciding on his behalf.
Completely irrelevant to what I said, and yet another attempt to dismiss your lies. Try again when you find the courage to be honest.
I can't tell whether you're purposely being silly or whether it's unavoidable for you. Your bible is a baby. Spend some time looking through other texts, and older texts and you'll see that you're wrong. Guess you're too scared.
This was written a few thousand years ago. At that time, I'm sure they were all sinners who came short. Luckily times have changed, and the only people coming short are those with self doubt issues.
Not at all, and the biblical quote doesn't help you in any way whatsoever. It says, (although you were the one who pasted it and as such should know what it says), to love one another. It doesn't mention loving god. This mini-god of yours hasn't said: "love me", but "love each other".
So I'm wondering why you claim it has nothing to do with fear, even though god says it several hundred times, but state it's about love using one quote that doesn't even mention loving god.
You have no case.
Just an airport name, jungle name, and date would be sufficient.
Staying with the debate however, I would like to ask you why you didn't believe David Koresh was the new jesus. Once you understand why, apply that same reason to the people of old who were faced with jesus making all sorts of claims.
No they're not - especially given as I said that god visiting earth should have been the most important single event in the history of mankind. If a comet ends up with 60,000 magazines talking about it, aswell as countless of tv programmes, news reports etc etc, then you'd think that god coming to earth would be able to rival it. Yet, nobody noticed, or nobody cared enough to even mention it - other than several questionable accounts in the bible that tend to disagree with each other.
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Mark 15
He, as a believer, assumed god would save him from being killed. His mortality came to light, and like any human about to die, he screamed out, well aware that god had let him down.
What are you talking about the only thing? There's many things.. spend some time reading other texts. On a personal note: I don't want to live forever.
Now we're getting to it. You made the statement that love is fulfillment of the law - in some attempts to show that the old laws are not important anymore. If you actually read what you've quoted, you'll see it's saying that love god and love your neighbour are the top two commandments. Having those two commandments secures all the others as being just as important. If you kill someone you obviously do not love them and thus fall foul of commandment 2. If you don't get circumcised as god asked you to, you're not showing him your love, and as such fall foul of commandment 1.
As you can see, by those two laws alone, every single law in the bible becomes all the more important - because failing to uphold any of them is failing in laws 1 & 2.
By eating pork you are in fact saying "ha, why would I listen to what god says", and ignoring the very simple thing he asked from you. Do you think that's a sign of love Woody? When you get to the pearly gates what will your excuse be then? "I do love you god but there was nothing else to eat"?
Hopefully I have showed you the importance of all of gods laws based upon those two. As it states, you can hang all the laws onto those two. Wait.. did you think 'hang' meant to kill them, to ignore them? Lol.
As you will be aware, those are John's words from a letter he wrote. That is the opinion of a human. I think it stands to reason to that god's own words mean more than a humans opinion of him. As such the statement I provided carries more merit.
"For the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."
From the horses mouth.
And I showed you just how important every single law remains if you want to uphold laws 1 & 2 of love god and neighbours. You think going against the things god asks you to do is the way to show him your love? Do you think ignoring jesus who said that every law is to be upheld and that not one dot or stroke can be removed from those laws is showing him your love? And what was your excuse to get out of it? Ah yes, you just changed the subject.
jesus is your own personal little scapegoat, but it's obvious that you don't love him. If you did, you'd do what he and his father asked - down to the last dot and stroke. To think he went through the pain of a mortal death and you can't even take the time to obey him or love him. All because pork tastes too good. Oh well.
Oh, the laws were a curse? Thou shalt not kill is a curse? Now jesus has redeemed you who do you plan to kill first?
You wouldn't, would you? Because... you know that a part of loving god and neighbours means you don't just go around killing people. You pay attention to those laws because you love god. Right? You see, as I've already pointed out, every one of those laws - down to the last dot and stroke is obeyed because you love god and neighbours. jesus temporarily killing himself does not make it ok for you to go out and kill people, just as jesus killing himself does not mean that you can now eat pork and not get circumcised. If you really loved god - you would obey them naturally. You're a fraud - looking for the easy way out.
Let's state the passage again just to point out that it has nothing to do with "frustrating god":
'I am not setting aside god's grace as of no value; it is merely that if saving justice comes through the law, christ died needlessly'.
It's a matter of faith vs works - and nobody can seem to get that settled in the bible. But let it be known just how important the law is:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." --Romans 2:12
'As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.' James 2:26
Wait wait, let's not stop there..
'But someone may say: so you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith. You believe in the one god - that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?' James 2
See Woody, even the devil has the same belief as you, but it is how you obey the law that separates you. No surprise then to see you following the word of Paul - whom we know was a persecutor of christians, teaching a doctrine that opposed jesus. I fear the devil may have a strong hold on you.
Sure, and if you now go back a page or two, Romans will tell you that the way to be righteous is by obeying the law. (I quoted it earlier).
If you read it properly you'll see it's saying that grace there depicts a willing manner, (to obey the law willingly), and as such sin no longer reigns, and through willingly obeying the laws one becomes righteous, (as shown by Romans), and inherits eternal life. So yes, grace does trump sin. But if you're not obeying the laws, you have no grace but are just sinful - and thus wont inherit eternal life.
What are you talking about? jesus = god = made those very same laws you keep ignoring. A christian would have us believe that jesus has been around since day 1.. yes, even you were arguing this very case in another thread with me - claiming that jesus was here right at the beginning. As a result, those laws you keep ignoring are jesus' laws. jesus = god, (one and the same) = jesus laws.
Those laws are still in effect, so sayeth jesus. Not one dot, not one stroke is to be removed, and it's bad ass time for anyone who disobeys so much as one dot or stroke from those laws and teaches others to do the same. So sayeth jesus. Really Woody, you should pay more attention. If you love god/jesus and your neighbour then all of those laws are as important as each other, because disobeying them does not in any way show that you love god/jesus. He has asked you to obey them all, down to the last dot and stroke, but you just can't be bothered. It's sick, especially when you then give others advice on how to be righteous. You're leading others into that hot pit of hell right along with you.
Actually no it doesn't - unless you have real love, in which case all of those laws are as important as each other. As a matter of loving god you wouldn't go and kill someone, (because god asked you not to). As a matter of loving god you wouldn't lie, (because god asked you not to), and as a matter of love you wouldn't eat pork, (because god asked you not to).
And? My point being that the biblical translators know more than you do, and you yourself claimed that the KJV was the perfect bible. As a result, you have no place to start bitching about words in it. If it says fear, it's fear - not something else you'd personally prefer to put in it's place.
But hey you're right, it's written in a different language.. Maybe it's just a recipe book for lamb vindaloo, and the translators just messed it up.
That's upto you and god to figure out. He wants you to fear him, (so sayeth he several hundred times), it's upto you to work out how.
SL<
All I can say is that you are really hung up on the Jewish law. Jesus brought grace. He never asked anyone to fear him. He was witnessed by more than 500 people at the pentecost after his resurrection.
What does grace mean to you in the light of these verses?
Bible: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 5:6)
There's a good way to loose it -- get back under the law again.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Wow, why would I want to be under the death sentence through the law? That's sheer stupidity.
Bible: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:6)
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
I think the bible makes it clear that Grace is the necessary condition for entering heaven. The law don't cut it. Sorry Snakelord. Nice try.
Somehow you keep getting me confused with the jewish people. I am not a Jew. I am a gentile.
All I can say is that you are really hung up on the Jewish law. Jesus brought grace. He never asked anyone to fear him. He was witnessed by more than 500 people at the pentecost after his resurrection.
What does grace mean to you in the light of these verses?
Bible: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 5:6)
There's a good way to loose it -- get back under the law again.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Wow, why would I want to be under the death sentence through the law? That's sheer stupidity.
Bible: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:6)
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
I think the bible makes it clear that Grace is the necessary condition for entering heaven. The law don't cut it. Sorry Snakelord. Nice try.
Somehow you keep getting me confused with the jewish people. I am not a Jew. I am a gentile.
Clinton is the only one that was interested in the subject of terrorism, and attacked training bases in Afghanistan with cruise missiles. Yet, when Bush got into office, he spent most of the time on vacation. His Attorney General didn't even have the subject on his top ten list of things to do! They refused to meet with the administration's experts on terrorism, even though Clinton left them with a warning that this will be one of the most important security issue existing today. Bush junior went into office saying that he didn't believe in nation building, then attacked the wrong nation (Iraq), and gave away the rebuilding contracts to his high powered corporate friends. You know, the Republicans felt that the most important issue of the day was wether Clinton lied about a fucking blow job! And when when Clinton bombed Afghanistan, the Republicans painted it as "wag the dog". THEY are the ones that are constantly wrong, and furthermore, worse than just wrong, they are conspiring to destroy our system of government in favor of a religious plutocracy.Woodycortex said:
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Woody: Somehow you keep getting me confused with the jewish people. I am not a Jew. I am a gentile.
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M*W: Woody, didn't you say recently that if you "weren't a Christian, you'd be a Jew?" Now you say you're a "gentile."
The definition of "gentile" is:
Noun 1. gentile - a person who does not acknowledge your God
heathen, infidel, pagan
nonreligious person - a person who does not manifest devotion to a deity
paynim - a heathen; a person who is not a Christian (especially a Muslim)
idol worshiper, idolater, idoliser, idolizer - a person who worships idols
Do you still consider yourself to be a "gentile?"
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M*W: Woody, didn't you say recently that if you "weren't a Christian, you'd be a Jew?" Now you say you're a "gentile."
The definition of "gentile" is:
Noun 1. gentile - a person who does not acknowledge your God
heathen, infidel, pagan
nonreligious person - a person who does not manifest devotion to a deity
paynim - a heathen; a person who is not a Christian (especially a Muslim)
idol worshiper, idolater, idoliser, idolizer - a person who worships idols
Do you still consider yourself to be a "gentile?"